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[Via Purifico]

This reminds me of that south park episode where the kids make a flag where it seems that a couple of white people are hanging a black dude and chef freaks out because it's racist. In the end he accepts the fact that kids really didn't associate their design with anything racial, it's simply 4 dudes hanging another dude. Do we really need to have this discussion ruining kid's joy of having this celebration.

Here's the episode btw: http://www.southparkstudios.com/full-episodes/s04e08-chef-goes-nanners

 

[Sec0nd]

Catering to everyone needs is just such a fucking stupid trend. If a small portion of the population is against or even 'worse' offended by something apparently EVERYONE needs to change to make sure their feelings aren't hurt. I can remember something similar in the US where everyone started calling Christmas the Holidays because otherwise people who weren't Christian would be offended? Who fucking cares. So stupid. I just hate how a insanely small but apparently loud minority can get their way.

Sorry for this rant but I'm getting so tired of all this outrage.

 

[Timedog]

This reminds me of that south park episode where the kids make a flag where it seems that a couple of white people are hanging a black dude and chef freaks out because it's racist. In the end he accepts the fact that kids really didn't associate their design with anything racial, it's simply 4 dudes hanging another dude. Do we really need to have this discussion ruining kid's joy of having this celebration.

Here's the episode btw: http://www.southparkstudios.com/full-episodes/s04e08-chef-goes-nanners

Changing it will in no way ruin kids' joy.

 

[itsgreen]

Changing it will in no way ruin kids' joy.

Why should we change tradition?

And spoiler alert on my response: blackface isn't a reason, that is a non issue here. And nobody who participates in Sinterklaas sees Zwarte Piet as a depiction of a black person. He is 'just Zwarte Piet'. They are two seperate things.

 

[Via Purifico]

Changing it will in no way ruin kids' joy.

No but giving media attention to the racial thing does ruin it for kids though, it's not like they are immune to the discussion.

 

[way more]

Catering to everyone needs is just such a fucking stupid trend. If a small portion of the population is against or even 'worse' offended by something apparently EVERYONE needs to change to make sure their feelings aren't hurt. I can remember something similar in the US where everyone started calling Christmas the Holidays because otherwise people who weren't Christian would be offended? Who fucking cares. So stupid. I just hate how a insanely small but apparently loud minority can get their way.

Sorry for this rant but I'm getting so tired of all this outrage.

Of all the fictional wars the Right pretends are directed towards them, The War on Christmas is my favorite. It's also best not to refer to it as an example when trying to defend something.

 

[Big Baybee]

No one has yet to explain to me why the dude can't look like a guy whose gone through a chimney instead of an African caricature.

 

[Deleted member 1235]

Catering to everyone needs is just such a fucking stupid trend. If a small portion of the population is against or even 'worse' offended by something apparently EVERYONE needs to change to make sure their feelings aren't hurt. I can remember something similar in the US where everyone started calling Christmas the Holidays because otherwise people who weren't Christian would be offended? Who fucking cares. So stupid. I just hate how a insanely small but apparently loud minority can get their way.

Sorry for this rant but I'm getting so tired of all this outrage.

get used to it and see you next year. thread always runs the same, a lot of americans think that dutch people think and see blackface the same way they do and do it anyway because they are racist. Dutch people continue to not notice the outrage and appear puzzled by it. Gaf discusses. America tells everyone that we should all treat black people as well as they do and life continues pretty much as normal.

as an expat that's lived in NL for 8 years, the tradition was at first jarring, it seems harmless, I don't care about it and it doesn't have that racist feel to it. NL doesn't feel particularly racist in general, no more or less than other places I'd say.

 

[Metrotab]

No one has yet to explain to me why the dude can't look like a guy whose gone through a chimney instead of an African caricature.

Because there's no political momentum whatsoever? Like I said, general discourse on Zwarte Piet doesn't consider the current 'look' problematic. Hence no one bothers to change it or think of changing it.

It's simply accepted.

 

[OfWhiteSkinOnRedLeather]

Why should we change tradition?

