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[Dance Inferno]

Betrayed your true colors with this one, I'm afraid.

Hamas is an internationally recognized terrorist organisation and this man was at the helm of terrorism against Israeli civilians for a decade and more.

You can't just dismiss off-hand the fact that Israel is trying (and succeeding) to target and neutralize terrorism that is a genuine and current threat to it's civilians.

I hate it when people get into this bullshit semantic discussion of what is a terrorist and what is not.

The European Union,[8][9] the United States,[10] Canada, Israel and Japan classify Hamas as a terrorist organization,[11][12] while the Arab nations, as well as some other countries including Russia[13] and Turkey,[14] do not.

So a bunch of Western countries consider Hamas a terrorist organization. Big surprise. It doesn't hide the fact that Israel is killing probably 10x the civilians that Hamas is. That's not to justify what Hamas is doing, but in my eyes Israel is a much worse offender of human rights and a much larger agent of death and destruction than Hamas is. Whether or not they're considered a "terrorist organization" doesn't change jack.

I really can't understand this, it's quite unreal. People on here actually believe that Israel is involved in some kind of slaughter of palestinians, or ethnic cleansing or something. Only problem is they seem to have failed on a massive scale.

Listen here, Israel can shut off the electricity it provides to Gaza and then go in and raze all hell till Hamas never dreams of firing a rocket at a populated civilian area again. They don't.

So they could be doing much worse, but they're not. That's a defense of Israel? They're doing plenty to disrupt people's lives and livelihoods already.

 

[Gentleman Jack]

Betrayed your true colors with this one, I'm afraid.

It's fascinating that when I twice point out the civilian casualties that your primary concerns are the number of rockets fired and the noun I use to describe the IDF's named targets.

I seriously doubt that the human toll of the blockade, the nonstop settling of occupied lands and collateral deaths in IDF strikes are in any way successful at neutralizing terrorism aimed at Israeli citizens.

If they really are trying to target and neutralize terrorism, then they should know they're complete shit at it.

 

[beast786]

So executing homosexuals isn't grounds for being considered morally corrupt to you? Interesting.

Iran doesn't have a law for LGBT execution
http://www.sfbaytimes.com/index.php?sec=article&article_id=9170

Yes, they amazingly backward in treating for LGBT.And needs major overhaul.

But not to the level of killing random innocent kids and people with missiles, tanks and bombs ... you know like the Israeli strategy that you very well defined.

 

[Neko Mimi Mode]

I hate it when people get into this bullshit semantic discussion of what is a terrorist and what is not.

So a bunch of Western countries consider Hamas a terrorist organization. Big surprise.

Yeah, who cares what the US and EU think anyway?

It doesn't hide the fact that Israel is killing probably 10x the civilians that Hamas is

Hyperbole.

It's fascinating that when I twice point out the civilian casualties that your primary concerns are the number of rockets fired and the noun I use to describe the IDF's named targets.

I seriously doubt that the human toll of the blockade, the nonstop settling of occupied lands and collateral deaths in IDF strikes are in any way successful at neutralizing terrorism aimed at Israeli citizens.

If they really are trying to target and neutralize terrorism, then they should know they're complete shit at it.

You're pretty good at telling Israel what it shouldn't do, but seem to fall short when it comes to telling them what they should.

Pack it in and call it a day?

Iran doesn't have a law for LGBT execution

Wrong.

"They could flatten your house at the flick of a switch, so stop complaining when they throw a brick through your window every so often" isn't a very good defence of Israel's actions, dude.

Not what I was trying to get at.

I'm surprised you of all people wouldn't be in favor of Israel taking out Jabari, but maybe I had you pegged wrong.

 

[CHEEZMO™]

Listen here, Israel can shut off the electricity it provides to Gaza and then go in and raze all hell till Hamas never dreams of firing a rocket at a populated civilian area again. They don't.

"They could flatten your house at the flick of a switch, so stop complaining when they throw a brick through your window every so often" isn't a very good defence of Israel's actions, dude.

