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[Who]

So what is it Offensive to if not Race?

It could definitely be offensive to the black race, especially in the context of history, but racism is defined as a belief that one race is superior or inferior to another.

While I definitely cringe at this, I have a hard time classifying them all as racist when they are most likely just innocently following a tradition. Just as many Christians naively and innocently follow their traditions which are actually full of paganistic and dark themes.

Racism is such a heavy and hateful term that gets tossed around all to frequently in these discussions.

 

[ape2man]

The + sign next to quote allows you to multi-quote. Click it for each post you'd like to quote, and then when you reply, it will list the various quotes in order. This will save you from posting multiple times in a row.

lol, did not know this thought it was just a icon. thx.

 

[Joni]

Yes, you can do all that and a lot of times what you end up with is protests that nobody sees or hears about because they get effectively shelved away by the establishment. This is exactly why sometimes protest groups, despite having these sanctioned methods, go outside those bounds.

The applicable article from the European Convention of Human Rights disagrees. They would have gotten attention anyway, now they got attention because they needed to get arrested.

No restrictions shall be placed on the exercise of these rights other than such as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.

 

[Strike]

Forget "tradition". This is just as ridiculous as the Redskins controversy.

 

[methane47]

No, it isn't. In most civilized countries, you can actually get licenses to protest. It is a way for the government to let people express their problems without disturbing the public peace too much and to make sure everything can happen in civilized manners.

I wish we could see where the designated protest area was for this Gouda Demonstration.
I'm willing to bet that it was no where near the actual parade.

 

[Pennywise]

And some of the discussions in Germany I've seen in regards to treatment of Muslims are similar to how other European countries conduct their discourses on Muslims. See also what Günter Wallraff tried to do.

I'm not saying Germany is as incompetent as e.g. France, Netherlands, or Denmark, but there is a problem that Continental Europe is having when it comes to talking about race, I would argue.

Sweden knows what's up, though.

Wallraff is a piece of steaming dogshit, every sane person would tell you that.
He loves himself and the praise from idiots, who're believing that his "research" actually proves anything.
And you know what ?
Not too long ago when my gf and I where heading to the university and we could use the ICE train, because the regular one was late, he was sitting there with his book up front so everybody would notice him.

That asshole got alot of right criticism for his actions on several of his actions.
The difference is, there is a faction that's always louder.
In that case it's the Bild crowd, in the USA it would be the Fox crowd and so on, they're always louder than serious newspapers/stations.

For me personally, I avoid the term race alltogether.
First of all, it's incorrect within the biological terms of taxonomy and also within the anthropology it's a term not up to date anymore.

And I get your criticsm about the treatment of Muslims in Germany, which I can also agree to.

Here is a posting about that topic I made a while ago, allthough it's more focused on immigration, it also includes some points that fit well into our discussion :

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=127301201&postcount=172


These days the discussions are quite good, but it's not something that changes overnight.
The problem is, it took way too long until we actually had the discussions and I won't argue that there were some laughable arguments within the discussions.

There are proper discussions now and alot of people know how to articulate themselves and how to handle it and others.
As I said though, it's something that needs more time until real change will occur.
Obviously we will never have a perfect situation in any country or anywhere on the world, but it takes alot more time to change something to the positive, as it takes build up a worse status quo.

 

[MedIC86]

As a citizen of holland im really getting sick of the discussion, there are way worse things in the world to care about. Besides they can and never will ban sinterklaar or zwartepiet, simply because they cant do it. I would really like to see them try arresting all kids dressed up like him. So in the end, the people will have to change, but that is going to take a long time, since some people (a lot) view it as a cultural thing that has nothing to do with racism.

 

[Union Carbine]

The applicable article from the European Convention of Human Rights disagrees. They would have gotten attention anyway, now they got attention because they needed to get arrested.

Obviously you and they disagree. They chose their spot for a reason, presumably for exposure-- maybe even to get arrested, as you say.

 

[Raven Prime]

Over here you don't have to break rules to protest against something. As was also the case this time. The protestors got a desginated area for them to hold their protest which was for obvious reasons away from the festivities. As said multiple times before in this thread. So there's really no excuse for the protestors to show up anyways. And everyone could have known beforehand that if they decide to show up other people will react to it. Murphy's law.

You shouldn't have to shy away from the oppressors. If the majority of the Dutch are racist and the Netherlands is still a country governed by law and takes it's own constitution seriously. Then it has to be exposed and the law enforced. Sadly the Dutch constitution seems to be too easily discarded right now.