The answer is simple; you shouldn't.

 

[Big Baybee]

Because there's no political momentum whatsoever? Like I said, general discourse on Zwarte Piet doesn't consider the current 'look' problematic. Hence no one bothers to change it or think of changing it.

It's simply accepted.

It's not only accepted but actively defended. At least you understand that the image is very racial. People pop into this thread and refuse to admit even that much. I'd like an honest discourse, but when you have people outright denying the obvious racial undertones and history behind the imagery then what can you do?

 

[KanyeEast]

The answer is simple; you shouldn't.

You could update it. The same people who are defending zwarte piet are againt islam. The argument is that islam is old and backwards. But when it is zwarte piet it's "tradition". I cannot take that shit serious.

 

[Caayn]

You could update it. The same people who are defending zwarte piet are againt islam. The argument is that islam is old and backwards. But when it is zwarte piet it's "tradition". I cannot take that shit serious.

Sure some people who are defending it are against the Islam, if you go via that route you can take down every argument... but but but people who support X are also doing Y. It's a pretty big accusation to say "same people who are defending zwarte piet are againt islam". Even our prime minister(including other politicians) and many celebrities are against changing the tradition of Sinterklaas. People who defend it aren't necessarily against the Islam.

 

[Chuckie]

The Washington Redskins just say that their mascot has a bad sunburn, problem solved!


Edit: I'm sorry but I'm just blown away by this:

"saying it is soot not skincolour, removing the golden earrings, making him smart instead of stupid, removing his accent"

Yup not racist at all...

Well apparently you did not read all my other posts were I stated Zwarte Piet clearly had racist origins. They started removing racial stereotypes in the 80-ies but the process is obviously not finished.

So you're saying 'yup not racist at all' to someone who stated it had racist roots in his first post

 

[xbhaskarx]

Well apparently you did not read all my other posts were I stated Zwarte Piet clearly had racist origins. They started removing racial stereotypes in the 80-ies but the process is obviously not finished.

So you're saying 'yup not racist at all' to someone who stated it had racist roots in his first post

Right, I'm saying that if something has racist origins, you can't just find new non-racial explanations for things while it remains fundamentally the same, and then declare that it's no longer racist.

That would be like if the Washington Redskins kept their name and logo, but said that it wasn't a Native American, it represents a man of unidentified race who happens to put feathers in his hair and just got really badly sunburned.

 

[Arjen]

You could update it. The same people who are defending zwarte piet are againt islam. The argument is that islam is old and backwards. But when it is zwarte piet it's "tradition". I cannot take that shit serious.

I'm sorry, what???

 

[Chuckie]

Right, I'm saying that if something has racist origins, you can't just find new non-racial explanations for things while it remains fundamentally the same, and then declare that it's no longer racist.

That would be like if the Washington Redskins kept their name and logo, but said that it wasn't a Native American, it represents a man of unidentified race who happens to put feathers in his hair and just got really badly sunburned.

Redskin is a slur for a Native American, Zwarte Piet is not a slur for a Moor though. Piet is like the most Dutch name you could imagine. If he was called Negro Pete, I'd agree with you.
If you take away the racial elements, make his face clearly black from soot, it simply is a guy who went through the chimney. And like I said before, the make-up has to change, otherwise the soot argument does not make sense.

 

[HovaHovito]

Black face is prob the most racist thing Someone can do. Its the equivalent of stretching your skin to mock asians

 

[Supermanisdead]

These threads are always fucking tiring, so I'm gonna keep this brief.

Zwarte Piet is a racist caricature.

Defend it if you want because of tradition or whatever, but don't fucking lie to yourself. You just look ridiculous.

exactly. the amount of hoop-jumping and deflecting in these threads is always absurd.

"you're the racist if you think he looks black!"

"he's covered in soot!"

"we don't have the same hangups as you racist-ass americans!"

arghhhhhhhh

 

[Metrotab]

You could update it. The same people who are defending zwarte piet are againt islam. The argument is that islam is old and backwards. But when it is zwarte piet it's "tradition". I cannot take that shit serious.