 

[Vagabundo]

If they do go ahead with their bid I hope this helps people see exactly why recognition is needed.

They must be really freaked out by the ICC.

 

[el retorno]

Yep, its just a stupid strategy to kill innocent civilians and kids....

Lol at iran. I cant recall Iranian government occupying and killing innocent civilian compare to the Israeli amazing track record.

Israel doesn't intentionally target civilians. That was my point. They attack Gaza like this and they get these type of photos which hurt them, thats why its a stupid strategy. But the fact that innocents die when they attack military targets doesn't mean that they're "killing innocent civilians" in the way thats normally characterized.

And you really think Iran is some peaceful giant, they're support for the syrian regime, hezbollah, the crushing of their own civilians?

They must be really freaked out by the ICC.

They're not a party to it and the SC won't bring charges.

 

[Dance Inferno]

Yeah, who cares what the US and EU think anyway?

Hyperbole.

What a riveting argument.

But the fact that innocents die when they attack military targets doesn't mean that they're "killing innocent civilians" in the way thats normally characterized.

Except they are, quite literally, killing innocent civilians.

 

[SKINNER!]

I'm surprised you of all people wouldn't be in favor of Israel taking out Jabari, but maybe I had you pegged wrong.

Are you implying that Cheezmo is a terrorist sympathiser based on what he said in this thread? hmm, strange...surely you don't...because there's nothing he has stated which highlights this.

 

[Dude Abides]

I'm actually fine with the PA getting UN recognition, in fact I hope they do get it.

People here seem to forget that the PA and Hamas are essentially at war with each other as well.

That wasn't your position just a few hours ago.

It's a unilateral action that the PA agreed not to take in the Oslo Accords.

The land is disputed and either side taking unilateral steps only compounds the issue.

 

[Jackpot]

Israel doesn't intentionally target civilians. That was my point.

Israeli soldiers have testified that they were ordered to eradicate civilians in areas in previous "incursions" into Gaza.

 

[Gentleman Jack]

You're pretty good at telling Israel what it shouldn't do, but seem to fall short when it comes to telling them what they should.

And you have a superb grip on changing the subject when you can no longer defend the indefensible. How silly of me to think you actually wanted to talk about this latest and most cartoonish of Israeli propaganda on FB and Twitter as a way to paper over the horrors wrought in Gaza this week.

 

[MThanded]

https://twitter.com/BBCPaulAdams/status/268810938730311680

 

[el retorno]

Except they are, quite literally, killing innocent civilians.

So does every country in war. When their actions are characterized as "killing innocent civilians" its usually implied that that is their objective rather than an unfortunate result. That is the difference between terrorism and a guerrilla warfare. Intent and choice of target.

 

[CHEEZMO™]

Not what I was trying to get at.

I fail to see how it wasn't. What were you trying to say, then?

 

[SKINNER!]

B-b-b-but that's the BBC! Clearly Palestinian propaganda. Not a credible source.

 

[Canis lupus]

even WW2 is getting in on the fun:

https://twitter.com/RealTimeWWII

"Livetweeting the 2nd World War, as it happens on this date & time in 1940, & for 5 years to come. "

People are so bizarrely funny.

 

[Griffin]

Wrong.

Two men were publicly hanged in the northern town of Gorgan for homosexual acts in November 2005.

Rape, not homosexual acts.

In July 2006 two youths were hanged for homosexuality in north-eastern Iran.

They were executed after being convicted by the court of having raped a 13-year old boy, not for being homosexual.

 

[Vagabundo]

They're not a party to it and the SC won't bring charges.

If Palestine becomes a state, and signs on to the ICC, then crimes committed within their territory can be brought before the court. This seems to be Abbas' gameplan.

 

[maquiladora]

10:52 P.M. Security Cabinet authorized the IDF to draft reservists and expand Gaza operation (Barak Ravid)

It seems like there will be a significant ground operation.

