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[Raven Prime]

I would agree with you if they weren't given the option to protest. But they were given the option, and it was the best option they could be given. There is a freedom of speech, but it can't get in the way of public security, so no matter how I see it, the protesters were wrong, even when the local government was too.

The problem is that they aren't protesting something abstract, or a decision that is unfavorable. They are in fact protesting against something that is forbidden by law. The problem however is that the establishment isn't acknowledging that fact. Even though we have one court ruling claiming that Zwarte Piet is offensive and in fact racist.
Since the issue at hand is at the heart of the constitution and is so clear for those aware of the history, it must be protested at the spot. Not in some area where it is simply ignored. Yes Sinterklaas attracts many children, and it's unfortunate the parents lack the wisdom to boycott these events. But that is exactly the matter that is being protested. Just as much for those old and wise today, it must be protested to protect the innocents so they don't get injected with this poison.

Yellow Pete = Asian I guess? Wow that's some "compromise." More like a double-down.

(Sorry if already discussed)

The yellow Pete wouldn't hold any reference to a specific etnicity. In fact before the colonial age there were already traditions that involved helpers for St. Nicholas and his forebearers that were painted black in Europe. However under the influence of colonial thought the Dutch version transformed into a caricature of Sub Saharan Africans.
Personally I just want a Pete with the majority of his face covered in soot, but enough left open so you can see someone's actual skintone, regardless if that would be a dark or light skin. I also always find it curious that people of South East Asian decent are considered yellow, since many people that are considered 'white' also have yellowish or orange complexions, but that's another matter.

 

[Zamorro]

So you're against racism, but discrimination is totally okay? Anyone should be able to protest and treated equally in that regard. It's not the goverments job to decide who can and can't protest just because you assume one side doesn't have a good reason (no matter if that's true or not). I think the pro-Zwarte Piet protesters where irrational wackos for the most part but everyone is equally allowed to voice their opinion in a free society.

In any case, both groups weren't where they were allowed to protest so protesters from both were rightfully arrested.

You are right. Although these people are some racist far-right weirdo's, they have every right to protest.

 

[Raven Prime]

Zwarte piet 2010 and later doen't have the red lips. These are gone for years...

That's a total fabrication.

For example this is a picture of 'Grandpa Pete' from this years 'Sinterklaas News' considered by many to be most important media source concerning the narrative and details of the Sinterklaas festivities

It must be noted though, that the Sinterklaas News is clearly experimenting with that narrative and the appearance of Pete. They also introduced Soot Petes, in fact that's when they also introduced this Grandpa Pete, progress is being made, but one example from the media won't be enough of course to change all that engrained racism over night.

 

[methane47]

As long as they weren't literally shoved out of sight I don't see a problem with convining protesters to a certain area. I mean, when they left that area and went face to face with the other people the situation did indeed escalate and protesters and anti-protesters had to be arrested.

300 meters away, 10 minute walk, multiple blocks, across a river.

Yes, that is what protesting is for. They got a place to protest, they achieve exactly the same goal there but with less exposure. The simple thing is that they couldn't be given more exposure without compromising on public security.

This is just completely untrue. There was absolutely no danger to the crowd. When the police came there was STILL no danger to the crowd. the protest was completely peaceful. And some people continue to paint it as if it was a war zone, because there is one parent who said that the protesters yelled at his kid.

 

[Branduil]

The use of "free speech zones" seems obviously problematic to me. The PM's "not my problem" doesn't seem terribly helpful either.

 

[Mononoke]

This is possibly one of the reasons that people don't want to just modernize the look of 'piet' because they perceive it as the thin edge of the wedge.

Yeah, I can understand that. Because history matters. I still think they can make a new holiday though. People really just love the time of year, and they don't want that to go away. Okay, fine. So just make it a new holiday all together, that doesn't need to have a character that is a caricature or that excludes people.

Anyways, I just want to thank everyone for having a peaceful discussion, and letting me say my peace on it. Even if we don't agree. Thank you.

 

[Ruud_Luiten]

That's a total fabrication.

Haven't seen them for years. It's def. not default anymore.

 

[Kinyou]

300 meters away, 10 minute walk, multiple blocks, across a river.

But how many people pass through there? Is it like on the way to the parade and pretty much everyone will notice them? Or is it the opposite, and people who attend the parade rarely go that way?

 

[DrSlek]

War......war never changes.

 

[Ruud_Luiten]

How did those American children manage to sneak into Belgium? They obviously weren't European since racism doesn't exist there.

Nobody said this... Don't make things worse please.