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

I remember posting the correct lore in last years edition

10/10 Hahaha.

/dead

 

[Prophet Steve]

As a citizen of holland im really getting sick of the discussion, there are way worse things in the world to care about. Besides they can and never will ban sinterklaar or zwartepiet, simply because they cant do it. I would really like to see them try arresting all kids dressed up like him. So in the end, the people will have to change, but that is going to take a long time, since some people (a lot) view it as a cultural thing that has nothing to do with racism.

It is very dismissive to think this way. There are always bigger issues in the world, but we are not going to create a task list where we are going to start with "End world poverty" and on spot #4567 have "Do something about zwarte pieten in The Netherlands". Having bigger issues is not an excuse to not do something about smaller issues. Particularly if those may seem much more relevant to some people than issues in other regions may be.

That it is difficult to change is not a valid excuse to not try to fix it either, the more effort we put in, the faster it will go. If people never put in the effort, it will never change.

 

[Linius]

I wish we could see where the designated protest area was for this Gouda Demonstration.
I'm willing to bet that it was no where near the actual parade.

It's a ten minutes walk. And also in downtown Gouda. Just away from the festivities so children wouldn't have to get in the middle of it. Which sadly still happened.

Green is the protest location of course, red is the end of the Sinterklaas parade where the stage was.

 

[Prophet Steve]

It's a ten minutes walk. And also in downtown Gouda. Just away from the festivities so children wouldn't have to get in the middle of it. Which sadly still happened.

Green is the protest location of course, red is the end of the Sinterklaas parade where the stage was.

Actually that was the spot for pro-Pieten I think. The anti-pieten was to the left of it I think. But both were the same length away from the parade.

 

[kamorra]

WHO ARE YOU ARGUING WITH? You agree Zwarte Piet is racist and you are wrong about the rest of the world agreeing it's racist.

All caps now? lol, ok you won Mr. World.

 

[S¡mon]

Some people here see black slaves, which they say is racist. I, however, see nice people who give out free candy and gifts.

I understand that some people might think it's racist, but really, one could argue that it is more troubling that kids grow up with the idea that white or yellow Petes are 'good and friendly' while black Petes are a 'no-no'.

 

[MedIC86]

Funny thing is, a lot of people on the ABC islands dont view it as racism either....Also what keeps me thinking, why is this suddenly an issue, since this person at the UN made a statement about it? Before that there was never discussion about this here.

 

[Malyse]

As a citizen of holland im really getting sick of the discussion, there are way worse things in the world to care about. Besides they can and never will ban sinterklaar or zwartepiet, simply because they cant do it. I would really like to see them try arresting all kids dressed up like him. So in the end, the people will have to change, but that is going to take a long time, since some people (a lot) view it as a cultural thing that has nothing to do with racism.

There are worse things in the world is a logical fallacy.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_relative_privation

 

[Linius]

Actually that was the spot for pro-Pieten I think. The anti-pieten was to the left of it I think. But both were the same length away from the parade.

Oh yeah, you're right. Misread that. But indeed, it's the same idea. It's not like they were placed a couple of kilometer outside of town or something.

 

[methane47]

It's a ten minutes walk. And also in downtown Gouda. Just away from the festivities so children wouldn't have to get in the middle of it. Which sadly still happened.

Green is the protest location of course, red is the end of the Sinterklaas parade where the stage was.

Thanks lol

200-300m away around corners and over a river
So for all intents and purposes, No where near.

And the parade came from the opposite direction

This is the most hilarious thing ever

 

[Raven Prime]

I don't know how often I'll have to repeat this, so I'll just link it:

http://www.ad.nl/ad/nl/1012/Nederland/article/detail/3790473/2014/11/14/Kick-Out-Zwarte-Piet-Kom-protesteren-bij-intocht-Gouda.dhtml

Last paragraph:

"Mayor Milo Schoenmaker tells that there actually is space for protests in the city. "The anti-pieten get a spot at the "Huis van de Stad" behind the station, the pro-pieten at the Schouwburgplein. There they have a event, where they also paint children. It is not more than logical that during a children festival these two polarizing parties are separated from each other."

And before the protest started the protesters called for going to the festival anyway. I get that they need to protest and I get that there will be more exposure. But they have been given a very valid reason for not going there, and they did anyway. And exactly the thing that the local government was afraid of is what happened.

I see your point. The problem is that you don't seem to understand my point.
I'll try to break it down.

