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[Merino]

I assume many of you on GAF are by now familiar with the Sinterklaas (proto-Santa Claus) tradition that is celebrated in The Netherlands where our Sinterklaas arrives by boat to various towns and cities in our country accompanied by his blackface clown helpers, the Zwarte Pieten.

The racial, ethnocentric and colonial undertones are widely apparent and have been under fierce discussion since they were first protested in 2011. Unfortunately Dutch people love their traditions and do not like getting rid of any. In 1886 when a game of animal cruelty (Palingtrekken, where an eel fish would be tied to a rope and suspended over a canal and people would try to grab an eel and hold on to it without falling into the water) was banned people mass rioted because they enjoyed their tradition of animal cruelty too much to let it be taken away from them.

Similar with the Zwarte Piet discussion, white Holland banned together and resisted the protests against the racists elements of Zwarte Piet and started flat out denying any correlation between blackface and racism. Even when the UN published a devastating report warning for racist tendencies in the Netherlands and a UN committee urged the Netherlands to change their blackface traditions as they are out of touch with the modern world, the Dutch population acted with large indifference and a retreat to false narratives to keep their traditions and deny any history of racism and colonialism.

Though part of the country has shown willingness to change the appearance with compromises of rainbow colored Pieten having been offered and tried out, most of the towns and cities today are celebrating with the traditional blackface Zwarte Pieten.

While Belgium has just announced it will stop doing the blackface part of the Sinterklaas tradition come next year

The Netherlands meanwhile has restricted protests today by ordering an emergency ban on protests in one of the major cities and the action group that has been fighting the tradition since 2011 got arrested as police is on a crackdown of unannounced protests around the celebratory blackface parades today.

In other news, a black Sinterklaas, who was trying to bridge the divide by offering an second alternative to the white master figure of Sinterklaas was also refused entry into the city that is hosting the televised parade this year

 

[Rikkun]

In other news, a black Sinterklaas, who was trying to bridge the divide by offering an second alternative to the white master figure of Sinterklaas was also refused entry into the city that is hosting the televised parade this year

This is even more fucked up to me
Yurop stay losin'

 

[barik]

For fuck's sake, I thought we were done with this... EDIT: this tradition I mean

hey, rest of the world: sorry about this. A lot of us do realize how fucked up this looks, but sadly too many people here are old, stubborn, set in their ways, and completely oblivious to how this makes us look to the rest of the world. Hiding behind the word "tradition", as if something being a tradition means that it is impervious to change or criticism.

 

[Order]

No justifying.

This is racist as fuck.

Do not defend this.

 

[Beefy]

Black man is the only one turned away, yet white men pretending to be black men are fine...

Fuck that shit

 

[SamVimes]

Fucked up but...

This is even more fucked up to me
Yurop stay losin'

Luckily America has no problem whatsoever with racism.

 

[Theorry]

Its getting way out of hand. One person has also arrested because he had a bag of knives with him. This is a childeren party btw..

 

[deli2000]

I keep on saying this, but they're going to keep doing shit like this because black people's concerns don't matter to the majority of people. We're a fucking joke in the western world, a caricature. A monolith who can be misinterpreted, vilified, and dismissed without any consequence. I wish I had a more positive outlook, but after all we've witnessed over the last two years, I feel like traditions like these aren't going away any time soon.

 

[Merino]

No justifying.

This is racist as fuck.

Do not defend this.

It seriously is sick and makes me want to move away from here. USA was always a dream but that dream turned into a nightmare also. Canada it is I guess.

 

[Rikkun]

Fucked up but...
Luckily America has no problem whatsoever with racism.

I'm from and in one of the most racist country in Europe probably, so don't look at me m8

 

[azyless]

Why was that guy refused entry exactly ? Seems even worse to me if the events are supposedly open to everyone.

 

[deli2000]

It seriously is sick and makes me want to move away from here. USA was always a dream but that dream turned into a nightmare also. Canada it is I guess.

There's no place where you're not going to experience a bit of this, Canada is a lot better than most places, but it's not perfect.

 

[Merino]

Its getting way out of hand. One person has also arrested because he had a bag of knives with him. This is a childeren party btw..

The fact that it is a children's party does not excuse the racism.

Off course it is bizar that someone takes actual weapons with them. Mind you there has been no sign yet whether this person was against blackface or pro blackface.

 

[Jacobi]

Meh, personally seems better than cops shooting black people to me

 

[Deleted member 231381]

This is disgusting, especially not letting in the black Sinterklaas. His costume is incredible, that's exactly how I want my presents.

 

[Theorry]

The fact that it is a children's party does not excuse the racism.

Off course it is bizar that someone takes actual weapons with them. Mind you there has been no sign yet whether this person was against blackface or pro blackface.

Wow i am not saying that. All i am saying its getting way out of hand.

 

[Zackat]

Meh, personally seems better than cops shooting black people to me

So not the point.

 

[Merino]

Why was that guy refused entry exactly ? Seems even worse to me if the events are supposedly open to everyone.

