Lol did you go and personally ask every black person how they feel?
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Dutch Court : "Black Pete" (Zwarte Piet ) Is A Negative Stereotype
- Thread starter Slayven
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Lol did you go and personally ask every black person how they feel?
Of course not. You're missing the point. There are always people offended, gaming is a good example. But the imagery is in my opinion not racist. What's racist about an afro for god's sake? Even our footballers/football fans wear it.
You're not wrong but the people defending zwarte piet don't see it this way. They want their children to have the same childhood experiences they had and that includes Sinterklaas and Zwarte Piet which they only have fond memories of. This is why people get so defensive when it comes to talking about changing it because they think it would make Sinterklaas not exist anymore which is obviously false. You'd see the same reaction if for example the Santa's elfs were a racial stereotype.
I see no reason why it shouldn't be changed though. As you said kids wouldn't care anyway and it'd probably make it so that the holiday will actually be able to keep on going for many years longer. The people thinking they're defending it from disappearing like this are obviously wrong but you're most likely not going to convince them of this.
It's a mockery of how black people look. It doesn't matter how deep in tradition it is, it's imagery is racist and a negative stereotype.
Wow, so because he's "smart" his stereotypical traits shouldn't be frowned upon? Come on dude. How can you not see what's wrong with the image.
Tradition does not make everything okay. A lot of times tradition needs to be adjusted or even let go of. Society changes, and people can now recognize this image is offensive.
Where are people getting from that Zwarte Piet is smart? They're generally portrayed as slightly dumb, clumsy assistants. When I was growing up they were also abducting kids to Spain.
Earthpainting
Member
The difference between slave and assistant is sadly enough only a semantic one when it comes to such historically loaded imagery. I know a lot of Dutch and Belgian people don't see the link between black people and Zwarte Piet, which is where a lot of the blindness to the issue comes from.
My father and grandparents are Congolese, and were outsiders to the whole thing, so when they moved to this side of the world they were pretty shocked to the whole tradition. Our household didn't partake in the celebrations when I was younger as a result, though they eventually opened up to it when my siblings came along years later. It's hard to blame their initial reaction since they were already very familiar with almost identical depictions of black people.
I don't think culture will lose a lot if we slowly phase out and alter some of the iffier elements. It's mainly intended for children, and they won't care if Piet has bright red lips, has a particular hairstyle or a fully darkened face. I'd even argue that the latter will be the easiest to change, and it's definitely the most questionable part of the design. Children already know about the soot story. Make it look more like actual soot stains. Pieten also have a smurf-esque jobs and personalities, so I'm sure they can find lots of ways and reasons to splotch all sorts of colours onto faces.
JordanN
Banned
Zwarte looks like crap. Doesn't matter if it wasn't intended to be racist, it's the 21st century and the world is so much more globalized now, you should understand the feelings of others.
The changes don't even have to be drastic. Just ditch the red makeup, excessive black skin and curly hair.
The changes don't even have to be drastic. Just ditch the red makeup, excessive black skin and curly hair.
Do you know what blackface is?
Isn't the afro and bright red lips relevantly new addition?
kurisu1974
Banned
Is society as a whole maybe becoming a tad over-sensitive? Has this been discussed ever in the last decade? Redskins, Zwarte Piet, Mr. Popo... admittedly I'm a white male, but to me it's a whole circus about super trivial stuff. Those people that complain, might they have another issue maybe?
Making Popo blue? That's offensive to the artist! And do we want all Tintin album's redrawn too?
I'm a very liberal, anti-racist guy for those that might get another idea. I just think freedom of expression and speech and art goes above offended individuals that rile up media and society.
Making Popo blue? That's offensive to the artist! And do we want all Tintin album's redrawn too?
I'm a very liberal, anti-racist guy for those that might get another idea. I just think freedom of expression and speech and art goes above offended individuals that rile up media and society.
Is society as a whole maybe becoming a tad over-sensitive? Has this been discussed ever in the last decade? Redskins, Zwarte Piet, Mr. Popo... admittedly I'm a white male, but to me it's a whole circus about super trivial stuff. Those people that complain, might they have another issue maybe?
Making Popo blue? That's offensive to the artist! And do we want all Tintin album's redrawn too?
I'm a very liberal, anti-racist guy for those that might get another idea. I just think freedom of expression and speech and art goes above offended individuals that rile up media and society.