 

[el retorno]

https://twitter.com/BBCPaulAdams/status/268810938730311680

Why did the guy bring his kid to Palestine?

If Palestine becomes a state, and signs on to the ICC, then crimes committed within their territory can be brought before the court. This seems to be Abbas' gameplan.

Yeah abbas's isn't going to bring war crimes charges. That's not his gameplan. He gameplan is creating a palestinian state.

 

[Agent Unknown]

Why did the guy bring his kid to Palestine?

Your replies are pathetic.

 

[MThanded]

Why did the guy bring his kid to Palestine?

I'm assuming they live there. BBC probably has correspondents in Palestine that are from Palestine.

 

[NH Apache]

http://twitter.com/IDFSpokesperson/status/268804301923692544/photo/1

Not condoning actions, but I'm surprised there isn't more anger against Hamas in this thread. They are the ones setting up in the middle of cities and shooting at Israel.

They pick their sites to shoot from with the knowledge that Israel will attack that spot and it seems like they hope for collateral damage because it paints Israel in a negative light. It seems to go ignored that these people are shooting rockets at civilians in Israel as well.

Again, not condoning Israel's actions, but can you expect them to sit there and just try and shoot every rocket down forever?

 

[Griffin]

Why did the guy bring his kid to Palestine?

Maybe he lives in Gaza, just like many other parents and children.

 

[el retorno]

If Palestine becomes a state, and signs on to the ICC, then crimes committed within their territory can be brought before the court. This seems to be Abbas' gameplan.

Yeah abbas's isn't going to bring war crimes charges. That's not his gameplan. He gameplan is creating a palestinian state.

 

[Neko Mimi Mode]

That wasn't your position just a few hours ago.

I can see why Israel would be against it, though personally I am for it. Not necessarily for the same reasons as you, of course.

I fail to see how it wasn't. What were you trying to say, then?

That Israel responds to terrorism by attacking terrorists. If Israel wanted to punish the collective, as many are falsely accusing here, they could do so and be done with it.

Your analogy of throwing a brick through a window is a strawman.

Are you implying that Cheezmo is a terrorist sympathiser based on what he said in this thread? hmm, strange...surely you don't...because there's nothing he has stated which highlights this.

No I actually thought he was quite pro-Israel. Now not so sure.

Rape, not homosexual acts.

They were executed after being convicted by the court of having raped a 13-year old boy, not for being homosexual.

Plenty of evidence to the contrary here

Not condoning actions, but I'm surprised there isn't more anger against Hamas in this thread. They are the ones setting up in the middle of cities and shooting at Israel.

This is NeoGAF, dude.

 

[SKINNER!]

Am I the only one surprised that Operation Cloud Pillar comes almost exacly 4 years after Operation Cast Lead?

EDIT: No, I'm not stating that it's a conspiracy.

No I actually thought he was quite pro-Israel. Now not so sure.

What, in your definition, defines a person that's pro-Israel?

 

[commedieu]

http://twitter.com/IDFSpokesperson/status/268804301923692544/photo/1

Not condoning actions, but I'm surprised there isn't more anger against Hamas in this thread. They are the ones setting up in the middle of cities and shooting at Israel.

They pick their sites to shoot from with the knowledge that Israel will attack that spot and it seems like they hope for collateral damage because it paints Israel in a negative light. It seems to go ignored that these people are shooting rockets at civilians in Israel as well.

Again, not condoning Israel's actions, but can you expect them to sit there and just try and shoot every rocket down forever?

Its all they can do. They don't have bases in optimal positions to destroy israel. And Israel is aware of this. They fire back where they are fired from. Both sides know they are trying to kill innocent people, and hit military targets as well. There is no alternative for palestine strikes to originate from.

This situation needs what the UN/NATO were setup for, to intervene. This is costing so many lives over this bullshit. As far as im concerned, make the holy lands available to everyone. Have some USA/UN/NATO carriers waiting for one side to start shit, and bomb them from space. Yes, hyperbolic, but these 2 places are acting like children, and they have been forever. It needs to stop, neither side wants to compromise, the international world of peace needs to force a compromise on them both.