 

[Prophet Steve]

The problem is that they aren't protesting something abstract, or a decision that is unfavorable. They are in fact protesting against something that is forbidden by law. The problem however is that the establishment isn't acknowledging that fact. Even though we have one court ruling claiming that Zwarte Piet is offensive and in fact racist.
Since the issue at hand is at the heart of the constitution and is so clear for those aware of the history, it must be protested at the spot. Not in some area where it is simply ignored. Yes Sinterklaas attracts many children, and it's unfortunate the parents lack the wisdom to boycott these event. But that is exactly the matter that is being protested. Just as much for those old and wise today, it must be protested to protect the innocents so they don't get injected with this poison.



The yellow Pete wouldn't hold any reference to a specific etnicity. In fact before the colonial age there were already traditions that involved helpers for St. Nicholas and his forebearers that were painted black in Europe. However under the influence of colonial thought the Dutch version transformed into a caricature of Sub Saharan Africans.
Personally I just want a Pete with the majority of his face covered in soot, but enough left open so you can see someone's actual skintone, regardless if that would be a dark or light skin. I also always find it curious that people of South East Asian are considered yellow, since many people that are considered 'white' also have yellowish or orange complexions, but that's another matter.

Court didn't make it forbidden by law, but said that zwarte piet enforces a negative stereotype. It also wasn't a national ruling. I also don't know against which part of the constitution it goes, as they are actually treated the same. The zwarte piet wasn't deemed illegal, but since it emforces negative stereotypes it may result in more racism.

By the way, the protesters are also going against the constitution in this case. Two wrongs don't make a right and the police even did allow them to stay at first.

I also don't see how it needs to be protested on the spot if they break the constitution. You can't assume it will be ignored at the different spot.

But how many people pass through there? Is it like on the way to the parade and pretty much everyone will notice them? Or is it the opposite, and people who attend the parade rarely go that way?

They got a spot right next to the station. I think at a governments building or something. The entire goal was to have both groups avoid the parade so that there wouldn't be a conflict.

 

[Linius]

But how many people pass through there? Is it like on the way to the parade and pretty much everyone will notice them? Or is it the opposite, and people who attend the parade rarely go that way?

It's also in downtown Gouda. And people who attend the parade with their kids don't have to pass trough because these people wouldn't have given the demonstration attention anyways. The most important thing is that the anti Piet location was an easy to reach area in central Gouda. It's not like they were put away in some secluded area outside of Gouda where no one would have noticed them.

 

[Raven Prime]

Haven't seen them for years. It's def. not default anymore.

Check my edit. It is the default, however things are changing here and there. But thusfar the changes have been few and inconsistent.

Court didn't make it forbidden by law, but said that zwarte piet enforces a negative stereotype. It also wasn't a national ruling. I also don't know against which part of the constitution it goes, as they are actually treated the same. The zwarte piet wasn't deemed illegal, but since it emforces negative stereotypes it may result in more racism.

By the way, the protesters are also going against the constitution in this case. Two wrongs don't make a right and the police even did allow them to stay at first.

I also don't see how it needs to be protested on the spot if they break the constitution. You can't assume it will be ignored at the different spot.



They got a spot right next to the station. I think at a governments building or something.

I know it's not a national ruling, I was just adding nuance to my own claim that the establishment is downplaying the issue.

And how are these protests against the constitution exactly? The anti ZP activists are defending article 1 of the constitution.

 

[methane47]

But how many people pass through there? Is it like on the way to the parade and pretty much everyone will notice them? Or is it the opposite, and people who attend the parade rarely go that way?

No one, its in the opposite direction from the parade route.

The protest areas are basically the very most northern part of this map. Maybe even outside the map.

It's also in downtown Gouda. And people who attend the parade with their kids don't have to pass trough because these people wouldn't have given the demonstration attention anyways. The most important thing is that the anti Piet location was an easy to reach area in central Gouda. It's not like they were put away in some secluded area outside of Gouda where no one would have noticed them.

Protests are not a service thats provided incase you feel like speaking out.
A parent wouldn't attend the parade and then say... Hmmm this is a fun loving parade, but maybe I should walk 3 blocks down the road in the opposite direction from the parade in order to find out what the people who dislike this tradition have to say.

 

[Prophet Steve]

Check my edit. It is the default, however things are changing here and there. But thusfar the changes have been few and inconsistent.



I know it's not a national ruling, I was just adding nuance to my own claim that the establishment is downplaying the issue.

And how are these protests against the constitution exactly? The anti ZP activists are defending article 1 of the constitution.

