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[Arkeband]

No, but it's a problem and having the public discourse and criticism shut down is an offence to the American citizens that have lost their lives to Islamic terrorism.

The problem is when you have super-Christians like Ted Cruz harping on the phraseology, he's not doing it to better identify a threat, he's doing it to further entrench a narrative of good versus evil and to proclaim his religion as morally superior.

When you allow the religious nuts on the right to exalt their religion in an official capacity, it basically means the government is officially condemning one religion and praising another.

Which is exactly what ISIS wants. They want the US to be synonymous with Christianity and they want themselves to be synonymous with Islam. What the left is attempting to do is to dispel that notion while our conservative Christian Right is diving headfirst into it.

The left is being forward thinking in recognizing that you cannot destroy ideology, the right is being reactive and thinking that they can wipe evil out here and now and something else won't immediately take its place.

 

[diablos991]

Can someone post a source on the foreign born thing? FBI's alert says he's an American citizen of Afghan descent, nothing more.

The news report from NPR on my Amazon Echo said naturalized citizen. That means he wasn't born here.

 

[Audioboxer]

What do you want to discuss?

Having the ability to lambast Islamic belief and doctrine without being called Islamophobic? Wanting to be able to show disgusting polls and criticise them that come from Islamic communities that say adulterers, gays and apostates aren't human beings and/or should be killed? Wanting to point out the horrors of how women are treated. Wanting to clearly label and identify a terrorist as Islamic if they identify as a Muslim and believe in the God of the Koran without that meaning you are Islamophobic either? And lastly sure wanting to have immigration discussions that have substance as like it or not the people coming into your country should be background checked and have to vetted for radicalisation/violent beliefs/beliefs against the law in your country.

Because you know what? I don't care if it costs the government money it's not oh well shit happens moments when 9/11 happens, or the Orlando shooting, or the Paris attacks or the Rotherham rape gangs in the UK. People are dieing and women were raped on mass. Open discourse is part of the action needed to tackle terrorism and disgusting ideological beliefs.

 

[The Artisan]

I was in Brooklyn and got it.

word, I was in Queens

 

[gatti-man]

No, but it's a problem and having the public discourse and criticism shut down is an offence to the American citizens that have lost their lives to Islamic terrorism.

How exactly is prayer a problem?

 

[Audioboxer]

How exactly is prayer a problem?

I misread what you were addressing. Not sure what the prayer you refer to is, but I doubt it's a problem.

 

[Rabbi_Vole]

Homegrown terror is scary. These people reach a low point and become increasingly inspired by prior terrorist attacks, state their intent to carry one out to ISIS despite having no prior connection, and then go do it. You can't go to war to stop that. It's purely intelligence. As long as you're willing to cause harm, all you have to do is send your message to some dark corner of the world and carry out your objective.

Confirmed homegrown?

 

[gatti-man]

I misread what you were addressing. Not sure what the prayer you refer to is, but I doubt it's a problem.

The guy I was replying to was lamenting the worlds redaction to "religious terrorism" with prayer. I would hardly call 911 or any of what we've experienced religious terrorism. These guys would actually have to practice real Islam before I would consider them actually religious.

 

[entremet]

Confirmed homegrown?

The suspect is an American citizen. But not confirmed. Still in investigation phase.

 

[Nervous Sausage]

A couple of guys claiming some religion to kill people (while not even practicing the teaching of said religion) does not invalidate the peaceful beliefs of millions of other people.

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing...
but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone.

Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority".

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

It has to be acknowledged that the peaceful Muslims are peaceful in spite on these teachings, definitely not because of them, and that extremists can draw a very straightforward line between the teachings and the acts they carry out, whereas it's the peaceful Muslims who have to perform all kinds of mental gymnastics to defend lines like these. This is a serious problem.

 

[Quixzlizx]

Hey you know why people always say "this helps Trump?"

Because the democrats don't have a great answer for foreign-born terrorism. Trump has a crazy, extreme answer (round them up, kick them out, stop immigration), but at least he has an answer.

