Huw_Dawson
Member
As it stands I'd like the election delayed by one week to allow for the immediate impact of this attack to subside. This has radically altered the tone of the campaign.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
UK General Election - 8th June 2017 |OT| - The Red Wedding
- Thread starter Jezbollah
- Start date
- Status
Is there much precedent for this - and what are the ramifications procedurally?
To be honest, I'm not sure it should be delayed in any case, though I do fear how this may affect the outcome. It suggests a certain weakness if we are to delay the governance of our country because of some lunatic murderer.
What a shitty, shitty day, and here was me waking up looking forward to more jolly banter about Theresa May's interview.
I've been thinking about this, as I did expect the murder of Jo Cox to act as something of a 'wake up call' to some Leave voters and was surprised when it didn't.
I think her murder was (thankfully) an unusual event in British politics, and not one that the people or the press are particular used to dealing with. Journalists couldn't wheel out their practised responses, point the finger at the usual suspects, and weren't able to chalk it up as proof that they were right the last time they'd talked about it happening.
That's not the case here. Most of the discussion in the GAF thread already makes reference to Muslims and middle-eastern politics with absolutely no confirmation that they have any bearing on this yet. Twitter and other social media are already heading well down the sewer.
People see events like this and they know how they are 'supposed' to react, and so I do think this will have a wider impact on the election.
I'd love to be proved wrong, though, and a lot might change if the police discover that this isn't what everyone thinks it is.
I understand the sentiment, but the reality would be a grade A example of letting the terrorists win.
We can't let random shitbags mess about with our political process any time they feel like it. That would only encourage others to do the same next week, and the week after.
I've been thinking about this, as I did expect the murder of Jo Cox to act as something of a 'wake up call' to some Leave voters and was surprised when it didn't.
I think her murder was (thankfully) an unusual event in British politics, and not one that the people or the press are particular used to dealing with. Journalists couldn't wheel out their practised responses, point the finger at the usual suspects, and weren't able to chalk it up as proof that they were right the last time they'd talked about it happening.
That's not the case here. Most of the discussion in the GAF thread already makes reference to Muslims and middle-eastern politics with absolutely no confirmation that they have any bearing on this yet. Twitter and other social media are already heading well down the sewer.
People see events like this and they know how they are 'supposed' to react, and so I do think this will have a wider impact on the election.
I'd love to be proved wrong, though, and a lot might change if the police discover that this isn't what everyone thinks it is.
I understand the sentiment, but the reality would be a grade A example of letting the terrorists win.
We can't let random shitbags mess about with our political process any time they feel like it. That would only encourage others to do the same next week, and the week after.
Huw_Dawson
Member
Maybe you are right.
I decided to take a look at equivalent opinion polls between now and 2015.
The number of "don't knows" is dramatically higher - something like 16-18% of people did not know who they were going to vote for when asked in the past few days. At this point in the election campaign, that was only about 8-10%.
This three weeks is crucial for this campaign, as the way those voters break down will decide the campaign in many marginals.
I decided to take a look at equivalent opinion polls between now and 2015.
The number of "don't knows" is dramatically higher - something like 16-18% of people did not know who they were going to vote for when asked in the past few days. At this point in the election campaign, that was only about 8-10%.
This three weeks is crucial for this campaign, as the way those voters break down will decide the campaign in many marginals.
WhateverItTakes
Banned
I've felt selfish for thinking about this during the horror of the attack, but it's playing on my mind. Just hope hysteria doesn't rule the political narrative once the campaigns resume.
I don't think it's a matter of lurching. It's still a matter of being informed...
E.g. Think about how many people on Twitter are retweeting "Thank you to our emergency services for being so BRAVE last night!!" who will then turn and vote Conservative.
The people who have thought in the past that right-wing/facist thinking will solve problems as delicate/complex as terrorism and immigration will continue to think that as they believe this proves their point. As much as I hate to say it, I don't think 'another' terrorist attack will convince people to become facist if they haven't had similar thoughts prior.
Edited: got too political
E.g. Think about how many people on Twitter are retweeting "Thank you to our emergency services for being so BRAVE last night!!" who will then turn and vote Conservative.