Where is Tin Tin driving Zwarte Piet?
shacklesmcgee
Member
Is society as a whole maybe becoming a tad over-sensitive? Has this been discussed ever in the last decade? Redskins, Zwarte Piet, Mr. Popo... admittedly I'm a white male, but to me it's a whole circus about super trivial stuff. Those people that complain, might they have another issue maybe?
Making Popo blue? That's offensive to the artist! And do we want all Tintin album's redrawn too?
I'm a very liberal, anti-racist guy for those that might get another idea. I just think freedom of expression and speech and art goes above offended individuals that rile up media and society.
Do you think Zwarte Piet is racist, if Mr. Popo is not? Hell, you're not using that pic as an example of a "over-sensitive" image right?
Nope.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwarte_Piet
Shin Kojima
Banned
I don't really care if Zwarte Piet gets banned or not (I don't like clowns and that's what he is), but as a kid I never saw any relation between the character and actual black people. I grew up with two adopted black brothers and it never occurred to me that Piet may or may not have been based on a certain race. He was just a black painted clown and I knew from experience that's not what actual black people looked like.
Of course this was before I knew anything about the Blackface character but just saying.
I was however offended by stuff like that Tintin pic above me as I understood that's how the artist tried to portray actual black people.
Of course this was before I knew anything about the Blackface character but just saying.
I was however offended by stuff like that Tintin pic above me as I understood that's how the artist tried to portray actual black people.
But we allready changed it many times before. Even traditions evolve. The whole soot-thing is a way the tradition changed to accomodate modern views. Zwarte piet was a dumb slave once, who ATE naughty children. Later he beated them. Now he puts them in his sack.
Dag Sinterklaas by Bart Peeters and hugo mathyssen was a revisionist telling if Sinterklaas and formed how our generation sees the figure. But zwarte piet was completely different with our parents in the 50ies and sixties.
No need to get upset about changes. The heart of the tradition will remain, and Sinterklaas will not dissapear because of a change in imagery.
Is society as a whole maybe becoming a tad over-sensitive? Has this been discussed ever in the last decade? Redskins, Zwarte Piet, Mr. Popo... admittedly I'm a white male, but to me it's a whole circus about super trivial stuff. Those people that complain, might they have another issue maybe?
Making Popo blue? That's offensive to the artist! And do we want all Tintin album's redrawn too?
I'm a very liberal, anti-racist guy for those that might get another idea. I just think freedom of expression and speech and art goes above offended individuals that rile up media and society.
Maybe it's trivial to you because your male whiteness has no history as a subject of mockery around the world and maybe you lack the ability you empathize with people who are not like you.
No, people are not oversensitive. We're trying to perfect ourselves. That's why each oppressed group that comes to the foreground in the ongoing worldwide civil rights debates tends to be smaller than the one before it - we're getting better with time, not worse.
You know who else has the right to express themselves? The oppressed, the offended, the marginalized.
Draw your racist art. Put on your blackface. Express yourselves, you racist, no empathy having motherfuckers. Just don't act shocked when someone else expresses a disagreement with your mockery.
kurisu1974
Banned
So why is all the outrage so recent?
I think both are artistic expressions, in the case of Tintin very much a product of its time. I also think it would harm more than benefit if for any reason these albums were cesnored like they tried to do in I think it was Sweden. I also think neither has an actual agenda. I don't really understand what you mean with you second remark.
JordanN
Banned
Hundreds of years ago, if you, as a black or native person said "I don't like all these joke characters you've white people have painted us under", chances are you would have been shot or hanged.
Before people could speak up, they had to be safe doing it. But it's only been 50 years since Civil Rights tried to achieve this.
It's not. It is just has gained more steam. More and more people are realising that maybe they were actually wrong. Maybe this stuff we do is harmful to others. Not to mention almost every european country has more immigrants now then ever before so obviously there is going to be more tension between cultures.
Is society as a whole maybe becoming a tad over-sensitive? Has this been discussed ever in the last decade? Redskins, Zwarte Piet, Mr. Popo... admittedly I'm a white male, but to me it's a whole circus about super trivial stuff. Those people that complain, might they have another issue maybe?
Making Popo blue? That's offensive to the artist! And do we want all Tintin album's redrawn too?
I'm a very liberal, anti-racist guy for those that might get another idea. I just think freedom of expression and speech and art goes above offended individuals that rile up media and society.