Artikel 6
1. Ieder heeft het recht zijn godsdienst of levensovertuiging, individueel of in gemeenschap met anderen, vrij te belijden, behoudens ieders verantwoordelijkheid volgens de wet.

2. De wet kan ter zake van de uitoefening van dit recht buiten gebouwen en besloten plaatsen regels stellen ter bescherming van de gezondheid, in het belang van het verkeer en ter bestrijding of voorkoming van wanordelijkheden.

Point 2 states that practicing the display of a perception of life can be limited by law in the concern of the prevention of public disorder. Which was the case here.

The mayor of Amsterdam has also said they they want to get rid of all "negroid sterotypes" within four years after the ruling which I think is pretty reasonable.

 

[Lime]

The insensitivity towards and the marginalization of people's lived experiences are even more frustrating and infuriating when you consider the historical role that the Netherlands and Belgium played during colonization, post colonization, and the transatlantic slave trade. These societies have contributed to so much of the African genocide yet they still haven't learned enough about respecting other people with visible differences (despite them having the same citizenship and legal rights) make this obviously signified racist tradition so incredibly offensive.

 

[Archaix]

edit: Completely misread something, my mistake. Absent of my misread comment: "Free speech" zones and protest areas away from the thing you're protesting are entirely ridiculous. It would have been equally absurd to tell the people watching the parade that they had to go a few miles away from the parade. "You can protest, just do it quietly, away from people who might get upset" misses the entire point of a protest and I'm glad that the people here disobeyed the order.

 

[Raven Prime]

The mayor of Amsterdam has also said they they want to get rid of all "negroid sterotypes" within four years after the ruling which I think is pretty reasonable.

We'll quit all racist stereotypes in 4 years sounds reasonable? "Just endure four more years of suffering people, don't complain!"

I mean the realist in me understands it will roughly take 4 years, it doesn't mean people shouldn't protest it in the meanwhile. It should change right now. It is wrong for it to continue period. So I accept the timeframe on basis of rationality, but I can't accept the injustice itself.

Artikel 6
1. Ieder heeft het recht zijn godsdienst of levensovertuiging, individueel of in gemeenschap met anderen, vrij te belijden, behoudens ieders verantwoordelijkheid volgens de wet.

2. De wet kan ter zake van de uitoefening van dit recht buiten gebouwen en besloten plaatsen regels stellen ter bescherming van de gezondheid, in het belang van het verkeer en ter bestrijding of voorkoming van wanordelijkheden.

Point 2 states that practicing the display of a perception of life can be limited by law in the concern of the prevention of public disorder. Which was the case here.

No that's regarding the right of freedom of religion. It says it can interfere when religion conflicts with public health or general order.

 

[Linius]

No one, its in the opposite direction from the parade route.



The protest areas are basically the very most northern part of this map. Maybe even outside the map.



Protests are not a service thats provided incase you feel like speaking out.
A parent wouldn't attend the parade and then say... Hmmm this is a fun loving parade, but maybe I should walk 3 blocks down the road in the opposite direction from the parade in order to find out what the people who dislike this tradition have to say.

You sure have ways to make it sound like a ten minute walk is a terrible thing no human would endeavour.

Then again, it's also highly unlikely people would go to a parade with their kids and then take them to a demonstration against the whole thing they were just celebrating.

 

[Prophet Steve]

We'll quit all racist stereotypes in 4 years sounds reasonable? "Just endure four more years of suffering people, don't complain!"

I mean the realist in me understands it will roughly take 4 years, it doesn't mean people shouldn't protest it in the meanwhile. It should change right now. It is wrong for it to continue period. So I accept the timeframe on basis of rationality, but I can't accept the injustice itself.

And again, I never said they shouldn't be allowed to protest. Meanwhile you seem to be pretending that they are all ignored, that this is an issue that nothing is done about.

There is something being done about this, we aren't breaking our constitution, the ruling did not say it was illegal and don't protest somewhere where you are told you shouldn't to prevent public disorder, as you are breaking the constitution.

EDIT: It also says levensovertuiging, which I assume this falls under.

EDIT 2: Sorry, wrong article, this is the approriate one, more clear too:

Artikel 8
Het recht tot vereniging wordt erkend. Bij de wet kan dit recht worden beperkt in het belang van de openbare orde.

The right to unison is acknowledged. By law this right can be limited in the concern of public order.

Or article 9, which states the same thing, but in regards to debate and expression.

Anyhow, no matter which article, they all state that there can be rules to prevent public disorder.

