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Poligaf episode 2010: The Empire Strikes Back
- Thread starter ClovingWestbrook
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Jason's Ultimatum
Member
speculawyer said:
What about public workers? Did Christie cut state jobs that could've done something about this situation?
speculawyer said:
Pretty much, but he should have known they had barely any funding for snow removal thanks to his budget. What happened was that he went on vacation to Disney World, his Lt. Gov to a cruise and then the blizzard hit. People were attacking him for it since the whole cleanup was a mess and when he came back he blamed it all on the mayors. But the towns had very limited funds to deal with it thanks to all of his budget cuts and while yes there are county roads and the like they couldn't keep up with it. A bunch of the roads were just given up on since there was a lack of funds.
I don't even really think it was a city/state issue since the state had trouble cleaning up some of the highways. They really fucked up cleaning up the Parkway, it took like half a week to get all lanes operational when it shouldn't have taken longer then a day.
Jason's Ultimatum
Member
Oh, shit. So Christie did cut taxes for the wealthy? If so, then unbefuckinglievable. Then the guy has the fucking balls to ask for help from FEMA. :lol
Jason's Ultimatum
Member
Lefty said:
Well, that's equally worse. How much money was lost from not renewing it?
Cutting taxes on the rich while facing huge deficits? Refusing to invest in the state's infrastructure? Picking verbal fights with the public during appearances? Vacationing during a big state problem without even leaving the Lt. Gov. in charge? This dude is a Republican rock star.Lefty said:
Byakuya769
Member
Dan said:
2012?
He offset it by cutting education?! What a fucking asshole.Lefty said:
As someone who grew up in Jersey and got a pretty good public education, that pisses me off. It'd piss me off if it happened anywhere in this country, but that irks me a little bit more.
Jason's Ultimatum
Member
I don't understand his logic. I really don't.
Jason's Ultimatum said:
It isn't logical. It's a moral position. He feels the burden of our societal functions should be shifted from him and other wealthy people to those who can't afford to go to DisneyWorld for Christmas (and one of the worst storms in state history). It's the "Lucky Duck" Philosophy.
Jason's Ultimatum
Member
Maybe he went to Disney World to ask for Mickey Mouse's advice on how to deal with the storms.
thekad said:
GOP fucks up. Dem gets elected to clean up the mess. Public get angry at Dem for not cleaning up the mess fast enough. GOP gets elected back into office. Rinse and repeat. This just happened to the Dems in the 2010 elections and will probably happen to Obama if the economy doesn't improve enough by Nov 2012.
TacticalFox88
Banned
To say this is the root cause of all the bullshit in our country is an understatement.Averon said:
speculawyer
Member
Hey, I'll give credit to Christie for at least walking the walk. Most of these 'we need to cut spending!' people come into office and don't cut spending at all. They just cut taxes and make the deficit problems worse.
There does need to be government cuts at all levels. The private sector has shrunk, thus the tax base has shrunk, and thus government must shrink along with it. That said, the hardcore 'cut government' people are living in la-la land. There just isn't that much which can easily be cut besides defense.
I think the Keynesian economics has been given a shot but we've got no more ammo. And besides, as my theory goes so much of the stimulus just leaks out of the country and stimulates China & other countries, not here.
But Christie sure seems clumsy with his work and not very good at it. I don't think he is going to be the rising star some GOPers are hoping for. As bad as things are, the GOP just really doesn't have a better alternative.
There does need to be government cuts at all levels. The private sector has shrunk, thus the tax base has shrunk, and thus government must shrink along with it. That said, the hardcore 'cut government' people are living in la-la land. There just isn't that much which can easily be cut besides defense.
I think the Keynesian economics has been given a shot but we've got no more ammo. And besides, as my theory goes so much of the stimulus just leaks out of the country and stimulates China & other countries, not here.
But Christie sure seems clumsy with his work and not very good at it. I don't think he is going to be the rising star some GOPers are hoping for. As bad as things are, the GOP just really doesn't have a better alternative.
state-of-the-art
Member
RustyNails
Member
2012 should be interesting. I don't know if there will be another Obamawave catapulting both the Senate and House back to democrats. Teabaggers will seriously have to moderate their crap and work with the Congress. Not sure if the slogan 'party of no' will do the trick in 2012.state-of-the-art said:
worldrunover
Member
See, the problem is opposing completely unoffensive things like START and healthcare for 9/11 workers leaves little room to work on bigger, more important issues.state-of-the-art said:
TacticalFox88
Banned
....Did I read that right? These morons actually were against START?! WTF is the logical reasoning behind that? Do they want to nuke the shit out of Russia, instead?state-of-the-art said:
WrathOfOtaibah
Banned
I still think that most of the teabaggers will fall in line with the GOP leadership when the new congress starts.