1. The Dutch constitution forbids racism.
2. The Sinterklaas celebration, and more precisely the figure of Zwarte Piet exposes children and adults alike to a racist colonial caricature.
3. The Dutch government and justicial system has failed to neutralize the racist elements of this celebration.
4. Many people are aware of the racist caricature and others are confronted with it's effects on a yearly basis, even more so during the celebrations.

So the natural response to this is that societal justice must be brought by a civil movement.

I'll keep emphasizing that protesting the social injustice in the form of racist caricatures trumps the interests of those that hold a tradition dear that includes racist elements.
If the government protects a racist tradition, that tradition should be protested and instructions that try to protect that 'celebration' ignored.

 

[tbm24]

It could definitely be offensive to the black race, especially in the context of history, but racism is defined as a belief that one race is superior or inferior to another.

While I definitely cringe at this, I have a hard time classifying them all as racist when they are most likely just innocently following a tradition. Just as many Christians naively and innocently follow their traditions which are actually full of paganistic and dark themes.

Racism is such a heavy and hateful term that gets tossed around all to frequently in these discussions.

Well, I'm not sure what else to call the caricature that is Zwarte Piet(speaking only of appearance) other than a means to belittle the race it's based off of. I usually notice whenever the talk about racism comes about that many immediately go on the defensive as to not be labeled a racist. Ignoring that it's possible to do something that is inherently racist out of sheer ignorance. That doesn't make you a racist(imo).

The main problem that I find people in this discussion do not understand(or are seemingly unwilling to) is that(barring maybe 1-2 posters) what's being labeled as racist is the event/tradition itself for obvious reasons. Not that everyone who believes/partakes in it are racist(although no doubt there are many).

 

[MedIC86]

If the government protects a racist tradition, that tradition should be protested and instructions that try to protect that 'celebration' ignored.

Well if you read the between the lines of what our PM says, he simply doesnt care (just like a lot of people in NL, its mostly the media that blows it up), he says its tradition and seeing he is from a conservative-liberal party, well thats his thing. Whenever geert wilders goes out of line he usually condems it but this issue is something he doesnt want to get involved in to much.

 

[Prophet Steve]

I see your point. The problem is that you don't seem to understand my point.
I'll try to break it down.

1. The Dutch contitution forbids racism.
2. The Sinterklaas celebration, and more precisely the figure of Zwarte Piet exposes children and adults alike to a racist colonial caricature.
3. The Dutch government and justicial system has failed to neutralize the racist elements of this celebration.
4. Many people are aware of the racist caricature and others are confronted with it's effects on a yearly basis, even more so during the celebrations.

So the natural response to this is that societal justice must be brought by a civil movement.

I'll keep emphasizing that protesting the social injustice in the form of racist caricatures trumps the interests of those that hold a tradition dear that includes racist elements.
If the government protects a racist tradition, that tradition should be protested and instructions that try to protect that 'celebration' ignored.

I would agree with you if they weren't given the option to protest. But they were given the option, and it was the best option they could be given. There is a freedom of speech, but it can't get in the way of public security, so no matter how I see it, the protesters were wrong, even when the local government was too.

 

[Linius]

Thanks lol

200-300m away around corners and over a river
So for all intents and purposes, No where near.

And the parade came from the opposite direction

This is the most hilarious thing ever

Don't you think it's obvious the parade came from the other direction? That was the whole point of pointing out specific locations for protests. So adults would have their own space to exercise their right to protest without disturbing the order and scaring kids. Both pro and anti piet people got their protest spots a little bit away from the festivities for those reasons.

I'm really having a hard time understanding why people think it's weird to keep the protests away from kids. We're talking about kids ranging from a few months old to like maybe 10 years old and everything in between. You know beforehand that things can get ugly. The only sensible thing for local authorities to do in such a situation is make sure the kids are never at risk.

And still both protest locations are only ten minutes away by foot.

 

[S¡mon]

Honestly, people should also protest against Santa Claus and the Elfs. They way Elfs are portrayed is also pretty bad and I wouldn't be surprised if many 'smaller' people are offended by it.

 

[daviyoung]

Honestly, people should also protest against Santa Claus and the Elfs. They way Elfs are portrayed is also pretty bad and I wouldn't be surprised if many 'smaller' people are offended by it.

lol

 

[SmokyDave]

It isn't racist, it's racially insensitive. Learn the difference if you want to make change because racially insensitive people won't listen to you if you call them racists.

Sometimes think I'm the only person that knows the difference. Thanks for proving me wrong.