 

[Raven Prime]

The insensitivity towards and the marginalization of people's lived experiences are even more frustrating and infuriating when you consider the historical role that the Netherlands and Belgium played during colonization, post colonization, and the transatlantic slave trade. These societies have contributed to so much of the African genocide yet they still haven't learned enough about respecting other people with visible differences (despite them having the same citizenship and legal rights) make this obviously signified racist tradition so incredibly offensive.

Indeed, there is still so much 'white privilege' and institutional racism. It doesn't help that both countries have seen the rise of mainstream xenophobic right wing political parties.

And again, I never said they shouldn't be allowed to protest. Meanwhile you seem to be pretending that they are all ignored, that this is an issue that nothing is done about.

There is something being done about this, we aren't breaking our constitution, the ruling did not say it was illegal and don't protest somewhere where you are told you shouldn't to prevent public disorder, as you are breaking the constitution.

EDIT: It also says levensovertuiging, which I assume this falls under.

We seem to be going in circles. What is there left for me to say to you what I didn't already point out or alluded to?
The Zwarte Piet is Racisme movement isn't ignored, but it's laughed away and marginalized by many Dutch people. Even the politicians make hand waving gestures when questioned about the topic. Sure things are changing, but that doesn't mean people should grow complacent. In many areas nothing is changing as of now. The changes that are being made tend to be very small.

The breaking of the constitution is simply the fact that a racist caricature can't possibly not be a form of racism and therefore discrimination. Many Dutch are just ignoring this or flat out denying this, even when judges, historians, art historians etc. etc. are pointing out that it is.

Also Sinterklaas isn't a way of life or personal conviction, it's simply a tradition. And even if it was, would it trump article 1 of the constitution? Of course not. You even quoted an article that shows that this freedom is limited to the point where it interferes with the public order. People should have the freedom of religion, conviction or even ways of life in so far as that they don't hurt or actively bother other people.

EDIT 2: Sorry, wrong article, this is the approriate one, more clear too:



The right to unison is acknowledged. By law this right can be limited in the concern of public order.

Or article 9, which states the same thing, but in regards to debate and expression.

Anyhow, no matter which article, they all state that there can be rules to prevent public disorder.

Sure. But ask yourself if this right should still be exercised when that same goverment that needs to enforce article 8 and up fails to enforce article 1?
There are times when civil disobedience are called for, I would argue this is a clear example of when to exercise that option.

 

[Raven Prime]

Edit: Didn't notice the thread slowed down again, moved my comment up. (A mod can delete this if possible)

 

[bishoptl]

I can't get that worked up about the protestors being outside of their "designated zone", sorry. If holding up a mirror to a tradition of bullshit makes some parents uncomfortable and perhaps even explain to their kid what the fuss is about, so be it.

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

We'll quit all racist stereotypes in 4 years sounds reasonable? "Just endure four more years of suffering people, don't complain!"

I mean the realist in me understands it will roughly take 4 years, it doesn't mean people shouldn't protest it in the meanwhile. It should change right now. It is wrong for it to continue period. So I accept the timeframe on basis of rationality, but I can't accept the injustice itself.

People don't react well too instant or sudden change. Change, especially concerning traditions is inherently slow, heck I'll go as far as to say it needs to be slow.

 

[Prophet Steve]

Indeed, there is still so much 'white privilege' and institutional racism. It doesn't help that both countries have seen the rise of mainstream xenophobic right wing political parties.



We seem to be going in circles. What is there left for me to say to you what I didn't already point out or alluded to?
The Zwarte Piet is Racisme movement isn't ignored, but it's laughed away and marginalized by many Dutch people. Even the politicians make hand waving gestures when questioned about the topic. Sure things are changing, but that doesn't mean people should grow complacent. In many areas nothing is changing as of now. The changes that are being made tend to be very small.

The breaking of the constitution is simply the fact that a racist caricature can't possibly not be a form of racism and therefore discrimination. Many Dutch are just ignoring this or flat out denying this, even when judges, historians, art historians etc. etc. are pointing out that it is.

Also Sinterklaas isn't a way of life or personal conviction, it's simply a tradition. And even if it was, would it trump article 1 of the constitution? Of course not. You even quoted an article that shows that this freedom is limited to the point where it interferes with the public order. People should have the freedom of religion, conviction or even ways of life in so far as that they don't hurt or actively bother other people.

No it wouldn't trump article 1 of the constitution. Even if article 1 is broken, of which court say it didn't since you brought it up, it doesn't mean the protestors need to break another constitution (I assume 9 is broken then, but certainly one of them is broken), that doesn't make sense, even if they feel their other efforts do not make enough of an impact.