Clinton's response was really weak. DiBlasio was weirdly avoiding calling it terrorism, instead calling it "intentional."

It was really ridiculous how posters were going "don't call it terrorism, we only know it was 'intentional!'" in the original thread. There's a middle ground between "Those rascally Muslims are at it again" and refusing to call a terrorist attack a terrorist attack because there are some people out there who associate terrorist attacks with Muslims (and those people were doing this anyway regardless of what the authorities and random gaffers were labeling the attack as).

It makes it seem like the highest priority after a terrorist attack is to avoid any perception of Islamophobia rather than the actual attack, and it doesn't actually win any hearts and minds.

 

[excelsiorlef]

It said he was naturalized so he wasn't born a citizen hence not born here.

And here for quite a while it seems so the whole extra special screening some are asking would have caught like probably fuck nothing.

 

[dave is ok]

Can someone post a source on the foreign born thing? FBI's alert says he's an American citizen of Afghan descent, nothing more.

NPR reported that the FBI said he was born in Afghanistan in 1988 this morning on the radio.

 

[ahoyhoy]

Yeah. I saw video of the Elizabeth bomb. Don't know if it was because the cops set it off so it didn't have a full blast but it seemed really limited.

They're probably shrapnel bombs. They aren't designed to make a big boom to take out infrastructure. They're designed to basically fling a bunch of metal in all directions at high velocities, something that can't easily be captured on video.

Likely if there had been people exposed around those bombs they would have been severely maimed or possibly killed. See: Boston Marathon Bombing.

 

[Complistic]

A couple more incidents like this and you can say hello to president Trump.

 

[Rabbi_Vole]

The suspect is an American citizen. But not confirmed. Still in investigation phase.

Naturalized. I have no idea how long this guy has been a citizen. What is the definition of homegrown terrorism? If the guy has only been a citizen for a very short time, is it still considered homegrown? I'm just curious if there is a cut off. Again, for all I know this guy has been a citizen the majority of his life.

 

[Audioboxer]

The guy I was replying to was lamenting the worlds redaction to "religious terrorism" with prayer. I would hardly call 911 or any of what we've experienced religious terrorism. These guys would actually have to practice real Islam before I would consider them actually religious.

Misdirection, as like it or not the Koran has many passages if taken literally are absolutely horrific. That's what these people do to justify human atrocities. Just like the Bible was used for mass killings and pillaging hundreds of years ago. Fortunately though many of those taking the Bible literally have been marginalised and at this point in time in the west amount to Ken Ham doing stupid shit like building an Ark and trying to say the world is 6,000 years old. Not Ken Ham planting bombs and killing people.

Or should I say the Ken Hams of far right Christianity emigrating to Islamic countries and planting bombs to kill the Islamic people as they aren't far right Christians.

The ideologies are at different stages in their careers globally. Right now Islam has not seen any major reformation and extremism and literal readings are seen in numbers large enough that it's a problem. When people die its a fucking problem. And for many leftists they don't even realise Muslim on Muslim killings are done in absolutely insane numbers in the middle east. But shhh don't talk about that, to do so would bring attention to discrimination we want to downplay to win political points.

 

[rjinaz]

If true, this fucker just made life difficult for a lot of innocent muslims in the US, and increased chances of a Trump presidency. Unbelievable.

I kind of think that's the point. These scum want that, they hope to gain sympathy and for people to be pissed off enough to join the cause. The worse it gets for Muslims the better.

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

It has to be acknowledged that the peaceful Muslims are peaceful in spite on these teachings, definitely not because of them, and that extremists can draw a very straightforward line between the teachings and the acts they carry out, whereas it's the peaceful Muslims who have to perform all kinds of mental gymnastics to defend lines like these. This is a serious problem.

All you are doing is playing directly into the hands of ISIS by doing this. All of the Abrahamic faiths have this exact same problem.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Naturalized. I have no idea how long this guy has been a citizen. What is the definition of homegrown terrorism? If the guy has only been a citizen for a very short time, is it still considered homegrown? I'm just curious if there is a cut off. Again, for all I know this guy has been a citizen the majority of his life.