 

[tbm24]

Don't you think it's obvious the parade came from the other direction? That was the whole point of pointing out specific locations for protests. So adults would have their own space to exercise their right to protest without disturbing the order and scaring kids. Both pro and anti piet people got their protest spots a little bit away from the festivities for those reasons.

I'm really having a hard time understanding why people think it's weird to keep the protests away from kids. We're talking about kids ranging from a few months old to like maybe 10 years old and everything in between. You know beforehand that things can get ugly. The only sensible thing for local authorities to do in such a situation is make sure the kids are never at risk.

And still both protest locations are only ten minutes away by foot.

I don't think it's hard to understand. These protesters are protesting an issue of race/representation that is negative. So what sense does it make to protest away from the event they are actively trying to protest? Further, what sense does it make to fight for their cause while also allowing the festivity to go along without incident which only serves to exacerbate the issue itself?

While kids shouldn't be exposed to the BS brought onto them but the adults and their forefathers, that's the way it is. They aren't living in a bubble and if only a handful of kids and their families are given cause to question what they were just celebrating then that can be considered progress, or so I would like to think.

 

[Zamorro]

Don't you think it's obvious the parade came from the other direction? That was the whole point of pointing out specific locations for protests. So adults would have their own space to exercise their right to protest without disturbing the order and scaring kids. Both pro and anti piet people got their protest spots a little bit away from the festivities for those reasons.

I'm really having a hard time understanding why people think it's weird to keep the protests away from kids. We're talking about kids ranging from a few months old to like maybe 10 years old and everything in between. You know beforehand that things can get ugly. The only sensible thing for local authorities to do in such a situation is make sure the kids are never at risk.

And still both protest locations are only ten minutes away by foot.

They could have just moved the pro piet demonstration away, because they have no legitimate reason for protest. Protesting against protesters should not be honored with the same consideration IMHO. That "protest" was just designed to frustrate the real protest.

 

[Bodacious]

I am hesitant about the yellow version.

Yellow Pete = Asian I guess? Wow that's some "compromise." More like a double-down.

(Sorry if already discussed)

 

[methane47]

Don't you think it's obvious the parade came from the other direction? That was the whole point of pointing out specific locations for protests. So adults would have their own space to exercise their right to protest without disturbing the order and scaring kids. Both pro and anti piet people got their protest spots a little bit away from the festivities for those reasons.

I'm really having a hard time understanding why people think it's weird to keep the protests away from kids. We're talking about kids ranging from a few months old to like maybe 10 years old and everything in between. You know beforehand that things can get ugly. The only sensible thing for local authorities to do in such a situation is make sure the kids are never at risk.

And still both protest locations are only ten minutes away by foot.

Having the protest so far away is basically the same as not having a protest at all.

Think of protesting in the say way as you would "Cheering"
Where do you think would be the best place to cheer for a parade? Would it be, 3 blocks down the street around a corner, where you can't even hear the parade?

Protest is basically "Anti" cheering. And in order to be effective, it should be nearby... i can't even believe i'm explaining this.

 

[Prophet Steve]

I don't think it's hard to understand. These protesters are protesting an issue of race/representation that is negative. So what sense does it make to protest away from the event they are actively trying to protest? Further, what sense does it make to fight for their cause while also allowing the festivity to go along without incident which only serves to exacerbate the issue itself?

While kids shouldn't be exposed to the BS brought onto them but the adults and their forefathers, that's the way it is. They aren't living in a bubble and if only a handful of kids and their families are given cause to question what they were just celebrating then that can be considered progress, or so I would like to think.

Having the protest so far away is basically the same as not having a protest at all.

Think of protesting in the say way as you would "Cheering"
Where do you think would be the best place to cheer for a parade? Would it be, 3 blocks down the street around a corner, where you can't even hear the parade?

Protest is basically "Anti" cheering. And in order to be effective, it should be nearby... i can't even believe i'm explaining this.

Because there was a high potential of escalation around children, like exactly what happened.

They could have just moved the pro piet demonstration away, because they have no legitimate reason for protest. Protesting against protesters should not be honored with the same consideration IMHO. That "protest" was just designed to frustrate the real protest.

Actually the pro pieten weren't allowed to protest near the parade either. I am not sure what happened but apparently there were supporters there anyway, just not an entire protest group. Also, I don't think it is fair to say that one group does have the right to protest, while another group doesn't even when you don't agree with their cause.