The entire political spectrum defends Zwarte Piet, including the left wing.

 

[itsgreen]

Article of Rob Wijnberg on De Correspondent pretty much nails it: https://decorrespondent.nl/233/wat-we-niet-zien/5971790-4cb6c638

Dat Gario pleit voor meer empathie voor mensen die moeite hebben met Zwarte Piet als fenomeen, vind ik alleszins sympathiek. Jammer alleen dat hij die empathie andersom niet lijkt te kunnen opbrengen: mensen van het ‘andere soort’, uit naam van ‘jouw soort’ racisme aanwrijven die ze op geen enkele manier etaleren, enkel omdat ze een traditie vieren, is evengoed belachelijk. Vind je het gek dat zoveel mensen dan als door een bij gestoken reageren? En ‘moe’ van 'die discussie' worden? Dat VN-onderzoeker Verene Sheperd 'niet kan begrijpen waarom Nederlanders niet inzien dat het Sinterklaasfeest een terugkeer naar de slavernij is en dat dit feest in de eenentwintigste eeuw moet stoppen,' is om dezelfde reden al even bizar. Ze zou er juist verguld mee moeten zijn: dat wij dat niet zien.

Part of his conclusion: the people who are complaining should be glad that the other people don't see it as racism: because they don't view Zwarte Piet as a different race.

 

[ElbowRocket]

Keep your fucking hands off of our traditions, you ill-informed douchebags.

I agree

 

[Vitten]

I was always told that the Zwarte Piets are black not because it's a blackface impersonation but because of the soot from climbing down the chimneys to bring children their presents..

I guess Santa is a racist to then towards people with a height disadvantage cos he uses midgets as his slave helpers.. the bastard !

anyway, the traditon is old as fuck and nobody ever gave a shit until the recent wave of pc hypersensitivity. If it makes people happy, we'll give them normal coloured lips..

 

[Nyx]

A petition on Facebook to keep Zwarte Piet as he is now, got more than 500.000 likes within 24 hours

Bunch of racist fucks, lol.

 

[Air Zombie Meat]

I can see both sides of the argument but I'm sorry, the soot stuff is ridiculous.

 

[itsgreen]

A petition on Facebook to keep Zwarte Piet as he is now, got more than 500.000 likes within 24 hours

Bunch of racist fucks, lol.

Who are the racists?

People who judge Zwarte Piet on the basis of his skin color and looks, or the people who don't.

 

[Nyx]

Who are the racists?

People who judge Zwarte Piet on the basis of his skin color and looks, or the people who don't.

I was sarcastic. ;-)

 

[itsgreen]

I was sarcastic. ;-)

Well you never know There are people on these boards who can't comprehend that their culture and background isn't universally shared.

 

[Chuckie]

A petition on Facebook to keep Zwarte Piet as he is now, got more than 500.000 likes within 24 hours

Bunch of racist fucks, lol.

That petition is against the wish of the UN to abolish the Sinterklaas celebration, not necessarily to keep Piet exactly as it is.

I can see both sides of the argument but I'm sorry, the soot stuff is ridiculous.

The soot is a modern twist because parents and government want to take out the racial element (without losing the traditional black color). Kids grow up believing it is soot, however one would think an adult knows better.
That's why I have been suggesting using actual soot (ie clearly smudges of black instead of whole black skin)

But it seems I am caught in between two groups, one crying "Racist! Abolish it!" and "It's not racist at all, fuck off and leave the tradition alone"

It makes this discussion nearly impossible. Not only in the Netherlands itself, but on GAF too as has been proven year after year.

So I guess I've made my opinion clear and I am bailing out.

 

[Dali]

The answer is simple; you shouldn't.

personally I wouldn't be particularly proud of a tradition that many find offensive. So that's a good reason to change it. I guess if you're not interested in exporting your culture and making your traditions known worldwide then they can ignore the connotation. Of course at the same time they'll have to accept the way it makes them look backward and insensitive.