Yeah. I'm curious because if he's been in the US a while this whole immigration line is meaningless.

FBI calls him a citizen so he either has an American parent or went through the whole process.

 

[backflip10019]

So apparently this guy's family has a history of being a nuisance to the community, albeit on a smaller scale:

http://www.nytimes.com/live/new-york-explosion/a-family-business-that-aggravated-neighbors/

The last paragraph about how his father was seen lighting what looked like computer equipment on fire in his backyard is interesting.

 

[plagiarize]

Having the ability to lambast Islamic belief and doctrine without being called Islamophobic? Wanting to be able to show disgusting polls and criticise them that come from Islamic communities that say adulterers, gays and apostates aren't human beings and/or should be killed? Wanting to point out the horrors of how women are treated. Wanting to clearly label and identify a terrorist as Islamic if they identify as a Muslim and believe in the God of the Koran without that meaning you are Islamophobic either? And lastly sure wanting to have immigration discussions that have substance as like it or not the people coming into your country should be background checked and have to vetted for radicalisation/violent beliefs/beliefs against the law in your country.

Because you know what? I don't care if it costs the government money it's not oh well shit happens moments when 9/11 happens, or the Orlando shooting, or the Paris attacks or the Rotherham rape gangs in the UK. People are dieing and women were raped on mass. Open discourse is part of the action needed to tackle terrorism and disgusting ideological beliefs.

SANE people that follow Islamic doctrine, don't make bombs and try to kill people.

See how that works?

Do we blame Christian doctrine for all the crazy shit people have done following it?

What the heck do you propose to achieve by criticizing beliefs and religious doctrine? Do you think you'll get them changed?

 

[hydrophilic attack]

This plays right into what Trump has been saying about Muslims in America.

Best case scenario for anyone wanting to weaken America and the West in general is for Trump to get elected. I can see terrorist attacks for the sole purpose of getting Trump elected

That said, nothing is proved yet. So far this guy is only a suspect

 

[DataGhost]

So apparently this guy's family has a history of being a nuisance to the community, albeit on a smaller scale:

http://www.nytimes.com/live/new-york-explosion/a-family-business-that-aggravated-neighbors/

The last paragraph about how his father was seen lighting what looked like computer equipment on fire in his backyard is interesting.

Shit he might've destroyed precious evidence that could've allowed us to find connections that he had because since it's implied he not working alone, this just made it harder to find any in the same group

 

[Diablos]

Confirmed homegrown?

They seemed to be leaning towards it at one point, now they're saying there could be other people. Still, are they an isolated homegrown group or part of something bigger besides blindly pledging support to ISIS?

 

[DataGhost]

SANE people that follow Islamic doctrine, don't make bombs and try to kill people.

See how that works?

Do we blame Christian doctrine for all the crazy shit people have done following it?

I would say our suspect was sane. He knew exactly what he was doing and planning. I don't think sane is the right word

 

[Audioboxer]

SANE people that follow Islamic doctrine, don't make bombs and try to kill people.

See how that works?

Do we blame Christian doctrine for all the crazy shit people have done following it?

We already do. Christianity is lambasted all the time. As is Catholicism. The difference is when that is done no one goes into a satirical newspaper and guns people down. Or runs a fucking truck down a crowded open space to literally squash people to death.

Our mainstream media mocks Christianity all the time. LGBT abuses are mocked, padeophillia in the Catholic Church is mocked (and the Vatican protecting paedophiles), anti-condom beliefs are bashed, Mother Teresa is called a cunt. Jesus gets drawn and animated all the time while being mocked for supernatural shit like walking on water, turning water to wine and so forth. Flat earthers and 6,000 year old believers are called idiots and categorised as anti-science morons.

The difference is sane Christians can largely just ignore criticism coming at their doctrine without losing their shit and getting violent.