 

[Ruud_Luiten]

There where pieten in all colors. Being piet is a positive thing. Most 'outsiders' tend to forget that. All kids love Piet and they don't see any racism. Plus, sinterklaas is known for a loooong time in the Netherlands. It's a fairytail. You just cannot kill zwarte piet because some older people see rasicm. This will destroy thousands and thousands of children dreams .
This takes years to change and it will change, just stop crying.

It will change!

 

[perkyz]

Yellow Pete = Asian I guess? Wow that's some "compromise." More like a double-down.

(Sorry if already discussed)

No, completely wrong. Instead of only 'black' petes, they also have petes of yellow, pink, blue, whatever colour.... just so people don't associate the coloured faces of the petes with any colours of races...

 

[Yaboosh]

 

[Linius]

The fact that you guys still defend that the protest should have been at the festivities location even after we know the outcome surprises me. It actually got out of hand. Kids actually got yelled at by adults. Kids actually were scared by adults expressing their opinion on the matter in a not so silent and kind way. And still you guys try to convince me we should just protest at a cheerful event with kids present. We're never going to agree on this one.

If you can't see the special circumstances for this certain issue there's really nothing I can say about it.

 

[tbm24]

Because there was a high potential of escalation around children, like exactly what happened.

All that says to me is the protestors themselves have more than enough reason to do what they did. It shouldn't have escalated and unless there's evidence of the protesting group resorting to violence, then the fact that it escalated highlights the problem more than the protest itself could have.

 

[methane47]

Because there was a high potential of escalation around children, like exactly what happened.

Did something actually happen to the children? were they threatened or something?
Or is the escalation you speak of, the fact that the protesters were arrested.

If the protesters were not arrested, would the children have been scared?
I highly doubt people were screaming at "kids" specifically instead of just yelling that zwarte Piet is racist.

The kids were never in any kind of danger. And maybe it IS better that the kids saw the people get arrested. So that the kids can then ask their parents .. "Why"

Hopefully some of those parents would be truthful and explain to their kids that people feel zwarte piet is offensive and why.

 

[Undubbed]

So I couldn't help but notice that not a single person in favor has answered the critical question of why big red lips and an afro exists on these costumes.

Maybe it's cause a lot of them are banned now, but come on they've had plenty of time to retort. Not counting the sarcastic ones, of course.

Seriously, who supports Zwarte Piet 'tradition' and has a counter for this?

 

[methane47]

So I couldn't help but notice that not a single person in favor has answered the critical question of why big red lips and an afro exists on these costumes.

Maybe it's cause a lot of them are banned now, but come on they've had plenty of time to retort. Not counting the sarcastic ones, of course.

Seriously, who supports Zwarte Piet 'tradition' and has a counter for this?

Think of the children.

 

[tbm24]

No, completely wrong. Instead of only 'black' petes, they also have petes of yellow, pink, blue, whatever colour.... just so people don't associate the coloured faces of the petes with any colours of races...

Someone posted images of the other colored piets. Interestingly enough I noticed they lacked the exaggerated red lips. Given it was an image of a yellow and blue and I don't know if others infact did it, I think that says enough about how simply adding more colors doesn't change much in regards to what the main issue is.

 

[Prophet Steve]

All that says to me is the protestors themselves have more than enough reason to do what they did. It shouldn't have escalated and unless there's evidence of the protesting group resorting to violence, then the fact that it escalated highlights the problem more than the protest itself could have.

You'd need some very very good reason to endanger kids.

This wasn't good enough of a reason.

Sorry, protesting is very important, but do not bring escalations near children. It was known that there was a group with an opposing view and it was said that that was the entire reason that they were not allowed to protest there.

It was an irresponsible thing to do. I don't see how that they had opposition is proof that it was good what they did. We know they had opposition already, the group announced their presence too. You don't need this to proof it.

Did something actually happen to the children? were they threatened or something?
Or is the escalation you speak of, the fact that the protesters were arrested.

If the protesters were not arrested, would the children have been scared?
I highly doubt people were screaming at "kids" specifically instead of just yelling that zwarte Piet is racist.

The kids were never in any kind of danger. And maybe it IS better that the kids saw the people get arrested. So that the kids can then ask their parents .. "Why"

Hopefully some of those parents would be truthful and explain to their kids that people feel zwarte piet is offensive and why.

There you go:

Yes
"En er werd van alles naar mijn zoontje geschreeuwd"
http://www.metronieuws.nl/nieuws/du...interklaasintocht-gouda/SrZnko!w70aOjWec5N9k/

You have police officers trying to separate protesters. Fists in the air. Officers forcing themselves through the crowd. "They yelled all sorts of things at my kid"

It is not a child-friendly environment, and for kids it is a festive activity that is ruined by things like this.