In my eyes, it is unjustifiable as there are changes. There could always be more attention, but the choice was here between less exposure or more exposure and breaking the constitution and then you need to choose for less exposure in my opinion. There was an option.

 

[Raven Prime]

I can't get that worked up about the protestors being outside of their "designated zone", sorry. If holding up a mirror to a tradition of bullshit makes some parents uncomfortable and perhaps even explain to their kid what the fuss is about, so be it.

Same here, I would bring up that MLK quote up again but it has already been posted something like 3 times. But people are really(?) worried about relative order, when we should be worried about social justice.

 

[Prophet Steve]

Same here, I would bring up that MLK quote up again but it has already been posted something like 3 times. But people are really(?) worried about relative order, when we should we worried about social justice.

You are pretending that there is no other option.

There was and the issue is highlighted in the media. There are limits to how far you can push your agenda. If we have reached the point in this thread title, we might have pushed a bit too far if there was a valid other option.

I can't get that worked up about the protestors being outside of their "designated zone", sorry. If holding up a mirror to a tradition of bullshit makes some parents uncomfortable and perhaps even explain to their kid what the fuss is about, so be it.

I don't think people mind when they protest near the parade or during the parade. At first they were even allowed to stay, but it is reckless when there is a known opposite of the group also active there while in a festival comprised of many children.

 

[Log4Girlz]

I saw a little music video with girls singing a Zwarte Piet song (kinda catchy) from just a few years ago. Yeah they were depicted as buffoonish. You cannot erase its history. They depict blacks in an unflattering light and it is unacceptable. Also you have to ask why is it Whites who are always so eager to depict other races? Its because they have been in a position of power and they feel comfortable caricaturing peoples they've had power over.

 

[Raven Prime]

People don't react well too instant or sudden change. Change, especially concerning traditions is inherently slow, heck I'll go as far as to say it needs to be slow.

I know, but not all traditions are as problematic. It's very likely Zwarte Piet will still be part of celebrations next year, at least in some parts in the Netherlands and especially in Belgium since they don't even have the public debate yet.
The problem is that we are dealing with a colonial caricature here. Let that sink in, it's a damned colonial caricature. It's 2014 right now. it has had all the time of the world to change slowly, but in the last century very little has changed. Basically only the accent went away and the Spain kidnapping narrative, including the birch.

No it wouldn't trump article 1 of the constitution. Even if article 1 is broken, of which court say it didn't since you brought it up, it doesn't mean the protestors need to break another constitution (I assume 9 is broken then, but certainly one of them is broken), that doesn't make sense, even if they feel their other efforts do not make enough of an impact.

In my eyes, it is unjustifiable as there are changes. There could always be more attention, but the choice was here between less exposure or more exposure and breaking the constitution and then you need to choose for less exposure in my opinion. There was an option.

You are pretending that there is no other option.

There was and the issue is highlighted in the media. There are limits to how far you can push your agenda. If we have reached the point in this thread title, we might have pushed a bit too far if there was a valid other option.



I don't think people mind when they protest near the parade or during the parade. At first they were even allowed to stay, but it is reckless when there is a known opposite of the group also active there while in a festival comprised of many children.

I'm not pretending there aren't other options at all. It just seems you aren't as offended by a racist caricature being part of a children's celebration. I think it's unreasonable to expose children and adults to it, you think it's unreasonable to expose that same group to the dissatisfaction about that.
On that note we can keep going back and forth ad infinitum. Since you'll keep downplaying what in my eyes is a very serious problem.

The media can change the narrative and it is changing it, at least certain parts of it. But still that change is very slow. You claim there is change but that is perhaps only focused on Amsterdam and still then the change is very little. People are just fed up with being confronted with a racist caricature period. If you step on my toe, I really don't care if you take your foot away slowly or soon enough. I want it gone now.

 

[Prophet Steve]

I know, but not all traditions are as problematic. It's very likely Zwarte Piet will still be part of celebrations next year, at least in some parts in the Netherlands and especially in Belgium since they don't even have the public debate yet.
The problem is that we are dealing with a colonial caricature here. Let that sink in, it's a damned colonial caricature. It's 2014 right now. it has had all the time of the world to change slowly, but in the last century very little has changed. Basically only the accent went away and the Spain kidnapping narrative, including the birch.





I'm not pretending there aren't other options at all. It just seems you aren't as offended by a racist caricature being part of a children's celebration. I think it's unreasonable to expose children and adults to it, you think it's unreasonable to expose that same group to the dissatisfaction about that.
On that note we can keep going back and forth ad infinitum. Since you'll keep downplaying what in my eyes is a very serious problem.