The spread of Christianity is also now largely attempted through recruiting via readings of love/peace. Islam is still largely in places spread by the sword and ruling and conquering. Especially over women.

 

[SolidSnakex]

Do we blame Christian doctrine for all the crazy shit people have done following it?

Yes! This shit always comes up in threads like this, but people absolutely blame and mock Christianity whenever cases come up about Christian groups, individuals etc. doing something like trying to block gay from getting married.

 

[Cappa]

So apparently this guy's family has a history of being a nuisance to the community, albeit on a smaller scale:

http://www.nytimes.com/live/new-york-explosion/a-family-business-that-aggravated-neighbors/

The last paragraph about how his father was seen lighting what looked like computer equipment on fire in his backyard is interesting.

Wow first American fried chicken was theirs? Jesus Christ I used to live near there. I didn't think they were of Afghani origin either.

 

[jelly]

Having the ability to lambast Islamic belief and doctrine without being called Islamophobic? Wanting to be able to show disgusting polls and criticise them that come from Islamic communities that say adulterers, gays and apostates aren't human beings and/or should be killed? Wanting to point out the horrors of how women are treated. Wanting to clearly label and identify a terrorist as Islamic if they identify as a Muslim and believe in the God of the Koran without that meaning you are Islamophobic either? And lastly sure wanting to have immigration discussions that have substance as like it or not the people coming into your country should be background checked and have to vetted for radicalisation/violent beliefs/beliefs against the law in your country.

Because you know what? I don't care if it costs the government money it's not oh well shit happens moments when 9/11 happens, or the Orlando shooting, or the Paris attacks or the Rotherham rape gangs in the UK. People are dieing and women were raped on mass. Open discourse is part of the action needed to tackle terrorism and disgusting ideological beliefs.

Yeah, that is a problem. We are liberal to a fault in the West that we can't go beyond the edges or broad brush strokes discussion that goes nowhere and the communities aren't doing enough themselves, in fact you can see easily on TV how ignorant and hateful many are in broad daylight which shows you a lot are comfortable in their bad beliefs and culture, don't fear any reprise and revel in it. There is good people but so what if the bad aspects are prevalent in no small number. It needs to be focused on without fear of being called islamaphobic.

 

[Nervous Sausage]

All you are doing is playing directly into the hands of ISIS by doing this. All of the Abrahamic faiths have this exact same problem.

Yeah I don't know what the solution is with ISIS but it's a false equivalence to say other faiths have similar problems. This just isn't true. You don't see terrorist attacks carried out in the name of Christianity on a scale anywhere near Islamic attacks, it just doesn't happen. While the Old Testament has tons of gross shit in it, the violent accounts of the Old Testament have absolutely nothing to do with the Gospel or anything that Jesus ever taught which is what Christians live by today. He was taught and lived be the Golden Rule before being murdered for blasphemy, heresy, and apostasy. Islam on the other hand as described in the Quran is explicitly a cult of genocide, theft, rape, and slavery that murders blasphemers, heretics, and apostates. The fact that worrying amounts of people are demonstrating this around the world should make it obvious. The fact is, if the Quran was a better written book, we wouldn't have anywhere near as many problems as we do.

 

[astroturfing]

guy looks like a fucking douche.

i'm glad he will spend the next 50+ years staring at walls.

 

[MisterFalcon]

All this 'ISIS wants X' simply means 'I don't want X and if you disagree with that you're pro-ISIS'.

 

[MetatronM]

Any idea what he was targeting in NYC? The one device that went off, went off inside a dumpster, but what exactly is around?

There's not much there other than just regular old people.

The most likely reason for "why 23rd and 6th?" is that the subway station there is also a PATH station, so it's easy access from New Jersey without having to go through the more guarded Penn Station (which is crawling with dudes in military gear and weapons). The other PATH stations on that line are in areas that would have been more crowded on a Saturday night, so the damage could have been greater, but maybe this guy was afraid of being found out while he was setting things up (which he probably would have in the Village).