Think of the children.

I am not saying nothing should be done against the tradition because we need to think of the children. I am not being overprotective.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

You'd need some very very good reason to endanger kids.

This wasn't good enough of a reason.

Sorry, protesting is very important, but do not bring escalations near children. It was known that there was a group with an opposing view and it was said that that was the entire reason that they were not allowed to protest there.

It was an irresponsible thing to do. I don't see how that they had opposition is proof that it was good what they did. We know they had opposition already, the group announced their presence too. You don't need this to proof it.

So then it'd be best for future celebrations to use blue colored skin for that holiday and stop using black colored skin with red lips and afro/curly hair. For the children......

...right?

 

[tbm24]

You'd need some very very good reason to endanger kids.

This wasn't good enough of a reason.

Sorry, protesting is very important, but do not bring escalations near children. It was known that there was a group with an opposing view and it was said that that was the entire reason that they were not allowed to protest there.

It was an irresponsible thing to do. I don't see how that they had opposition is proof that it was good what they did. We know they had opposition already, the group announced their presence too. You don't need this to proof it.

I'd find it interesting if the protester's goals were to try and prove its a problem. Based on everything I've read in this thread thus far and the links in the OP, I viewed it as a means to highlight that it's actually important and people should care about it rather than know some people are bothered by it and write it off.

As far as children go, it's unfortunate that they were caught in the crossfire of this whole thing but then again this is about a tradition that many have asserted is a childhood tradition. It's rather inevitable I think(I should that, this does not even remotely mean anything violent).

 

[Ruud_Luiten]

Someone posted images of the other colored piets. Interestingly enough I noticed they lacked the exaggerated red lips. Given it was an image of a yellow and blue and I don't know if others infact did it, I think that says enough about how simply adding more colors doesn't change much in regards to what the main issue is.

Zwarte piet 2010 and later doen't have the red lips. These are gone for years...

 

[tbm24]

Zwarte piet 2010 and later doen't have the red lips. These are gone for years...

Only working with the images provided throughout the thread and what I could find in google mate, excuse my comment then.

 

[daviyoung]

Zwarte piet 2010 and later doen't have the red lips. These are gone for years...

Did you not see the photos in the first post?

 

[Bricky]

They could have just moved the pro piet demonstration away, because they have no legitimate reason for protest. Protesting against protesters should not be honored with the same consideration IMHO. That "protest" was just designed to frustrate the real protest.

So you're against racism, but discrimination is totally okay? Anyone should be able to protest and treated equally in that regard. It's not the goverments job to decide who can and can't protest just because you assume one side doesn't have a good reason (no matter if that's true or not). I think the pro-Zwarte Piet protesters where irrational wackos for the most part but everyone is equally allowed to voice their opinion in a free society.

In any case, both groups weren't where they were allowed to protest so protesters from both were rightfully arrested.

 

[Prophet Steve]

So then it'd be best for future celebrations to use blue colored skin for that holiday and stop using black colored skin with red lips and afro/curly hair. For the children......

...right?

Maybe, I never said I have anything against changing the tradition. However, you also have a lot of idiots that feel the need to have the pieten be black and then you might still have the problem next year. I think the change needs to come through public perception and not through local governments.

I'd find it interesting if the protester's goals were to try and prove its a problem. Based on everything I've read in this thread thus far and the links in the OP, I viewed it as a means to highlight that it's actually important and people should care about it rather than know some people are bothered by it and write it off.

As far as children go, it's unfortunate that they were caught in the crossfire of this whole thing but then again this is about a tradition that many have asserted is a childhood tradition. It's rather inevitable I think(I should that, this does not even remotely mean anything violent).

Yes, that is what protesting is for. They got a place to protest, they achieve exactly the same goal there but with less exposure. The simple thing is that they couldn't be given more exposure without compromising on public security.

This is a problem that is being highlighted in The Netherlands even without these arrests. It is just that many people don't care to change it.

Zwarte piet 2010 and later doen't have the red lips. These are gone for years...

Only working with the images provided throughout the thread and what I could find in google mate, excuse my comment then.

I am a few years past celebrating Sinterklaas and had no clue red lips weren't used anymore either.

 

[Kinyou]

As long as they weren't literally shoved out of sight I don't see a problem with convining protesters to a certain area. I mean, when they left that area and went face to face with the other people the situation did indeed escalate and protesters and anti-protesters had to be arrested.