Hergé would have drawn it differently in 1983:
http://www.forbes.com/2007/07/23/tintin-congo-herge-cx_ll_0713autofacescan01.html
Nothing racist about this, right?:
kurisu1974
Banned
Hergé would have drawn it differently in 1983:
http://www.forbes.com/2007/07/23/tintin-congo-herge-cx_ll_0713autofacescan01.html
Nothing racist about this, right?:
So we ignore the fact that people lived with these prejudices and used them in art and entertainment? Let's retcon history and censor what we today don't like?
Censor we don't like. What do you mean, like how Disney and WB don't show racist caricatures that older cartoons were rife with?
JordanN
Banned
Censoring creates the opposite effect.
The warning card that shows up on the Tom and Jerry blu-ray.
Necromanti
Member
No, we learn from it and at least attempt to understand why denigrating racial imagery might be damaging and/or offensive to people regardless of its initial intent.
The difference is that Zwarte Piet is not something that is hidden in some comic, where you can choose not to look at it. Zwarte Piet is out in the open every december 5th.
Also, retconning history is different from censoring.
Retconning is pretending it didn't happen. Nobody would want that.
Tintin In Congo is still a fun comic, although some parts are offensive in today's eyes. And it is an important step in the development of Hergé as a comic artist.
But I wouldn't want the comic in the children's section of the library, which is censoring because it is intended for children.
I don't think people are suggesting that, or at least I hope they aren't. Art/entertainment is window to our history and I think it is important to preserve it.
That is the point, history is why people are offended.
This seems to be the main argument being brought up when discussing Zwarte Piet. There are factors people forget to consider however when discussing how and why Zwarte Piet for a long time was considered totally fine, but it actually never was.
Foreign families in the old days did not touch the subject, but there were discussion during family meetings, social gatherings and so on about how demeaning it felt. Its not too hard understand why they didnt openly discussed their displeasure, this because they were working class people. Often not making that much money, trying to get their kids through school and trying to keep a roof over their head. Adding racial political statements could either jeopardize their employment, the future of their children, and/or alienate their position within society. Its not uncommon to hear older foreigners say that they felt like second class citizens during that time, and that they just smile and accepted things they didnt agree with.
Its easy to say now that they should have stood up and made a firm stance on various racial issues, but those times were very different. Now the kids from that generation are growing up, their positions compares to their elders has considerably changed. They now are not afraid or held back by economic, social or other pressures. They can make political statements without being afraid. After years of foreigners not saying a peep, people are completely baffled by how and why just now they are just standing up. Is it that surprising? No, those issues have always been there and are now bubbling to the surface. What is surprising is though that people are surprised that foreigners are reacting so passionately, while anybody would half-a-brain could see it coming from far away.
The notion of it not being an issue years ago is baffling. Either you turned a blind eye to it or just didnt accept that people could have issues with Zwarte Piet. What makes it even more insulting is that strange justifications for everything surrounding the holiday, just to avoid discussing the racial undertones and the questionable history The Nederlands has had in slavery. He isnt black, he became black because of the root of the chimney he goes through., His lips are red, because of bleeding., Its just a kids holiday., Well, foreign families also celebrate this holiday they feel is racist! and If you do not like, you can leave. are just cringe worthy arguments that get brought up every year, but are just dodging the main issue or trying to stifle the discussion.
The kids holiday argument has always annoyed me the most. The holiday is fine in spirit, but why keep hold on the obviously antiquated racist stereotypes to add legitimacy to the holiday? The lack of respect for history is just insulting. Dont use kids to justify the way the holiday is presented, because you dont want to teach them how and why slaves were being used in history. Thinking up reasons to circumvent that becomes just even more insulting.
Most families do not want their children to be left out of major holidays, they want to play with their friends and get presents. Could you really deny your kid that fun? No parent could. Most foreign parents feel very uneasy about them celebrating the holiday. As the kids also grow older, they tend to avoid that holiday. Its still a big discussion when family and friends get together, but the hopelessness and the lack of understanding always brings the discussion to a screeching halt. A sad reminder that this might still be an issue for the next 20 years.
Neoriceisgood
Member
As a Dutch person I am totally okay with this ruling.
Tough.
Your childhood tradition was racist as hell.
It's not your fault. You were a kid, you didn't know any better.
Now you're older, and other people are trying to tell you, "actually that tradition is screwed up and uses pretty obvious racist imagery"; since you have nostalgia from when you were a child, though, you are reacting like a child who hears something obvious that he doesn't like - sticking your fingers in your ears and going "nanana I can't hear you."