The media can change the narrative and it is changing it, at least certain parts of it. But still that change is very slow. You claim there is change but that is perhaps only focused on Amsterdam and still then the change is very little. People are just fed up with being confronted with a racist caricature period. If you step on my toe, I really don't care if you take your foot away slowly or soon enough. I want it gone now.

I am not talking about dissatisfaction, I am not downplaying anything.

I think the it the outermost limit of what the local government could do for the protesters. It isn't like cancelling the event wouldn't risk public outrage, the change needs to be in public perception.

The government couldn't allow anything more than this, I think it is reasonable for the safety of everyone that was there. Really, I wish they could have had more exposure, but I don't see any way they could without compromising the safety of the people there.

If you are saying that the end justify the means in this case then that is your view, but I think you are downplaying the presence of escalations like this in the presence of children. And these escalations were completely expected as it was the entire reason they weren't allowed to be there.

 

[Sadist]

The true sad thing about all of this that full grown men and women can't actually talk about this and want to fight over it in public in front of kids. Thanks for that. Both sides disgust me.

As a Dutchie myself I'm growing so, so tired about this discussion. Both sides of the argument are becoming more agressive every year ever since the discussion started and keep beating around the bush. I can understand why folks from around the world find this racist as fuck (hell, several aspects aren't flattering) but throwing around the "fucking racist Dutch leberraaargh" argument is pathetic as well. Some of you can't accept that it takes time for a certain amount of the Dutch population to accept that a tradition in time can change. If you try to force them down their throats you'll get the problems as they are right now. Still, I do hope we'll get to keep a variation of Zwarte Piet; soot smudges or something like it. Keep around some mystery and the like.

As for Gouda... I'm terribly ashamed of my country.

I can't get that worked up about the protestors being outside of their "designated zone", sorry. If holding up a mirror to a tradition of bullshit makes some parents uncomfortable and perhaps even explain to their kid what the fuss is about, so be it.

I don't think it's about parents being uncomfortable talking about the issue, but some of the anti-Pieten movement not behaving themselves and yelling at little children they're racist. If a grown man or woman starts to scream at a kid, that's where we draw a line.

 

[Jugendstil]

We, like, hate racism but we call black footballers monkeys... and that's cool.

Commenting only because a Kroll Show / Spotted Ox Hostel reference deserves a shout out. Well done!

 

[User 73706]

No, completely wrong. Instead of only 'black' petes, they also have petes of yellow, pink, blue, whatever colour.... just so people don't associate the coloured faces of the petes with any colours of races...

That just sounds like someone dusted off the old "I'm not racist, you can be any color you want - black, yellow, blue, pink, purple - just keep that natural hair music off my streets" defense.

 

[Pennywise]

The media can change the narrative and it is changing it, at least certain parts of it. But still that change is very slow. You claim there is change but that is perhaps only focused on Amsterdam and still then the change is very little. People are just fed up with being confronted with a racist caricature period. If you step on my toe, I really don't care if you take your foot away slowly or soon enough. I want it gone now.

You are from the netherlands ?
Is there any form to send petitions to the government that actually reaches them ?
The german parliament has a plattform where everyone can start a petition, which anybody can sign and discuss.
Obviously the more people signing it, the easier it will reach the parliament and will be discussed by the politics.

Another way would be participating in a political party and standing up for your opinion...that's sadly something alot of people tend to forget.
You can always participate, unless you'll try that in the conservative party obviously.

 

[Raven Prime]

I am not talking about dissatisfaction, I am not downplaying anything.

I think the it the outermost limit of what the local government could do for the protesters. It isn't like cancelling the event wouldn't risk public outrage, the change needs to be in public perception.

The government couldn't allow anything more than this, I think it is reasonable for the safety of everyone that was there. Really, I wish they could have had exposure, but I don't see any way they could without compromising the safety of the people there.

If you are saying that the end justify the means in this case then that is your view, but I think you are downplaying the presence of escalations like this in the presence of children. And these escalations were completely expected as it was the entire reason they weren't allowed to be there.

I'm talking about dissatisfaction and the right to make it known.

Also let's make it clear that I'm far from an 'end justifies the means' kind of guy. I just think people are overreacting when they bring up the concern for all those children. Because I never hear those same people voice their concern about exposing children to racist colonial caricatures.

I'll just post the message the Zwarte Piet is Racisme community posted on Facebook, the day before the parade, when the mayor revoked their right to demonstrate

PRESS RELEASE Mayor Gouda prohibits peaceful protest on Gouda Market the municipality Gouda has forbidden us during the national entry 2014 our opinion on the Goudse market. We had intended to peacefully attend the entry: a silent protest, without violence.

