Support NeoGAF

[UrbanRats]

I feel as if it's a self fufilling prophecy, all people watch is blockbusters, then complain that Blockbusters are the only thing that makes money.

This is a... blockbuster though.

 

[Warm Machine]

They finally invented AC in 2049.

I was disappointed that many interiors were not fogged and that spotlights didn’t break through windows here and there.

 

[SCULLIBUNDO]

This is a... blockbuster though.

No. The hope was for it to be a blockbuster.

Blockbuster is a designation given to a wildly successful movie.

 

[Oberon]

Some of this discussion smells of unironic "mansplaining", specially about a movie written by men, directed by men and produced by men. Like those anime fans that say that the "fanservice in Evangelion doesn't count because it's meant to be satire"; kinda sad.

These kind of posts are always annoying. Does "mansplayning" mean "I don't like your opinion and you're probably bad person in disguise"?

 

[Creamium]

Take it to the spoiler thread, just answered you and posted a bunch of spoilers... quick edit, hope no-one read it.

Yeah wrong thread, edited my post. You can remove that quote if you like

 

[JCHandsom]

"It didn't bother me so it shouldn't bother you."

Blade Runner is a dystopia. Does its world trade in orientalism, male gaze, and a lack of representation? Absolutely, and it does so in order to show how bad things are, not to endorse or condone it. That's what the quote I posted means.

Blade Runner is not the type of story to right all these wrongs over the course of one narrative. Even the "happy" ending of the theatrical cut of Blade Runner still left Replicants at the mercy of the system, a devastated environment, an all-consuming commercial culture, no visible female/minority persons of authority, and cultural appropriation out the wazoo.

Ursula K. Le Guin wrote an essay titled "The Modest One" on Dick's work about how he, and by extension the original Blade Runner and 2049, offers glimmers of hope in dark times through relatively small redemptive acts.

...And therefore Dick can compress all the shock and splendor of salvation into a few characteristically offhand sentences, and three plain words:

‘One of the Bleekman females shyly offered him a cigarette from those she carried. Thanking her, he accepted it. They continued on.
And as they moved along, Manfred Steiner felt something strange happening inside him. He was changing.'

The shy offer of a cigarette is a throughly Dickian gesture of salvation. Nobody ever saves the Galactic Empire from the Tentacled Andromedans. Something has indeed been saved, but only a human soul. We are about as far from the panoply of space opera as we can get. And yet Dick is a science fiction writer - not borrowing the trappings to deck out old nonsense with shiny chromium fittings, but using the new metaphors because he needs them; using them with power and beauty, because they are the language appropriate to what he wants to say, to us, about ourselves."

(the above quote is shamelessly stolen from another GAF post I copied but can't find the source)

 

[Turbo Killer]

It's too bad. I was excited to see the movie, but decided against it after reading about it.

Unfortunately, I'm not a fan of supporting by buying tickets a movie that is obviously male gaze AND chock full of Orientalism.

I'll watch it when it becomes available on Netflix.

You’re gonna waste 3 hours of your time on a movie that offends you? Time is money after all.

 

[Mix Master]

This is a... blockbuster though.

I mean a "made for all ages" blockbuster movie.

 

[7Th]

I said in a different thread but this is like saying The Handmaid's Tale is misogynist. The movie is absolutely interested in gender and perceptions of women, but I can't come up with any reading where the film itself is actually misogynist.

It's not about what the movie what's to say, it's about how it says it.

 

[Stinkles]

Just got back. Lovely film.

The ai/hooker scene was incredible.

I felt like that relationship didn't get enough closure.

 

[JCHandsom]

I said in a different thread but this is like saying The Handmaid's Tale is misogynist. The movie is absolutely interested in gender and perceptions of women, but I can't come up with any reading where the film itself is actually misogynist.

It's not about what the movie what's to say, it's about how it says it.

Exactly

 

[Deleted member 80556]

Arrival is supposed to be a great movie or something? Was eh at best for me with one of the most stupid twists ever.

Spoiler

She decided her daughter had to die of horrible pain caused by cancer, what a hero.

Uh, I don't think that's supposed to be the takeaway.

Spoiler

She was willing to suffer the experience of losing her daughter again just to have those years alongside her.

 

[robotrock]

Just got back. Lovely film.

The ai/hooker scene was incredible.

I felt like that relationship didn't get enough closure.