So 23th St. seems to fit the billing for "I want to attack a place that's well trafficked by typical New Yorkers that I can get to easily, but also I'm a coward."

 

[DirtyLarry]

I grew up in Elizabeth.
Lived there until I was 14.
I was just at this exact train station less than 2 weeks ago to meet up with a childhood friend and take the train into NYC. Anytime me and him go to the city, it is where we meet.
So this really brings shit close to home.

 

[Tecnniqe]

 

[Skinny Pete]

Trump is loving this shit. Believe me.

 

[Joe Shlabotnik]

Having the ability to lambast Islamic belief and doctrine without being called Islamophobic? Wanting to be able to show disgusting polls and criticise them that come from Islamic communities that say adulterers, gays and apostates aren't human beings and/or should be killed? Wanting to point out the horrors of how women are treated. Wanting to clearly label and identify a terrorist as Islamic if they identify as a Muslim and believe in the God of the Koran without that meaning you are Islamophobic either? And lastly sure wanting to have immigration discussions that have substance as like it or not the people coming into your country should be background checked and have to vetted for radicalisation/violent beliefs/beliefs against the law in your country.

Because you know what? I don't care if it costs the government money it's not oh well shit happens moments when 9/11 happens, or the Orlando shooting, or the Paris attacks or the Rotherham rape gangs in the UK. People are dieing and women were raped on mass. Open discourse is part of the action needed to tackle terrorism and disgusting ideological beliefs.

Because the only place there is a powerful conservative Muslim voting bloc is in Muslim countries.

Christianity gets lots of criticism in the US because the people who espouse some of its ass-backwards tenets--or their ass-backwards interpretation of it--are actually a threat to decades of painstaking social progress. And Islamic terrorism is maybe the 6000th leading cause of death in the U.S.

I agree that on balance problematic aspects of Islam should be as freely discussed as any other religion. But in the US and most Western countries there is a sense of punching down and who-are-you-talking-to about it. It's very very very easy to slip into oppression and discrimination because Muslims have so little influence on anything in America.

 

[plagiarize]

The difference is sane Christians can largely just ignore criticism coming at their doctrine without losing their shit and getting violent.

See, this statement *is* Islamophobia.

Because no, that isn't the difference at all. Because sane Muslims can largely just ignore criticism coming at their doctrine without losing their shit and getting violent.

I only used the word 'SANE' to anyone following along, because Audioboxer said 'Sane people don't do that.' when I said we needed to be careful with our language because we don't want to incite violence against innocent Muslims, which is something ISIS *want* to happen.

ISIS want America to persecute Muslims. They want President Trump. They want every Muslim that isn't part of their crusade to suffer. They kill far more Muslims than they kill anyone else.

Regular every day Muslims are arguably their prime targets, one way or another (either for recruitment or to attack).

You will achieve nothing by criticizing what it says in the Quran. No outsider is going to get a holy book rewritten.

 

[Dangansona]

Having the ability to lambast Islamic belief and doctrine without being called Islamophobic? Wanting to be able to show disgusting polls and criticise them that come from Islamic communities that say adulterers, gays and apostates aren't human beings and/or should be killed? Wanting to point out the horrors of how women are treated. Wanting to clearly label and identify a terrorist as Islamic if they identify as a Muslim and believe in the God of the Koran without that meaning you are Islamophobic either? And lastly sure wanting to have immigration discussions that have substance as like it or not the people coming into your country should be background checked and have to vetted for radicalisation/violent beliefs/beliefs against the law in your country.

Because you know what? I don't care if it costs the government money it's not oh well shit happens moments when 9/11 happens, or the Orlando shooting, or the Paris attacks or the Rotherham rape gangs in the UK. People are dieing and women were raped on mass. Open discourse is part of the action needed to tackle terrorism and disgusting ideological beliefs.

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing...
but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone.

Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority".

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

It has to be acknowledged that the peaceful Muslims are peaceful in spite on these teachings, definitely not because of them, and that extremists can draw a very straightforward line between the teachings and the acts they carry out, whereas it's the peaceful Muslims who have to perform all kinds of mental gymnastics to defend lines like these. This is a serious problem.