The municipality of Gouda claims that our silent Protest will provoke and that aggressive pro Zwarte Piet demonstrators will not respect our rights. We are limited in our freedom because aggressive pro Black Peter could disrupt public order. This means that aggressive behavior is rewarded and this may encourage similar behavior in the future.

Come to the market in Gouda We call on everyone to come to Gouda in the spirit of Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandela to make known that the racist caricature Zwarte Piet has no place in a civilized country. Unjust measures against the freedom of expression is something we cannot accept. The Ombudsman found recently that the police in the arrest of anti-piet demonstrators in 2011 acted "contrary to the requirement of that fundamental rights should be respected", including freedom of expression. The police is supposed to protect the peaceful protest from aggressive pro-Zwarte Piet protesters.

We call on everyone with the bus, public transport or your own transport to get to Gouda. In Amsterdam the bus departs at 09.30 from Amstel station. As the bus goes down we come by public transport. If we are stopped in Gouda we call for peaceful protest in the spirit of We Shall Overcome!

For sign up, questions and more information: KOzwartepiet@gmail.com

https://www.facebook.com/zwartepietisblackface/posts/927440153950620

 

[Zamorro]

I don't think it's about parents being uncomfortable talking about the issue, but some of the anti-Pieten movement not behaving themselves and yelling at little children they're racist. If a grown man or woman starts to scream at a kid, that's where we draw a line.

Have you got a source for this? Someone posted a link that there was a lot of pushing after the police intervened and people were shouting but there was no mention of anything particular:

http://www.metronieuws.nl/nieuws/du...interklaasintocht-gouda/SrZnko!w70aOjWec5N9k/

Sounds like some people are using the emotional effect of childen to discredit the protesters.

 

[Raven Prime]

You are from the netherlands ?
Is there any form to send petitions to the government that actually reaches them ?
The german parliament has a plattform where everyone can start a petition, which anybody can sign and discuss.
Obviously the more people signing it, the easier it will reach the parliament and will be discussed by the politics.

Another way would be participating in a political party and standing up for your opinion...that's sadly something alot of people tend to forget.
You can always participate, unless you'll try that in the conservative party obviously.

Like a referendum? I'm not so sure, if the options exist I think they are quite limited. I believe one Dutch party D66 is very big on that, but they aren't that influential.

Of course politics are always a way, but personally I could never deal with that. At least not now. Perhaps in 15-20 years, but still I think there are more effective methods. I rather create change from within society not from 'above'.

 

[Prophet Steve]

I'm talking about dissatisfaction and the right to make it known.

Also let's make it clear that I'm far from an 'end justifies the means' kind of guy. I just think people are overreacting when they bring up the concern for all those children. Because I never hear those same people voice their concern about exposing children to racist colonial caricatures.

I'll just post the message the Zwarte Piet is Racisme community posted on Facebook, the day before the parade, when the mayor revoked their right to demonstrate

https://www.facebook.com/zwartepietisblackface/posts/927440153950620

In this discussion I only have concern for children being between two opposing groups, I agree that the racial perception is also concerning but it isn't worth it to put children in such an environment for that.

And I know of that Facebook message, they said they wouldn't provoke anyone. Their presence however provoked the other group. They didn't mean to, but this is what was expected, the mayor was justified in his ruling to keep public order with children around.

I am off to bed now, sorry.

Have you got a source for this? Someone posted a link that there was a lot of pushing after the police intervened and people were shouting but there was no mention of anything particular:

http://www.metronieuws.nl/nieuws/du...interklaasintocht-gouda/SrZnko!w70aOjWec5N9k/

Sounds like some people are using the emotional effect of childen to discredit the protesters.

Even the title mentions yelling and cursing.

Edit: Oh sorry towards kids there was only a mention of yelling.

 

[Sadist]

Have you got a source for this? Someone posted a link that there was a lot of pushing after the police intervened and people were shouting but there was no mention of anything particular:

http://www.metronieuws.nl/nieuws/du...interklaasintocht-gouda/SrZnko!w70aOjWec5N9k/

Sounds like some people are using the emotional effect of childen to discredit the protesters.

Article does state there was peaceful protesting going on at first, but after a while pro-zwarte Piet folks gathered to block out the protesters. After that things got weird, name calling, swearing and a bit physical. It even got grimm. Apparently some parents do believe some of the protesters did target their (grand)children with some of their chants.

But, my initial point still stands (for both sides on the argument); in the end this is a kid's holiday and if two groups are making a ruckus (regardless of their stance on the issue) and endangering kids in the process, throw them in jail.