Yeah doesn't mean you are racist for taking part.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
This is a fucking hilarious sentence.
"I'm really mad you people won't allow me my racist holiday for kids."
Thank you for this.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
Nobody is calling for censoring. They're just saying going forward we correct what we did wrong. Nobody is changing art or history or even the holiday just how he's presented. Is the blackface that important?
If you put on black face, red lips and an afro in a crude african stereotype you might not be racist but you're doing something racist.
This is weird as an American because its literally the SAME ARGUMENT for racist traditions over here that we had in years past (and still sometimes do).
AuthenticM
Member
Censoring creates the opposite effect.
The warning card that shows up on the Tom and Jerry blu-ray.
That's a good stance to take.
Yep I couldn't care less.
Sadly there will be also people who will blame the foreigners if Zwarte Piet ever gets banned.
s74rshaped
Member
As a foreigner living in Belgium I was and still am utterly disgusted by this 'tradition'. The quicker it goes away the better. Everybody I have talked to about it seems to think its ok and doesn't seem to understand the racist nature of it at all.
But Belgium has its fair share of racist people, says it all really.
But Belgium has its fair share of racist people, says it all really.
-Plasma Reus-
Service guarantees member status
Censoring creates the opposite effect.
The warning card that shows up on the Tom and Jerry blu-ray.
Wow that's amazing.
In my 38 years of living in Belgium, the thought never ever crossed my mind of Zwarte Piet being a racist figure. Not for a single second...
Until people who didn't know about it started making a big deal about it on the internet.
I still don't see how this whole thing is racist in the slightest.
These guys are never portrait in a negative manner at all, quite the opposite actually.
I've yet to see a single instance of this being linked to the blackface shit that people keep comparing it to. :-/
Feel free to attack me about how I feel, but just keep in mind that I'm not writing this to defend this tradition from people who feel personally degraded by it or anything of that nature.
It's just like the person at the top of the page already mentioned as well, I've never even seen a hint of this festival being linked to racism at all before the whole shitstorm a while ago.
I just hope that this whole political correctness movement that seems to be making it's way across the ocean doesn't end up in the cancelation of the Kanamara Matsuri festival somewhere down the line.
I really, really like this.
Until people who didn't know about it started making a big deal about it on the internet.
I still don't see how this whole thing is racist in the slightest.
These guys are never portrait in a negative manner at all, quite the opposite actually.
I've yet to see a single instance of this being linked to the blackface shit that people keep comparing it to. :-/
Feel free to attack me about how I feel, but just keep in mind that I'm not writing this to defend this tradition from people who feel personally degraded by it or anything of that nature.
It's just like the person at the top of the page already mentioned as well, I've never even seen a hint of this festival being linked to racism at all before the whole shitstorm a while ago.
I just hope that this whole political correctness movement that seems to be making it's way across the ocean doesn't end up in the cancelation of the Kanamara Matsuri festival somewhere down the line.
Censoring creates the opposite effect.
The warning card that shows up on the Tom and Jerry blu-ray.
I really, really like this.
Winterfang
Banned
And what about Baltasar?
He is not a caricature, he is just black.
GoldenEye 007
Member
Is this true? I mean, if so, is this not pretty damning?
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
For some reason, human beings don't like being portrayed as caricatures.
Roland1979
Junior Member
As a Dutch (Caucasian, but that should not matter) i am very pleased with the decision. They never had to completely remove it, just change it. Instead of "Black Pete", why not just "Pete"? When people talk about traditions they don't realize it's no longer a holiday for the children, but for them, their memories. Children adept very easy. We can absolutely keep the holiday, just the Pete has to change. The earrings, afro, evenly black painted face and red lips need to go. And he was absolutely, no doubt possible, born out of racism, or at least created when racism was the norm. Children just like all the bells and whistles, the mood, the music, the candy, the presents. If it's going to change then we should keep that, shed it in a positive light and not claim it, but let it stay a holiday for children. I'm afraid there will always be parties that do claim it for their political agenda (like Wilders), that's probably unavoidable.
TatteredHat
Member
I could have sworn we had this exact same topic less than a week ago.
Just ditch the red lips and afro. If Zwarte Piet is supposed to just be a soot covered person, make him actually look like one.
Just ditch the red lips and afro. If Zwarte Piet is supposed to just be a soot covered person, make him actually look like one.
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