Old Gimlet Eyes
Member
They were against it because they didn't get their tax cuts yet, that is the reasoning. As soon as their tax cuts were extended another 2 years they were OK with START. Republicans have to get theirs, before anyone gets anything else.TacticalFox88 said:
Jason's Ultimatum
Member
I still don't get Christie's vehement argument against public workers and their salaries. The Manhattan Institute did a study awhile back showing that public salaries, including benefits, is equal to the private sector, but public workers still have an advantage over private workers when it comes to a better overall package.
Plinko
Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
So Upton is predicting that the democrats will team up with the GOP and nix the health care bill before the State of the Union.
That will go over real well with the public. This poll shows a majority either like it or want it more liberal (http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs...-healthcare-law-or-want-it-more-liberal.html). Isn't the only thing in effect right now the restrictions on the insurance companies?
That will go over real well with the public. This poll shows a majority either like it or want it more liberal (http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs...-healthcare-law-or-want-it-more-liberal.html). Isn't the only thing in effect right now the restrictions on the insurance companies?
speculawyer
Member
The official Tea party line (if there is such a thing) opposed ALL those?
They hate the 9/11 responders?
What does the START treaty have to do with Tea-party politics? If anything, they should support it since it helps prevent an expensive (government spending!) arms race.
Ban on gays? What does that have to do with Tea-party politics. Again, they should support it if they are really for less spending & less government. Get rid of wasteful long procedures used to kick gay people out. Get rid of millions in wasted government spending that is spent to trail fighter pilots who are then thrown out! And extend liberty to more people!
The Tea-party is seriously a bullshit group that contradicts their own supposed principles. They have no principles . . . it is just the same old GOP party line.
speculawyer
Member
I'd like to see that study. Government workers do seem to get too much in terms of pension plans. Lots of government pension plans let people retire at age 50 and collect a lot of money in pension AND they then continue to work a private job such that they end up making much more than private sector people. It is that double-payment where many of them just really clean-up.Jason's Ultimatum said:
Perhaps there should be something saying you can't work and collect that pension? Now that sounds very unreasonable since it creates inefficiencies. But right now, there are a lot of other people that need those jobs.
There are problems with public pension systems. Like social security, they are built as pyramid schemes based on endless growth. But we (thankfully) just are not growing like we used to thus both social security and pension systems become unsustainable. These things have to be adjusted one way or another. If they are not adjusted, they'll just ultimately fail anyway.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
Iwill put something together today.Incognito said:
Jason's Ultimatum
Member
speculawyer said:
Yeah. Seems like public workers like to retire early.
Here's the link I was reading about the NYT article on public workers:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/02/business/02showdown.html
http://www.slge.org/index.asp?Type=B_BASIC&SEC={22748FDE-C3B8-4E10-83D0-959386E5C1A4}&DE={BD1EB9E6-79DA-42C7-A47E-5D4FA1280C0B}
speculawyer
Member
But here is the thing . . . does this include the amount of extra earning time that may be devoted to another job to make money.
If the total lifetime earnings of a policeman that retires at 50 equals the lifetime earnings of some comparable private worker that retires at 65, does that 15 years of extra earnings time (used to consult for homeland security, work security at the local stadium, or whatever) exceed the larger amount that the private person made?
Teachers are well known to make less money than other people . . . but if they have 3 months of time off during the year, you need to calculate that in the numbers.
I'm not trying to bash public workers or teachers . . . I just want the system in balance. It isn't going to benefit these public workers if they get great union contracts but then the whole system collapses because it is unsustainable. Many people would say that is exactly what happened to GM . . . the union got contracts that were better than they deserved and the system ultimately collapsed because it was not sustainable.
The GOP often makes the mistake of arguing against 'thug unions' when that is largely a silly caricaturization. But there does need to be some honest reckoning or else the system just falls apart at a later date with a bigger implosion. Greece, Ireland, and others are learning the hard way.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
Jason's Ultimatum
Member
Do their pensions and benefits make up a large chunk of the overall package? If so, then what about health care costs paid by taxpayers? You mention GM workers, but look at GM workers in Canada. Reading this:
http://www.canadiandemocraticmoveme...ter-trained-workers-equals-more-productivity/
Toyota decided to build a new plant in Ontario, passing up millions of dollars in tax breaks to build plants here in the U.S., and one of the big reasons is Canada's single-payer health care system. It costs Toyota $4-$5 less to train a worker than here in the U.S.. Education also seems to play factor as the Canadian GM workers are better educated workers than its U.S. counterparts:
That's pretty fucking sad. And then there's this:
Oh, and a bit OT, I love the articles take on Costco vs Wal-Mart pay and benefits:
http://www.canadiandemocraticmoveme...ter-trained-workers-equals-more-productivity/
Toyota decided to build a new plant in Ontario, passing up millions of dollars in tax breaks to build plants here in the U.S., and one of the big reasons is Canada's single-payer health care system. It costs Toyota $4-$5 less to train a worker than here in the U.S.. Education also seems to play factor as the Canadian GM workers are better educated workers than its U.S. counterparts:
That's pretty fucking sad. And then there's this:
Oh, and a bit OT, I love the articles take on Costco vs Wal-Mart pay and benefits:
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