 

[Dude Abides]

I can see why Israel would be against it, though personally I am for it. Not necessarily for the same reasons as you, of course.

I'm indifferent. This conflict will continue in the same general pattern long after all of us are in the ground, UN theater or no.

 

[Agent Unknown]

.....

How about this: Just take a deep breath, think to yourself about the value of all human life and then try saying that both Hamas AND Israel have a lot of blood on their hands. Just curious if you're in any way capable of saying something sensible, simple, obvious and balanced like that?

 

[Dance Inferno]

Its all they can do. They don't have bases in optimal positions to destroy israel. And Israel is aware of this. They fire back where they are fired from. Both sides know they are trying to kill innocent people, and hit military targets as well. There is no alternative for palestine strikes to originate from.

This situation needs what the UN/NATO were setup for, to intervene. This is costing so many lives over this bullshit. As far as im concerned, make the holy lands available to everyone. Have some USA/UN/NATO carriers waiting for one side to start shit, and bomb them from space. Yes, hyperbolic, but these 2 places are acting like children, and they have been forever. It needs to stop, neither side wants to compromise, the international world of peace needs to force a compromise on them both.

Do you really think the US will agree to any military action against Israel? That's probably one of the largest sticking points in this whole saga.

 

[el retorno]

I'm assuming they live there. The BBC probably has correspondents in Palestine that are from Palestine.

I didn't mean for that blaming him but rather just asking. I assumed he was a british correspondent and figured the BBC probably has rules against something like that. Its a warzone. If they guy is Palestinian then its much more understandable why the son was there.

 

[pax217]

Missile defense. It shoots down missiles. The US I think helped fund it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Dome

I love how that Wikipedia page has links to pages of Palestinian attacks on Israel by year lol

This is NeoGAF, dude.

Precisely.

 

[Bear]

Betrayed your true colors with this one, I'm afraid.

Hamas is an internationally recognized terrorist organisation and this man was at the helm of terrorism against Israeli civilians for a decade and more.

You can't just dismiss off-hand the fact that Israel is trying (and succeeding) to target and neutralize terrorism that is a genuine and current threat to it's civilians.

Not by most of the world. Israel and the US do (and a handful of their closest allies). International recognition would imply that this view is widely held in most of the world, or at least by the UN, and this is certainly not the case.

It doesn't hide the fact that Israel is killing probably 10x the civilians that Hamas is.

Hyperbole.

Actually, it's the opposite. The 10x figure would be accurate for the 2007 war with Lebanon (which was roughly ~100 to ~1000 civilian causalities, iirc), which has a much more competent military than Gaza. The casualties from Gaza are much smaller, the war in 2009 had 3 civilian deaths in Israel according to IDF and Human Rights Watch. The Palestinian casualties have inconsistent numbers: Israel claims it was ~300, Human Rights Watch says ~760 and Palestinian Ministry of Health says ~925. This gives a civilian casualty ratio of 100:1 to 300:1.

Granted, this doesn't account for all casualties, but there's no denying that Israel isn't receiving the brunt of the damage, if only because they vastly outpower their enemies.

 

[Vagabundo]

Yeah abbas's isn't going to bring war crimes charges. That's not his gameplan. He gameplan is creating a palestinian state.

In January 2009, the Office of the Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court received an official communication from the Minister of Justice of the Palestinian Authority (PA), Ali Kashan, which expressed the PA's readiness to recognize the jurisdiction of the ICC over “the territory of Palestine.”[37] The PA's declaration purported to invoke Article 12 (3) of the Rome Statute, which specifically enables "a state which is not a party to this Statute" to request that the ICC exercise its jurisdiction on an ad hoc basis with respect to an alleged crime on that state’s territory or involving its nationals.