Official statement said that the event was only open to children and their parents. They did allow for one protest group to attend but it was a pro-blackface protest by the NVU (Dutch Folk Union) that had as a slogan "We are not ashamed of Zwarte Piet". This group was the only group that was allowed to protest their case.

 

[Beefy]

Meh, personally seems better than cops shooting black people to me

Didn't take long for the first post like this.

 

[Order]

Meh, personally seems better than cops shooting black people to me

It's not a competition.

Don't excuse this shit because worse things are happening

 

[BloodyJasonMask]

Meh, personally seems better than cops shooting black people to me

So it's cool doing racist shit as long as people aren't getting shot?

 

[Merino]

Wow i am not saying that. All i am saying its getting way out of hand.

Not saying that you are implying that just stating facts and my opinion that I think that the pro-blackface people have been using the "It's a children's celebration" as a weak excuse to avoid to confront the real issues.

I'm sure you simply meant that things have gotten out of hand when weapons come in to play whatever way they did.

 

[NotMeKawaii]

In other news:

And a man with a machete was arrested NOS

 

[metalslimer]

After all that's happened please no one defend this racist minstrel show.

 

[Broken Joystick]

edit: beaten

 

[Merino]

In other news:

And a man with a machete was arrested NOS

Ok that is good to see. Reports were that Patrick Mathurin was not allowed into Maassluis.

 

[Shiloa]

Funny, I've just been working in The Netherlands for the last 2 weeks and talked about this with my Dutch colleagues.

It's genuinely not racist to them. Whatever the original history of it (slave/freed slave/Spanish chimney sweep), it's not that anymore. A bit like how words can change meaning over time, the character has too. Zwarte Piet is just a colourful clown and not anything more.

 

[Beefy]

Funny, I've just been working in The Netherlands for the last 2 weeks and talked about this with my Dutch colleagues.

It's genuinely not racist to them. Whatever the original history of it (slave/freed slave/Spanish chimney sweep), it's not that anymore. A bit like how words can change meaning over time, the character has too. Zwarte Piet is just a colourful clown and not anything more.

But it is racist

 

[Order]

Funny, I've just been working in The Netherlands for the last 2 weeks and talked about this with my Dutch colleagues.

It's genuinely not racist to them. Whatever the original history of it (slave/freed slave/Spanish chimney sweep), it's not that anymore. A bit like how words can change meaning over time, the character has too. Zwarte Piet is just a colourful clown and not anything more.

Were your colleagues white

 

[Don'tBeWeird]

Meh, personally seems better than cops shooting black people to me

Oh dear.

 

[Loudninja]

Not more to be said that has not been said again and again.

It is racist and it will always be racist just dont do it.

 

[RocknRola]

God damnit....Netherlands, bros, get your shit together :S

 

[Merino]

Funny, I've just been working in The Netherlands for the last 2 weeks and talked about this with my Dutch colleagues.

It's genuinely not racist to them. Whatever the original history of it (slave/freed slave/Spanish chimney sweep), it's not that anymore. A bit like how words can change meaning over time, the character has too. Zwarte Piet is just a colourful clown and not anything more.

Quite honestly, as a dutch person myself and someone trained in anthropology and who has had classes on the Dutch colonial involvement, there has simply been a hole in history where the Dutch involvement in the colonial time period should have been. We never really acknowledge or discuss our involvement in Indonesia, Suriname or in the slave trade nor has there been much international outrage over it.

A lot of it has gone by unnoticed for century's and has inhabited and habitualized racism in the Netherlands to the degree that people are entirely blind to it. The fact that they don't see it as racism doesn't make it any less so. Words don't change the history behind a tradition nor how it is viewed by members of anyone other than the dominant white race.

Piet is a clown yes, he just doesn't need to be black to be a clown (ever wondered why a black person would be painted as a clown and did you never wonder if the reason for that might not be racist/colonial/ethnocentric in origin. The noble savage)

 

[Beefy]

...

*Edit: crossed wires

 

[Shiloa]

But it is racist

Depends on how you see it.

Were your colleagues white

Totally 100% Aryan

 

[Banana Aeon]

Funny, I've just been working in The Netherlands for the last 2 weeks and talked about this with my Dutch colleagues.

It's genuinely not racist to them. Whatever the original history of it (slave/freed slave/Spanish chimney sweep), it's not that anymore. A bit like how words can change meaning over time, the character has too. Zwarte Piet is just a colourful clown and not anything more.

But it is racist.

 

[Theorry]

Not saying that you are implying that just stating facts and my opinion that I think that the pro-blackface people have been using the "It's a children's celebration" as a weak excuse to avoid to confront the real issues.

I'm sure you simply meant that things have gotten out of hand when weapons come in to play whatever way they did.

Ah oke. Yeah i meant that. That we are coming to a point that people are getting arrested for weapons at this kind of thing. Just shows something need to change.