Spoiler

the big hologram calling k "joe" is all the closure you need

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

When people complained about Horizon, the most diverse video game I've ever played, I realized that there was no pleasing some people. And that this is just a side effect of becoming more inclusive and progressive as a society (which is worth it, obviously)

Horizon has problems. Fighting games are about as inclusive as Horizon and they still have problems. The most inclusive work can still have problems. It isn't about "pleasing everybody". It's about learning and improving. Horizon's mistakes don't make it a lesser. It just prevents it from being perfect. All it says is that your heart was in a good place.

 

[More_Badass]

Blade Runner is a dystopia. Does its world trade in orientalism, male gaze, and a lack of representation? Absolutely, and it does so in order to show how bad things are, not to endorse or condone it. That's what the quote I posted means.

Blade Runner is not the type of story to right all these wrongs over the course of one narrative. Even the "happy" ending of the theatrical cut of Blade Runner still left Replicants at the mercy of the system, a devastated environment, an all-consuming commercial culture, no visible female/minority persons of authority, and cultural appropriation out the wazoo.

Exactly. Said this in the other thread on the topic of dystopia

That's the beauty and horror of dystopian and other sci-fi stories. Yes, they can be horrible bleak places. Uncomfortable looks at worlds that might be disgustingly similar to our own with a few tweaks and changes, Peoples exploited and abused, lives devalued, culture and morals ripped to shreds.

But they're not asking to approve and accept these things, but rather showing what we should strive to avoid. By showing us the darkest, cruelest, most depressing and pathetic places humanity could go, these stories beg us, plead with us, to look closely, to not look away, and make sure we never bring such visions to life.

And given these times, people need to be looking very closely indeed.

(I just watched Brazil for the first time a few hours ago, so I got dystopian commentary on my mind)

 

[Moonkid]

It's a bit of a stretch to say that the film had any stance on representation or orientalism, at least not as much as stuff about gender.

 

[wwm0nkey]

Just got back. Lovely film.

The ai/hooker scene was incredible.

I felt like that relationship didn't get enough closure.

That scene, cells and the final car scenes were my favorites. Loved the "sync" effect they used in the Joi love scene though

 

[Bobo Dakes]

Blade Runner is a dystopia. Does its world trade in orientalism, male gaze, and a lack of representation? Absolutely, and it does so in order to show how bad things are, not to endorse or condone it. That's what the quote I posted means.

Blade Runner is not the type of story to right all these wrongs over the course of one narrative. Even the "happy" ending of the theatrical cut of Blade Runner still left Replicants at the mercy of the system, a devastated environment, an all-consuming commercial culture, no visible female/minority persons of authority, and cultural appropriation out the wazoo.

Ursula K. Le Guin wrote an essay titled "The Modest One" on Dick's work about how he, and by extension the original Blade Runner and 2049, offers glimmers of hope in dark times through relatively small redemptive acts.



(the above quote is shamelessly stolen from another GAF post I copied but can't find the source)

You know, I used to really hate the term "mansplain", but holy fuck is it prevalent. Wouldn't this response been better aimed at the posters who said there wasn't any orientalism or misogyny in the movie?

I was just sarcastically responding to a counter-argument that I've heard used over and over for movies that have gotten this complaint and calling it for what it was.

 

[Chichikov]

If I recall, the original's settings strong Japanese influence was having in the US at the time due to being on the forefront of consumer technology. The setting for the entire film is basically what they thought the future was going to be like due to the Cold War, current trends, and influence.

I think cyberpunk in general has a problematic view of Japan (and China, because hey, it's all Asia and "yellow people", what's the difference?) that was fueled in no small part by that 80s fear that OMG Japan is going to take over the world. I don't think the original Blade Runner is the worst offender in that trend (I have not seen 2049 yet) and it certainly not something that bothered me when I first seen it. But at the same time it's hard to deny that the film portray an America that is heavily influenced by Asia and it's not exactly showed it to be good. It doesn't of course make the case for a cause and effect here, but it's still a dystopian future which tapped, at least to a degree, the western fears of losing cultural dominance.

It's also worth noting that this view of Asia is that of someone who spend 10 minutes in the most touristy parts of Tokyo and Hong Kong.

I don't think it ruins Blade Runner or anything, and for sure, on a visual level it executed this masterfully, but I think it's something worth discussing because we can do better.

 

[Curious Puppy]

Horizon has problems. Fighting games are about as inclusive as Horizon and they still have problems. The most inclusive work can still have problems. It isn't about "pleasing everybody". It's about learning and improving. Horizon's mistakes don't make it a lesser. It just prevents it from being perfect. All it says is that your heart was in a good place.