In April 2012, the ICC rejected the request. "International arenas are routinely hijacked for political purposes, but today’s decision was markedly different," said Anne Herzberg, legal adviser for NGO Monitor.[38][39] According to the Jerusalem Post, "had the ICC accepted the PA’s recognition of its jurisdiction, it would have also tacitly accepted its statehood.

I'm sure it's not the only reason why they want Statehood, but they do want the ICC involved, and can't unless they are a recognised State.

 

[el retorno]

Its all they can do. They don't have bases in optimal positions to destroy israel. And Israel is aware of this. They fire back where they are fired from. Both sides know they are trying to kill innocent people, and hit military targets as well. There is no alternative for palestine strikes to originate from.
.

No and they Geneva conventions say the presences of civilians doesn't automatically make a site off limits. It sucks and Israel should think more about the image their projecting and if their attacks are accomplishing their objectives but calling this an intentional slaughter of civilians is silly.

I'm sure it's not the only reason why they want Statehood, but they do want the ICC involved, and can't unless they are a recognised State.

I'm saying nothing will come of that. Thats political pressure.

 

[nib95]

Do you really think the US will agree to any military action against Israel? That's probably one of the largest sticking points in this whole saga.

Not the point. UN statehood for Palestine gives it further international recognition and sympathy for their plight, plus further condemnation of those countries (Israel/US) that continue to worsen it.

 

[Jeels]

From Twitter:

Jon Williams ‏@WilliamsJon
11 month old son of BBC colleague killed in #Gaza. Sister-in-law killed, brother critically injured. Civilians always casualties of conflict

Jon Williams ‏@WilliamsJon
#Israel confirms Israeli Navy bombarding #Gaza. Says it has "struck terror sites" as part of "Operation #PillarOfDefense"

https://twitter.com/WilliamsJon

Seriously anyone who defends Israel is fooling themselves.

And the reason Israel is held to a higher standard is because we are supporting it.

Seriously, how many times has it been repeated that Palestine is the apartheid of our generation.

 

[commedieu]

Do you really think the US will agree to any military action against Israel? That's probably one of the largest sticking points in this whole saga.

Of course fucking not. SO lets close this thread then, and just know that Israel and Palestine will go at it until one is completely gone from the earth. Pointless to have the discussion. All sides involved with this are despicable at this point. BBQ Charred babies shouldn't be normal issues to deal with by any human being. Israel is bullshit, The International community is bullshit, the US is also bullshit, when it comes to this specific issue. Hands need to be forced here, diplomacy and politicking isn't going to work, and never has. So I find it more interesting to talk about speculative solutions, as the reality isn't going to budge. You will always have both sides blaming eachother like children, thats why I say that you need a power(s) to step in, force both of them to deal with some sort of land deal, by international force. Its the only thing that is going to make a difference. Israel probably shouldn't have the land its on NOW, but that is what happens when you pick a losing side during a war(Israels enemies.) For some reason, they can't admit a loss, and want to continue fighting over something they lost. Fine, do that. Keep it up, but its not progressing either side forward, and not cutting down on the loss of lives. Sad and pathetic that its all over peace and love promoting religion as well.

Its disgusting, and its why when the US gets attacked for its interests in the world, what is fair is fair. I hope I don't get caught in any of the retaliation hits, but theres too many dead and too much anger to pretend that the US doesn't have a role in this, a significant role.

 

[Jeels]

Of course fucking not. SO lets close this thread then, and just know that Israel and Palestine will go at it until one is completely gone from the earth

Let's be honest, if the status quo is maintained its Palestine and its people that are gone.

 

[el retorno]

Seriously anyone who defends Israel is fooling themselves.

So when in an attack on a Israeli ends up killing an innocent can someone say the same thing about those "defending Palestine"?

The attempts to see the conflict as one sided and a good vs. evil fight are naively misguided. This whole conflict is filled with shades of grey.

Let's be honest, if the status quo is maintained its Palestine and its people that are gone.

The Palestinian people will disappear?

The status quo won't hold anyways though.