The people who have thought in the past that right-wing/facist thinking will solve problems as delicate/complex as terrorism and immigration will continue to think that as they believe this proves their point. As much as I hate to say it, I don't think 'another' terrorist attack will convince people to become facist if they haven't had similar thoughts prior.
Edited: got too political
naweednrahman
Member
May has been given an absolutely life line given the incident in Manchester. The timing of this is very suspect.
I strongly disagree. You only have to look at the upsurge in the bombing thread of "it's time we went in and bombed them", "we should deport everyone", and "why aren't Muslims condemning this" to see how emotive people get.
People always cling to the status quo when something threatening happens. And an event that induces a strongly emotional response, the superficial response of "May is tough and will state things in black and white" and "Corbyn is a wishy-washy and will always qualify his statements" is going to win out vs making a decision based on sifting through their policies.
I hope a mod bans you and all other Infowars scum.
People always cling to the status quo when something threatening happens. And an event that induces a strongly emotional response, the superficial response of "May is tough and will state things in black and white" and "Corbyn is a wishy-washy and will always qualify his statements" is going to win out vs making a decision based on sifting through their policies.
I hope a mod bans you and all other Infowars scum.
Jezbollah
Member
" The timing of this is very suspect"
Oh fuck off, if you're implying what I think you're implying.
oh my gaaaawwd
Audioboxer
Member
This is very likely a planned and calculated attack. The dates of big events like this are known for ages. Very likely planning started for an attack like this well before the country even knew there would be a general election.
Or even if it was afterwards, a rather silly remark to drum up conspiracy theories like that. As much as one can make an observation that in the following day's minds may emotionally be in turmoil about things like an election and political party support, going on to say "suspect timing" is a bit eyebrow raising. If it is some batshit hint that our own government/May/Conservatives are somehow complicit in orchestrating a terrorist attack to win an election? I mean, really?
Exacerbation that this may cause an uprise in support of Brexit/Mays immigration stances, okay, most will get that worry. Going on to seemingly hint at something like this being suspect timing without further elaborating is a bit callous, to say the least. No matter what anyone thinks of May/the Tories or even Brexit.
naweednrahman
Member
I'm just expressing an opinion that's all. I'm not out here trying to cause hate. Sorry if you guys feel that way but that isn't my intention.
Just a shame the campaign has come to a halt as May's plans were being picked apart.
Just a shame the campaign has come to a halt as May's plans were being picked apart.
There are countless better ways to give yourself a lifeline than blowing up kids. This is an absolute nonsense post.
Edit: Yes you can say it's a shame Theresa's trainwreck of a day will be forgotten now but to claim it's suspect, really?
Pyroclastic
Banned
that can be thought without coming up with a false flag theory, which is the refuge of idiots.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
I'm not even sure this can be done. The Royal Proclamation has already been given and Parliament has already been dissolved.
It works too! I've found myself saying to my gf that its going to be warm this week, just going off the colours on the bbc weather app, before realising its basically more at a 'not freezing' kind of level
Yeah, I knew it was a total dogshit tier newspaper, but hadn't ever seen any uk media using Fahrenheit for temperature before, but admittedly I try and minimise how often I see anything from the Mail or Express
Mortimer Brewster
Member
Get out of here with this bullshit. Attacks like this aren't planned in the time since the election was called. Thus is the worse kind of FUD.
Yeah, I was gonna explain myself a little bit better but I was just politically ranting. But you're right. What I meant was people can get emotional and still use logic to vote but there will be many, many cases where this won't happen.
That isn't a defense.
Theonik
Member
Yeah the events that transpired in Manchester are Tragic and yes, they are going to affect the election campaign and yes May probably stands to benefit from the respite when her campaign has been falling apart, but that is no justification to make false flag theories with no substantial evidence and to do so at this point is disrespectful to the victims of this incident.
Chris Evans used Fahrenheit on his show yesterday as well for some reason.
Scousefury
Member
This awful shit has saved May's bacon. Today she should have been getting smashed by press but instead she gets a free ride to go look all powerful. If anyone asks anything about politics they will get dumped on for making the bombing political. This entire thing will put the brakes on Labours surge and even more our civil liberties are going to be eroded even further.
IdreamofHIME
Member
When it's hot, you use Fahrenheit to emphasise the number and when it's cold you use Celsius for the reverse effect.