And you might have to accept that people are not going to be polite, asking for respect and dignity. A lot of people deal with racism constantly and don't have patience. It's a global phenomenon where citizens are becoming more frustrated and less patient with discrimination or stereotypes.

Hey you're not wrong man. But patience is sadly the only thing to have.

 

[andthebeatgoeson]

The true sad thing about all of this that full grown men and women can't actually talk about this and want to fight over it in public in front of kids. Thanks for that. Both sides disgust me.

As a Dutchie myself I'm growing so, so tired about this discussion. Both sides of the argument are becoming more agressive every year ever since the discussion started and keep beating around the bush. I can understand why folks from around the world find this racist as fuck (hell, several aspects aren't flattering) but throwing around the "fucking racist Dutch leberraaargh" argument is pathetic as well. Some of you can't accept that it takes time for a certain amount of the Dutch population to accept that a tradition in time can change. If you try to force them down their throats you'll get the problems as they are right now. Still, I do hope we'll get to keep a variation of Zwarte Piet; soot smudges or something like it. Keep around some mystery and the like.

.

And you might have to accept that people are not going to be polite, asking for respect and dignity. A lot of people deal with racism constantly and don't have patience. It's a global phenomenon where citizens are becoming more frustrated and less patient with discrimination or stereotypes.

 

[Zamorro]

Even the title mentions screaming and cursing.

Edit: Oh sorry towards kids there was only a mention of yelling.

Edit: Yeah. That is what I meant.

 

[Jawbreaker]

I don't think their government should be sponsoring/funding a celebration that revolves around a caricature of black people, no matter how much people want to defend "tradition." Just because something is a tradition it doesn't mean it can't change as people become more aware of racial issues and inequality. If a group of people want to go out in "soot" and red lips/afros on their own time and spend their own money to create an event, whatever, as long as people also have the right to protest against it.

 

[Ovid]

Geez, every year a Zwart Piet threat gets created and every year it leads to multiple casualties.

The thread should be called "Zwarte Piet Controversy Leads to 90 Arrests in Netherlands and Dozens of Bannings on GAF".

It's a racist and insensitive Dutch tradition that just needs to go away.

 

[Raven Prime]

Some footage of when the police made their arrests and how they singled out Kno'Ledge Cesare, one of the initiators of the Zwarte Piet is Racisme movement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TGvi3y9cIg

You can also see one of the policemen punch him when he is defenseless on the ground and hear how he yells "Ik kan niet ademhalen!" in desperation, which means "I can't breathe!".

 

[Wazzy]

I can't believe people are still defending this tradition. It's blatantly racist.

I'm glad people are starting to protest this and I have no problem with where they were protesting.

 

[block tower]

real question, why are adults in the Netherlands so invested in this holiday?? its weird to me as an American that so many adults seem to dress up for something like this. in America you have adults dress up as Santa, Mrs. Clause, and Elves, but its not that common for the average person to get dressed up as one of those three things and parade about.

 

[Necromanti]

I can't believe people are still defending this tradition. It's blatantly racist.

I'm glad people are starting to protest this and I have no problem with where they were protesting.

It's either that some people get really defensive about their traditions and are willing to defend them at any cost (and have internalized that the way things are is perfectly acceptable because that's how it has always been), or we're really underestimating just how much Dutch kids love racist traditions.

 

[User 73706]

Are there any examples of success stories regarding racist traditions getting called out as being outdated, offensive and unacceptable and subsequently getting a rebranding with positive results? I don't mean it in a defeatist, calling-zwarte-out-is-fruitless sort of way. I just seriously can't think of anything substantial immediately off the top of my head.

And I mean traditions. Recurring Kirby bosses that get un-Mr. Popo'd in remasters and shit don't count.

 

[Sadist]

real question, why are adults in the Netherlands so invested in this holiday?? its weird to me as an American that so many adults seem to dress up for something like this. in America you have adults dress up as Santa, Mrs. Clause, and Elves, but its not that common for the average person to get dressed up as one of those three things and parade about.

It's a bit of tradition here for Sinterklaas to make one big entrance every year (in every city or town) and the Pieten help out by treating kids candy. Adults dress up to make it one big festivity.

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

real question, why are adults in the Netherlands so invested in this holiday?? its weird to me as an American that so many adults seem to dress up for something like this. in America you have adults dress up as Santa, Mrs. Clause, and Elves, but its not that common for the average person to get dressed up as one of those three things and parade about.

There is a big entrance tied to the tradition, also in schools and such they show up as well to give the kids candy.