 

[ThisWreckage]

Americans need to quit expecting the rest of the world to share their outrage when the U.S. has had an extremely shitty history with slavery, fucking over the Native Americans, and warmongering (among other things). This is coming from an American. Criticizing another country's culture is the LAST thing we should ever do.

 

[Cartman86]

This reminds me of that south park episode where the kids make a flag where it seems that a couple of white people are hanging a black dude and chef freaks out because it's racist. In the end he accepts the fact that kids really didn't associate their design with anything racial, it's simply 4 dudes hanging another dude. Do we really need to have this discussion ruining kid's joy of having this celebration.

Here's the episode btw: http://www.southparkstudios.com/full-episodes/s04e08-chef-goes-nanners

Bleh South Park has gotten this wrong multiple times (the "fag" episode being another) Intent is mostly irrelevant with racism. It certainly helps with determining whether the person is an ass hole, but making them aware of the reasons why it's offensive and their subsequent reaction to that will tell you all you need to know along those lines.

Americans need to quit expecting the rest of the world to share their outrage when the U.S. has had an extremely shitty history with slavery, fucking over the Native Americans, and warmongering (among other things). This is coming from an American. Criticizing another country's culture is the LAST thing we should ever do.

You can't hide behind culture when it comes to this shit. I'm not going to with the problems America has and i'm not with other countries.

 

[Nyx]

That petition is against the wish of the UN to abolish the Sinterklaas celebration, not necessarily to keep Piet exactly as it is.

The first thing I read there was about Piet!

 

[Air Zombie Meat]

The soot is a modern twist because parents and government want to take out the racial element (without losing the traditional black color). Kids grow up believing it is soot, however one would think an adult knows better.
That's why I have been suggesting using actual soot (ie clearly smudges of black instead of whole black skin)

But it seems I am caught in between two groups, one crying "Racist! Abolish it!" and "It's not racist at all, fuck off and leave the tradition alone"

It makes this discussion nearly impossible. Not only in the Netherlands itself, but on GAF too as has been proven year after year.

So I guess I've made my opinion clear and I am bailing out.

I get that it's an attempt at a compromise but it's so transparent that it's amusing. But yeah, I guess it makes more sense if the explanation is aimed at kids more than anything else. Anyway you've been one of the reasonable voices in this thread, the effort is appreciated.

 

[HovaHovito]

Americans need to quit expecting the rest of the world to share their outrage when the U.S. has had an extremely shitty history with slavery, fucking over the Native Americans, and warmongering (among other things). This is coming from an American. Criticizing another country's culture is the LAST thing we should ever do.

Wut
If something is insensitive and racist what does the US history have to do withanything
Does that make this acceptable? When the KKK marched through skokie it was insensitive. I dont care if its their tradition

 

[ThisWreckage]

You can't hide behind culture when it comes to this shit. I'm not going to with the problems America has and i'm not with other countries.

We don't get to act indignant and try to play the role of cultural police when our country is home to the Tea Party that makes Obama out to be a secret Muslim/Antichrist, a criminal justice system that incarcerates blacks at a ridiculous rate, and has states where the confederate flag is commonly seen. We have no right. Racism is what the U.S. was founded on and it's what continues to thrive. But if you all want to continue to deride a holiday that a very small minority of people actually have an issue with then go right ahead. The atrocities that were committed here and continue to be committed does not give us carte blanche to say that another country's holiday needs to be disposed over when they don't share the same history we have. Seriously, get over it.

 

[-MB-]

I can see both sides of the argument but I'm sorry, the soot stuff is ridiculous.

To adults it obviously sounds ridiculous, but then again, adults also know it's all a show for kids anyway, and don't believe Sinterklaas and zwarte pieten are real.
Also kids blindly accept the soot excuse, because they aren't old enough to see the ridiculousness behind the concept.