That's the stupid rule.
I would agree. Remember the London bombings were the DAY AFTER London was awarded the Olympics: for maximum impact it would have been more expedient to attack the day before when there were more people in the capital and have a greater effect.
Even something as isolated as this would be months in the planning.
Irrespective, I wouldn't be surprised if this was turned into political capital.
Coriolanus
Banned
hmm.. it depends on how May and the oppo handle it, really. May couldn't project empathy if her life depended on it, and the most ruthless parts of the oppo can point at the attack as an example of how tories completely fail to keep the UK safe.
Here's hoping that someone can gag corbo fast enough if anyone asks him why he thinks the attack happened.
Here's hoping that someone can gag corbo fast enough if anyone asks him why he thinks the attack happened.
This is what I'm thinking, they could attack May on her failure to keep UK safe, this is the second attack in the space of 2 months under her watch.
It would be absolutely wrong to exploit this attack, which killed an 8 year old, for political gain.
However fertile the ground for this political attack may be, however much you could directly link the attack to May's years of failure as Home Secretary, however culpable the current government is for failing to keep its citizens safe due to budget cuts in the police, it would be totally wrong to use the deaths of innocents for political ends.
Instead, we need to calmly and sensibly install CCTV everywhere, censor the internet, and bomb Syria. For a Strong and Stable tomorrow.
KZObsessed
Member
The fuck.
Billy_Pilgrim
Member
She was on course for a whopping majority regardless, there's zero need to go sniffing about in loony town.
Corbyn needs to be mindful of anything he says regarding this in the days to come, but so does May. If May tries to politicise it, I think she'd be in severe danger of a backfire. It's still only a year since Jo Cox was murdered at the height of the Brexit debate, and this has literally only just happened. It would be poor form to try and make this an election issue or use it to try and illustrate any points about strength or weakness.
I don't think we need to get too hysterical about the effect this will have. It might open up a new dimension in debate on migration control - and that might hurt the Lib Dems and Labour, as they're perceived as softer on that - but ultimately, if it turns out the perpetrator was British-born - that might be less a focus, than say, internet radicalisation. It would be a shame if this was used as a pretext for justifying the really ugly regulatory plans for the Internet that are alluded to in the Tory manifesto. May has had a hard on for censorship and mass-spying from the word go, and this might only worsen it. It's on all of us, as emotions are still high, to try and stay level headed and scrutinize what they're actually offering, what's hollow and what's not, what's merely emotional manipulation, and what's exploitative and threatening to our freedom.
I have a feeling that when the other Andrew Neil interviews actually happen, and we get closer to D-day, this will still be remembered, but it won't be the only issue on peoples minds as they go to the ballot box.
I don't think we need to get too hysterical about the effect this will have. It might open up a new dimension in debate on migration control - and that might hurt the Lib Dems and Labour, as they're perceived as softer on that - but ultimately, if it turns out the perpetrator was British-born - that might be less a focus, than say, internet radicalisation. It would be a shame if this was used as a pretext for justifying the really ugly regulatory plans for the Internet that are alluded to in the Tory manifesto. May has had a hard on for censorship and mass-spying from the word go, and this might only worsen it. It's on all of us, as emotions are still high, to try and stay level headed and scrutinize what they're actually offering, what's hollow and what's not, what's merely emotional manipulation, and what's exploitative and threatening to our freedom.
I have a feeling that when the other Andrew Neil interviews actually happen, and we get closer to D-day, this will still be remembered, but it won't be the only issue on peoples minds as they go to the ballot box.
killer_clank
Member
It affects the campaign for the next few days, but there's no real reason to think it'll change the final result at all. For all the sitting PM gets to looks good making speeches when this happens if some news comes out that govt hadn't been doing its job then it can go horribly wrong. I really don't think many people will make their decision to vote for based on this.
Huw_Dawson
Member
I am loathe to comment on the political effects of an attack that has killed 22 people - including an 8 year old.
It does not help anyone. It will make people angry and scared. Whoever planned this attack should be brought to justice, and no leader at the table believes otherwise.
It does not help anyone. It will make people angry and scared. Whoever planned this attack should be brought to justice, and no leader at the table believes otherwise.