We already do. Christianity is lambasted all the time. As is Catholicism. The difference is when that is done no one goes into a satirical newspaper and guns people down. Or runs a fucking truck down a crowded open space to literally squash people to death.

Our mainstream media mocks Christianity all the time. LGBT abuses are mocked, padeophillia in the Catholic Church is mocked (and the Vatican protecting paedophiles), anti-condom beliefs are bashed, Mother Teresa is called a cunt. Jesus gets drawn and animated all the time while being mocked for supernatural shit like walking on water, turning water to wine and so forth. Flat earthers and 6,000 year old believers are called idiots and categorised as anti-science morons.

The difference is sane Christians can largely just ignore criticism coming at their doctrine without losing their shit and getting violent.

The spread of Christianity is also now largely attempted through recruiting via readings of love/peace. Islam is still largely in places spread by the sword and ruling and conquering. Especially over women.

Honestly I can't help but feel some of these sentiments the more attacks we see and I hate that I feel scared of saying it at risk of being labeled racist.

This doesn't mean I want radical steps taken right away or Trump anywhere near the presidency, which is a connection made too often. This thread is far too full of Trump's name.

 

[WeAreStarStuff]

SANE people that follow Islamic doctrine, don't make bombs and try to kill people.

See how that works?

Do we blame Christian doctrine for all the crazy shit people have done following it?

What the heck do you propose to achieve by criticizing beliefs and religious doctrine? Do you think you'll get them changed?

Yes? Any religion which encourages deplorable behavior should be openly mocked and criticized. Our species should be moving forward.

 

[Kill Your Masters]

If true, this fucker just made life difficult for a lot of innocent muslims in the US, and increased chances of a Trump presidency. Unbelievable.

Well that is precisely the plan of IS and similar organisations. And unfortunately it's working.

 

[Calamari41]

All this 'ISIS wants X' simply means 'I don't want X and if you disagree with that you're pro-ISIS'.

Yeah, this always hits me as a complete non-sequitur. Hitler wanted a piece of Stalin, too, and got it. Just because someone wants a specific action to take place doesn't mean that the action will work out in their favor.

 

[jmdajr]

Trump is loving this shit. Believe me.

You know it's sad but true...

Spoiler

SAD BUT TRUUUUUUUUEEEEEE

 

[Joe Shlabotnik]

There's not much there other than just regular old people.

The most likely reason for "why 23rd and 6th?" is that the subway station there is also a PATH station, so it's easy access from New Jersey without having to go through the more guarded Penn Station (which is crawling with dudes in military gear and weapons). The other PATH stations on that line are in areas that would have been more crowded on a Saturday night, so the damage could have been greater, but maybe this guy was afraid of being found out while he was setting things up (which he probably would have in the Village).

So 23th St. seems to fit the billing for "I want to attack a place that's well trafficked by typical New Yorkers that I can get to easily, but also I'm a coward."

This makes almost too much sense. Dude is definitely living in Jersey.

 

[sirap]

Someone needs to tweet Oscar Isaac and tell him to stay home.

 

[dave is ok]

Reddit is deleting all threads on this, letting the_Donald be the only subreddit reporting on it on the front page.

How do the mods over there not realize how bad that looks?

 

[Damerman]

Best case scenario for anyone wanting to weaken America and the West in general is for Trump to get elected. I can see terrorist attacks for the sole purpose of getting Trump elected

That said, nothing is proved yet. So far this guy is only a suspect

This is a reality that people need to understand.

 

[DataGhost]

Reddit is deleting all threads on this, letting the_Donald be the only subreddit reporting on it on the front page.

How do the mods over there not realize how bad that looks?

I'm going to guess the threads are already made and any new one would just be duplicate. R/news talks about him in one of the topics

 

[BennyBlanco]

did anybody else in NY get that alert thing on their phones?

Yup. Pretty weird being in a packed deli and seeing everyone get the same message at the same time.