Nothing can be perfect to everyone. It’s impossible.

 

[JCHandsom]

You know, I used to really hate the term "mansplain", but holy fuck is it prevalent. Wouldn't this response been better aimed at the posters who said there wasn't any orientalism or misogyny in the movie?

I was just sarcastically responding to a counter-argument that I've heard used over and over for movies that have gotten this complaint and calling it for what it was.

I've been jumping in and out of the thread and the comment I made was in response to a comment I saw get a lot of responses. I in no way intended to aim my comment in favor of the people who said there wasn't any orientalism or misogyny in the movie.

To them I say that they're unmistakably there, and that they're there with a specific purpose. Just because someone likes a thing doesn't mean it doesn't have bad things in it, even if they are there to make point.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

Nothing can be perfect to everyone. It's impossible.

As long as it's not toxic or problematic then it's fine. Again, as long as your heart is in the right place.

 

[Mix Master]

Nothing can be perfect to everyone. It’s impossible.

By pleasing everyone you please no one.

 

[JCHandsom]

I think cyberpunk in general has a problematic view of Japan (and China, because hey, it's all Asia and "yellow people", what's the difference?) that was fueled in no small part by that 80s fear that OMG Japan is going to take over the world. I don't think the original Blade Runner is the worst offender in that trend (I have not seen 2049 yet) and it certainly not something that bothered me when I first seen it. But at the same time it's hard to deny that the film portray an America that is heavily influenced by Asia and it's not exactly showed it to be good. It doesn't of course make the case for a cause and effect here, but it's still a dystopian future which tapped, at least to a degree, the western fears of losing cultural dominance.

It's also worth noting that this view of Asia is that of someone who spend 10 minutes in the most touristy parts of Tokyo and Hong Kong.

I don't think it ruins Blade Runner or anything, and for sure, on a visual level it executed this visual masterfully, but I think it's something worth discussing because we can do better.

This is an important point I failed to include in my earlier post, ie that the vision of American Cyber-dystopia being "Asian-ified" is rooted in deeply unsettling narratives of racial hierarchies.

Even thought the film is aiming to show that (culturally-appropriated) future as bad, the reasons the thing is conceived as bad in the first place deserve to be addressed.

 

[H.Cornerstone]

Your not wrong. I don't think 2049 is severely offensive but it's another one of those movies that places minorities in the background.

What if I told you the actress who plays Joi was born in Cuba?

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

What if I told you the actress who plays Joi was born in Cuba?

Could have fooled me.

 

[JCHandsom]

Could have fooled me.

There's a moment, when K is interacting with her, where a menu pops up that shows her selected ethnicity as Cuban.

 

[Curious Puppy]

By pleasing everyone you please no one.

Exactly.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

Exactly.

I just want you know that people who criticize inclusive stuff more often still love it.

That's where you're failing to grasp at.

 

[More_Badass]

You know, I used to really hate the term "mansplain", but holy fuck is it prevalent. Wouldn't this response been better aimed at the posters who said there wasn't any orientalism or misogyny in the movie?

I was just sarcastically responding to a counter-argument that I've heard used over and over for movies that have gotten this complaint and calling it for what it was.

Those things are absolutely there. Dystopian fiction, as well as other speculative fiction, often presents worlds and societies where such immoral, inhumane, disturbing, and evil elements are prevalent as a mirror of our current society, and show why these things are bad and harmful and must never be accepted or allowed to flourish.

Because this is the kind of world that could happen if it is left unchecked or accepted or ignored.

They are not presented as ideals to accept and approve of, but to reject and criticize.

 

[Fancyarcher]

No. The hope was for it to be a blockbuster.

Blockbuster is a designation given to a wildly successful movie.

Some people consider big budget films to be blockbusters, regardless of box office. It's often a misused word, lets just say.

 

[Curious Puppy]

I just want you know that people who criticize inclusive stuff more often still love it.

That's where you're failing to grasp at.

Really depends on the context, and I see on a constant basis people dismissing films wholesale for not meeting their standard of inclusivity, even several about Blade Runner. The focus of any filmmaker and film should be to state their point of view with no reservations and illustrate that point of view however they see fit, if you put an attempt to please everyone and make sure no one is offended before anything else, your film has a much better chance at not having an identity. I think films should challenge and confront people. Most of my favorites like Apocalypse Now, The Hurt Locker, and Blade Runner have been polarizing.