Just the underlying problem is is what is happening these last years that older people are having the feeling the country is losing its identity. Thats why you see this really happen. Even deep down they know its time for a change. They always use its a "children's celebration" excuse but to be fair the childeren really dont mind it and arent looking at it that way.
My nephew saw a white person as "Black Piet" but he just called it "White Piet" just like he saw one with purple make up and he called him "Purple Piet"

 

[Don'tBeWeird]

Oh look another one

You misinterpreted my post. I'm not in agreement with him.

 

[Beefy]

Depends on how you see it.

Nope it is clearly racist

You misinterpreted my post. I'm not in agreement with him.

Thank god! Sorry

 

[ClosingADoor]

Embarrassing display once again. Grown ass people getting up in arms about a few minor changes to a kids party...

Quite honestly, as a dutch person myself and someone trained in anthropology and who has had classes on the Dutch colonial involvement, there has simply been a hole in history where the Dutch involvement in the colonial time period should have been. We never really acknowledge or discuss our involvement in Indonesia, Suriname or in the slave trade nor has there been much international outrage over it.

A lot of it has gone by unnoticed for century's and has inhabited and habitualized racism in the Netherlands to the degree that people are entirely blind to it. The fact that they don't see it as racism doesn't make it any less so. Words don't change the history behind a tradition nor how it is viewed by members of anyone other than the dominant white race.

Piet is a clown yes, he just doesn't need to be black to be a clown (ever wondered why a black person would be painted as a clown and did you never wonder if the reason for that might not be racist/colonial/ethnocentric in origin. The noble savage)

I don't know which school you went to, but that the Dutch were one of the biggest slave traders at that time was certainly thought in my high school. Could have used more attention for sure (the Golden Age stuff certainly painted a better picture then needed) but it is not glossed over. At least not by my history teacher back then.

 

[Shiloa]

Piet is a clown yes, he just doesn't need to be black to be a clown (ever wondered why a black person would be painted as a clown and did you never wonder if the reason for that might not be racist/colonial/ethnocentric in origin. The noble savage)

Doesn't it depend on which origin story you pick?

I've heard several. The most common one I've been told directly by the Dutch I've met is that it's soot. I feel this is a more modern rewriting to try and make it somehow acceptable but there are plenty of examples of characters rewritten by history to be worthier.

As a Brit I sure as hell found it odd when I first saw it. I was confused as to why there were a load of Gollywog's walking around.

 

[spekkeh]

Official statement said that the event was only open to children and their parents. They did allow for one protest group to attend but it was a pro-blackface protest by the NVU (Dutch Folk Union) that had as a slogan "We are not ashamed of Zwarte Piet". This group was the only group that was allowed to protest their case.

Disgusting.

In other news:

Good.

And a man with a machete was arrested NOS

Disgusting.

One out of three ain't bad?

It's changing, but it's changing sloooowly.

Amazed by Flanders. Last year they were all like 'Dumb Hollanders making this into a race thing, Zwarte Piet isn't racist, lol' and now they just whoop, banned the whole practice from official celebrations in one sweep. Radical change is a very, very un-Belgian thing to do. Wonder what happened there. Pretty jealous I must say.

 

[SamVimes]

I'm from and in one of the most racist country in Europe probably, so don't look at me m8

Lol I was on mobile and couldn't see your avatar. Ok we're both from one of the most racist countries in Europe.

 

[chaobreaker]

So the Dutch government actually stomps out anti-zwarte Piet dissention? Fuck them.

This is what happens when a country ignores their colonial history.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

Just paint him neon blue or something.

 

[bunbun777]

So gaf many years ago I was in hallmark and I noticed they had a "ethnic" section of Christmas cards, one of the sets was a black Santa with 2 adorable children. I bought them and sent them to family members. Thing is I'm white and so is my family, but I didn't care because it seemed good to challenge the norm and accept another way of expressing holiday cheer. But sometimes I have my doubts that what I did was wrong even though it didn't seem wrong. Bit off topic but was wondering if it was ok.

 

[ClosingADoor]

So the Dutch government actually stomps out anti-zwarte Piet dissention? Fuck them.

This is what happens when a country ignores their colonial history.

No, there are areas where you could protest. But if you didn't let the authorities know, you were denied entry for it. That goes for both sides. It was a safety measure.

There were designated zones for both sides to hold a protest as far as I know.

 

[Merino]

Doesn't it depend on which origin story you pick?

I've heard several. The most common one I've been told directly by the Dutch I've met is that it's soot. I feel this is a more modern rewriting to try and make it somehow acceptable but there are plenty of examples of characters rewritten by history to be worthier.

As a Brit I sure as hell found it odd when I first saw it. I was confused as to why there were a load of Gollywog's walking around.

Also the black curly hair and the ear rings come from the Creolen people in Suriname (the descent of African slaves)

 

[Theorry]

So the Dutch government actually stomps out anti-zwarte Piet dissention? Fuck them.

This is what happens when a country ignores their colonial history.

No that didnt happen. Everyone could demonstrate just at special zones. People who didnt announced it before were not allowed.

 

[Bananastand]

It's a yearly embarrassment for me. You can tell that it is slowly changing and I have hope that this whole discussion is over in a couple of years.