 

[commedieu]

No and they Geneva conventions say the presences of civilians doesn't automatically make a site off limits. It sucks and Israel should think more about the image their projecting and if their attacks are accomplishing their objectives but calling this an intentional slaughter of civilians is silly.



I'm saying nothing will come of that. Thats political pressure.

I'm sorry but Israeli soldiers shoot Palestinians for target practice. I'm not going to fluffify one side of this. Israel doesn't give a shit about Geneva conventions, and aren't prosecuted as the war criminals that they are. And the war crimes for the other side, aren't documented i'm sure. You can call it silly all you wan't but I don't think its silly, it is literally killing innocent people over ineffective rocket attacks.

NOW, thats not to say that all israeli soldiers are bad, but if you can youtube yourself hours of Israeli soldiers committing offensive acts, its safe to say that there is a trend there. And that trend goes without any punishment. That is the problem with Israel's side of this; They don't have to worry about their image. Israel does not care about their image. There are no repercussions for any of their actions.

Well, Hamas are a bunch of dicks and Israel does have a right to protect itself. It's just their cowboy methods of doing so is reckless, unproductive and unjustified most of the times.

Exactly.

Israel wants the world to see them as the victims here. They aren't when their superior technology which does factor in precision, keeps eradicating children.

And when that isn't happening, they are using old fashioned bulldozers to demolish some families homes, and sit on their couch for twitter photos.

 

[Jeels]

So when in an attack on a Israeli ends up killing an innocent can someone say the same thing about those "defending Palestine"?

The attempts to see the conflict as one sided and a good vs. evil fight are naively misguided. This whole conflict is filled with shades of grey.


The Palestinian people will disappear?

The status quo won't hold anyways though.

You are right. I was just angry at a specific person(s) in this thread. It goes both ways.

But it should be apparent that one side has an enormous amount of power while one does not.

I'm sorry but Israeli soldiers shoot Palestinians for target practice. I'm not going to fluffify one side of this. Israel doesn't give a shit about Geneva conventions, and aren't prosecuted as the war criminals that they are. And the war crimes for the other side, aren't documented i'm sure. You can call it silly all you wan't but I don't think its silly, it is literally killing innocent people over ineffective rocket attacks.

NOW, thats not to say that all israeli soldiers are bad, but if you can youtube yourself hours of Israeli soldiers committing offensive acts, its safe to say that there is a trend there. And that trend goes without any punishment. That is the problem with Israel's side of this; They don't have to worry about their image. Israel does not care about their image. There are no repercussions for any of their actions.

And this.

 

[SKINNER!]

Seriously anyone who defends Israel is fooling themselves.

Well, Hamas are a bunch of dicks and Israel does have a right to protect itself. It's just their cowboy methods of doing so is reckless, unproductive and unjustified most of the times.

 

[beast786]

Plenty of evidence to the contrary here


.

From your link " Iran insists that it does not execute people for homosexuality, and those executed had either committed rape, murder, or drug trafficking"

Now lets compare to Israeli stands on its strategy in killing innocent people.

 

[pax217]

From your link " Iran insists that it does not execute people for homosexuality, and those executed had either committed rape, murder, or drug trafficking

Are you making the assumption that Iran is telling the truth?

 

[Valhelm]

What this reminds me of most is how rival rulers would send back the heads of each others' messengers in the Dark Ages. It's bizarre.

 

[Wazzim]

The sole idea that the government of Israel doesn't want the ICC to solve things shows that they're scum.

 

[el retorno]

You are right. I was just angry at a specific person(s) in this thread. It goes both ways.

But it should be apparent that one side has an enormous amount of power while one does not.

I think this is a valid point. And why I hate to here bibi say he's just waiting for the Palestinians to stop terrorism before they'll talk. You can be the bigger man you and prevent most of the attacks on you're land. Launching retaliatory strikes that kill a few people after every attack whether israelis die or not isn't winning you any support in the rest of the world. I don't disregard their right to defend I just question if they are actually doing anything to actually defend themselves.