 

[Chichikov]

Really depends on the context, and I see on a constant basis people dismissing films wholesale for not meeting their standard of inclusivity, even several about Blade Runner. The focus of any filmmaker and film should be to state their point of view with no reservations and illustrate that point of view however they see fit, if you put an attempt to please everyone and make sure no one is offended before anything else, your film has a much better chance at not having an identity. I think films should challenge and confront people. Most of my favorites like Apocalypse Now, The Hurt Locker, and Blade Runner have been polarizing.

Pointing something that bother you in a film is not a demand that it should please everyone, not sure how you even got there.
You don't have to agree with that specific criticism, but why not address the actual point argument being raised?
Which again, is not "the film should please every single moviegoer".

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

Really depends on the context, and I see on a constant basis people dismissing films wholesale for not meeting their standard of inclusivity, even several about Blade Runner. The focus of any filmmaker and film should be to state their point of view with no reservations and illustrate that point of view however they see fit, if you put an attempt to please everyone and make sure no one is offended before anything else, your film has a much better chance at not having an identity. I think films should challenge and confront people. Most of my favorites like Apocalypse Now, The Hurt Locker, and Blade Runner have been polarizing.

Challenging and confronting people doesn't mean hanging on to tropes and leaving out certain demographics.

I think it's worth to discuss these things as to why this movie isn't successful at the box office.

 

[nkarafo]

I haven't seen the movie yet but from what i hear it portrays some form of sexism? Does it mean the movie is sexist because of this? Portraying something doesn't mean it supports it. That's like saying all these films that portray slavery are racist. I don't remember any movie lately that didn't portray slavers as the villains and slaves as the victims.

Sounds simple but for some reason it's hard for so many people. They just see something completely out of context and attack it. It's a pity that the movie has to suffer financially from this.

 

[DavidDesu]

To derail the discussion a little bit, but this underperforming blockbuster has the greatest scene transition of all time.

Embers to snow to city.

 

[KingV]

I would say it's very much not an accident that in robot-themed slavery analogues the robots tend to be white.

I believe there were other races of replicants shown in a few scenes, but to the point they didn’t do anything.

To a point, it’s a product of being a sequel. I do think they should have had more poc in the film, but they are going to keep the Japanese text and Asian inspired designs for no other reason than the original film had them.

Similarly, this is why Pan Am still exists in the film.

 

[More_Badass]

To derail the discussion a little bit, but this underperforming blockbuster has the greatest scene transition of all time.

Embers to snow to city.

That might be my favorite imagery I’ve seen all year.

 

[hollomat]

It's too bad. I was excited to see the movie, but decided against it after reading about it.

Unfortunately, I'm not a fan of supporting by buying tickets a movie that is obviously male gaze AND chock full of Orientalism.

I'll watch it when it becomes available on Netflix.

If it ends you so much, why are you going to support it at all?

Movie was fantastic and you’re completely wrong about the above.

 

[Zetta]

Spoiler

the big hologram calling k "joe" is all the closure you need

This moment hurt to hear, felt bad for the man.

 

[Compsiox]

So what was it for the entire weekend?

 

[HariKari]

So what was it for the entire weekend?

$32.7m

At 100m WW entering this weekend.

 

[Compsiox]

$32.7m

At 100m WW entering this weekend.

damn. Great film though.

 

[bionic77]

Just saw it.

I think I might like it more than the original.

Doubt it will be as influential or revered but damn that was a good movie.

I do kind of hate how I am always on the side of the androids. Human beings suck.

 

[Eylos]

$32.7m

At 100m WW entering this weekend.

So 55m to be even.

There's 2 countries to be released:

China 27 October 2017
Japan 27 October 2017

Go China and Japan.

 

[HariKari]

So 55m to be even.

More like $200m minimum.

 

[Turbo Killer]

To derail the discussion a little bit, but this underperforming blockbuster has the greatest scene transition of all time.

Embers to snow to city.

Yes! I thought I was the only one who adored that scene.

 

[Jarmel]

To derail the discussion a little bit, but this underperforming blockbuster has the greatest scene transition of all time.

Embers to snow to city.

Yea that was gud. Real gud.

 

[Opto]

Yikes.

This is the worst hot take.

This is dumb, how do you know you agree with something you have read if you haven't seen the thing they are talking about?

I think you should see it and form your own opinion, but it's your money.

None of this posts attempt at all to mitigate backslashbunny's concerns, and boil down to "nuh uh"

 

[Stinkles]

Spoiler

the big hologram calling k "joe" is all the closure you need

Oh I know but I wanted some acknowledgement for the two women involved not just the main love story.