Since Freedom of expression doesn't tend to include yelling fire in a theatre, because of the harm it can do, by creating a panic, perhaps the laws can be moved to charge those who create fake missing​ profiles on Twitter like the trolls last night.
Imagine you are looking for your six year old, and some attention seeker is taking away your right to exposure and wasting limited police resources at the same time.
Probably not include jail time, but community service should be on the cards in my opinion.
Imagine you are looking for your six year old, and some attention seeker is taking away your right to exposure and wasting limited police resources at the same time.
Probably not include jail time, but community service should be on the cards in my opinion.
Theonik
Member
It's an interesting proposition but not one I am entirely buying. Look at the Westminster attack for example. It is probably one of the most policed areas in the country and the suspect was already under police surveillance. Yet the attack still happened.
People might try to use such attacks for political gain or to further an agenda in for instance requesting expanded investigatory powers or police resources but we should be asking why these attacks occur and why is our policing failing us rather than throwing more money at the problem.
That's something I dislike about both the Labour and Conservative positions on the issue mind. Though I should say that with higher investigatory powers you have the disadvantage that they are actually a massive resource drain on police and it seems to only produce noise which is one of the main reasons they have been largely ineffective in thus far. Higher policing might have a greater chance to work but I think is not necessarily the most permanent and cost effective solution to this issue.
Fine to jail time IMO. At the very least to compensate for the waste in police resources.
Doesn't highlighting the 8 year old do the same thing?
Not aiming that at you specifically, its a common thing and even the BBC does it (in fact I just checked and the first story at the top of the page is about this girl). Always seemed off to me.
JonathanEx
Member
Look we can all agree that using fahrenheit at all is a stupid rule.
Spuck-uk
Banned
Absolutely
I don't think tragedies of this scale get used politically, I'd be surprised if any of the leader interviews go into any detail on it besides acknowledging how terrible it is and echoing sympathies.
It poses problems on all sides for the election I think, from the Tory perspective, yes no one is talking about social care anymore, but that also means their lasting memory of the Tory plan will be a very bad one, they haven't turned the story around or had the chance to show Labours plan for social care is worse because it doesn't exist.
And for Labour (and everyone else really) the fact no one is going to want to speak about this attack politically is actually bad for them because security is suddenly going to be a massive vote winner and they'll have no opportunity to strengthen their polling on that issue without sailing very close to making a national tragedy a political game.
It poses problems on all sides for the election I think, from the Tory perspective, yes no one is talking about social care anymore, but that also means their lasting memory of the Tory plan will be a very bad one, they haven't turned the story around or had the chance to show Labours plan for social care is worse because it doesn't exist.
And for Labour (and everyone else really) the fact no one is going to want to speak about this attack politically is actually bad for them because security is suddenly going to be a massive vote winner and they'll have no opportunity to strengthen their polling on that issue without sailing very close to making a national tragedy a political game.
phisheep
NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
I hope and trust that they don't. No sane politician would, because they know that the same sort of thing could as easily happen on their watch - and with little they could do about it.
There are of course some factions - not only among the Tories - who would like to impose draconian restrictions on our freedoms in the name of "keeping us safe", but so long as we live in a relatively free society there is the potential for this sort of thing to happen. And I for one don't want to offer any encouragement to either the terrorists or to those who want to do silly things involving detention without charge and curfews and suchlike.
JonathanEx
Member
It's also not just about politicians though, how long will it take The Sun to run 'wishy washy Corbyn would let your kids die like in Manchester'. Not that he was ever going to be liked by the Sun, but you know what I mean.
Could be worse, Zac Goldsmith could write another editorial for the Standard.
Could be worse, Zac Goldsmith could write another editorial for the Standard.
vonStirlitz
Unconfirmed Member
Although I agree with all the above, one of the benefits of an open internet is to allow people to come out with loony, badly thought out or misguided views, like the Poster I assume you refer to. At least we still have liberal freedom of expression on GAF (subject to Mod brutality).
Plus, it's important that people come out with shit like that poster, as we can understand how these tinfoil views start to former, and how events are used to reinforce their way of thinking.
It's shit, yes, especially on a day like this. But it's GAF and we have to allow an array of weird viewpoints.
- Status