PedroLumpy said:
Newbies entering the game 3 months down the line? Enjoy getting wiped not only by people who understand the game better, but also have more options with weapons or abilities, and they have stronger specializations. Or how about balancing? Balancing things when you just have one sandbox is hard enough, now you're trying to balance things with everyone coming in with different weapons, abilities and specializations? Nigh impossible.
Yeah, but dont you see? A progression system makes it so that "3 months down the line" matter happens later, and not from day 1.
I think you're just kinda ignoring the fact that the devs of this game saw fit to have an unlock system, and they designed the game around THAT, not "All tools unlocked, find what you like in the sandbox, and go at it!" They COULD have done that, sure, but we'd probably have fewer, more focused weapon types and abilities, if that's what they wanted to do.
I think we'll see, as the full game releases, a much different balance to the game. One that favors certain levels to play together, and then transforms the game gradually as you raise in ranks. If matchmaking deals with this properly, low, mid, and high level players should each have their own flavors of combat, and this should give the game much more long-term appeal, rather than the simply having the end-game sandbox being the only way to play, from day 1.
But we're arguing a fall choice here. There's nothing to say we can't both have what we want. Place a little unlock button somewhere, I press it and get everything, you don't and you get your progression curve, everyone's happy.
That wouldn't work in an online multiplayer game of this magnitude. The progression is purposely implimented to ease people into the game. If, from day one, you and a bunch of other gamers could basically throw yourselves to max level, while the other half of the community goes at it slower, that is detrimental to the entire community as a whole, as now it's unbalanced from day one.
Sure, it's unbalanced to a degree, as soon as some people play harder than others, but not in such an exaggerated way.
For the record, I never thought the game would have a progression system like this from previews. I thought it was going to be more like you envisioned, a very set set of weapons and abilities, and the whole game would just be about selecting character that had those abilities, and playing it from the onset.
But it's not like that. I'm mostly happy it's not, too! I love progression in games (dislike forced grinding, though), and I think this game, so far, feels more like it favors actual progress, rather than grind for the sake of grind.
Part of that stems from the fact that I don't know what lies ahead. Every item is a new surprise, and a fresh addition to gameplay. It enhances the experience, because it feels like the game is just getting deeper and deeper, when it started out feeling deep.
Even after then initial "THAT'S BROKEN! ARGH!!!" feeling of facing something new, I'm also seeing that MOST of what's here has a logical counter. With the ability to change loadouts every spawn, I really like this. It keeps the gameplay fresh, rather than the classic "Well, they picked the better options, WE'RE SCREWED!" aspect that such systems could create.
I don't want to say too much on it all after this, as I know these kind of discussion can end up in an endless loop, and everything is still in flux, as this is just a beta. I think we've both said enough to let the devs know how 2 opposite sides react to their decisions. Don't want to take it too far, and derail the thread into opposing game philosophy.
SAB CA and Pedro are both right, a progression system can be used to introduce new mechanics, and get people "Filling bars" and those are good things, but I think what I've seen here, the prorgression in Hybrid favors those who play more, way too much. The most egregious example is the passive buffs, which see some pretty dramatic improvements after a few levels. A new player with a level 1 armor buff going up against a dude with a level 5 armor buff is at a serious disadvantage. That generally gives the person who's played longer an extra one-two shots to get right.
You hit onto my major point with this; That a solid progress system just helps a game, and it's community growth and spirit. And you also acknowledge the other side, with the fact that it can backfire, if done wrong, which I agree with as well.
I think 5th Cell has done a great job overall, with the progress, but I also agree some of it might need more balance. Kinda hard to say exactly HOW (higher power shotgun earlier? mix up buffs a bit? Make the Preyon harder to get? EASIER to get?), but hopefully, testing in the wild makes some of this clear for them.
For the weapons, I think they are generally okay. It seems to me like that second sniper rifle is OP (though I haven't used it, it seems like if someone on the other team has it, we are going to have a bad time). I just wish a few more of the "break people out of cover options" were available early on. I mean, you get frag nades (but a sniper can set up upside down) or the shotgun/armour combo (but the level 2 sniper seems like it still one shots you until you have a level 2 armour buff) but that's about it. So on defense grid, a good sniper pretty much will lock your team down. I'm not sure how exactly how that could be countered though. A lot of this could be solved by stronger matchmaking though, so I never feel like I lost because I was underpowered.
Yeah, it's good to keep in mind that we have a small player base due to beta, so it's much more likely that we're getting put VS opponents we might never see in the full game, at certain levels. I'd like to see options to set level limits, or modes that force gameplay at certain levels, to allow only certain options into games. A bunch of mutators for matches could go a long way for a game like this.
I wonder if there are floating grenades in later levels? I would like a way to 'nade upsidedown snipers, as well. Would also be nice to get some active camo, to make it easier to advance on snipers in stages like Defense Array.
Still enjoying the game though, it hits a nice combination of simple gameplay, complex tactics. Wish I could get a party with some decent people (and when I did get a party it refused to match us until we split up), as I think the game would really shine. I love how each game is short, focussed and sweet. A game of Halo or COD generally runs 15 minutes, each match here is about 5-8 minutes of concentrated fun.
Aye, agreed. It's a great balance of twitchy arcadey fun, like something that would have been pretty comfortable alongside a Tokyo Wars arcade cabinet, or alongside Outtrigger on Dreamcast. I find such games easy to play for longer amounts of time, because it feels like you can get into them swiftly, have your fun, and go onto other things, without feeling like you have to rededicate a week of play to it, to feel like you got your time's worth out of it.
I will pm a code to the 1st person to quote me
I have a friend I'd love to get into the Beta, so I'd appreciate it, but understand it if you wanted to give it to someone without access at all