 

[HovaHovito]

We don't get to act indignant and try to play the role of cultural police when our country is home to the Tea Party that makes Obama out to be a secret Muslim/Antichrist, a criminal justice system that incarcerates blacks at a ridiculous rate, and has states where the confederate flag is commonly seen. We have no right. Racism is what the U.S. was founded on and it's what continues to thrive. But if you all want to continue to deride a holiday that a very small minority of people actually have an issue with then go right ahead. The atrocities that were committed here and continue to be committed does not give us carte blanche to say that another country's holiday needs to be disposed over when they don't share the same history we have. Seriously, get over it.

Lel, so no american can say anything because we have some insensitive outspoken citizens? Youre acting like one is being excused and the other isnt

 

[Chuckie]

The first thing I read there was about Piet!

Then you read wrong. It is an initiative against the abolishment of the celebration.

‘Jazeker. Mijn collega Kevin en ik zaten vanmiddag op kantoor toen we hoorden dat het Sinterklaasfeest misschien moet stoppen. Hoe kun je zo’n prachtige traditie, zo’n mooi cultuurfeest, zomaar de nek omdraaien?

It was a direct reaction to the news about the UN. Their banner even says so.

I get that it's an attempt at a compromise but it's so transparent that it's amusing. But yeah, I guess it makes more sense if the explanation is aimed at kids more than anything else. Anyway you've been one of the reasonable voices in this thread, the effort is appreciated.

Thanks.

 

[itsgreen]

Wut
If something is insensitive and racist what does the US history have to do withanything
Does that make this acceptable? When the KKK marched through skokie it was insensitive. I dont care if its their tradition

When you look at things you interpret it because of your background.

You can't reasonably expect people to share your interpretation if that background (which also includes levels of culture) isn't shared.

So what you may interpret as insensitive and racist might not be that. But some people in previous years can't comprehend that and see their truth as the absolute truth, and don't understand that meaning is given by context and that context isn't universally shared.

 

[ThisWreckage]

Lel, so no american can say anything because we have some insensitive outspoken citizens? Youre acting like one is being excused and the other isnt

They don't have the same history with race that we do. And for us to arrogantly expect them to change their customs and culture because of our history and caricatures that went along with it is outright stupidity.

 

[Kinyou]

Is this the point where we also talk about Mr. Popo cosplay?

 

[HovaHovito]

When you look at things you interpret it because of your background.

You can't reasonably expect people to share your interpretation if that background (which also includes levels of culture) isn't shared.

So what you may interpret as insensitive and racist might not be that. But some people in previous years can't comprehend that and see their truth as the absolute truth, and don't understand that meaning is given by context and that context isn't universally shared.

Im not even talking about slavery, its blackface lol. Its insensitive and wrong

They don't have the same history with race that we do. And for us to arrogantly expect them to change their customs and culture because of our history and caricatures that went along with it is outright stupidity.

Look at the post above

 

[itsgreen]

They don't have the same history with race that we do. And for us to arrogantly expect them to change their customs and culture because of our history and caricatures that went along with it is outright stupidity.

This.

 

[ThisWreckage]

Im not even talking about slavery, its blackface lol. Its insensitive and wrong

Look at the post above

I am through with this thread. If you can't see how blackface being offensive stems from America's history with slavery and minstrel shows and how that doesn't apply to another country's culture then I don't know what else to tell you. Our history, and the garbage that stemmed from it, doesn't apply to other countries.

 

[itsgreen]

Im not even talking about slavery, its blackface lol. Its insensitive and wrong

You are what I described in the last sentence.

You can't comprehend that there isn't something inherently racist about black face. The reason you think it is racist is because of your background.

 

[ThisWreckage]

You are what I described in the last sentence.

You can't comprehend that there isn't something inherently racist about black face. The reason you think it is racist is because of your background.

You can say this until you're blue in the face but some people that post on this forum simply will not get that. It's one reason why I'm bailing out. It is a complete waste of time to try to explain something so simple and so obvious for a million times.

 

[Atruvius]

Yup.

And it makes more sense than "zoen", don't you think?

In Finland those were called Nigger's Kiss(Neekerinsuukko). But the name was changed to just Kiss(Suukko) and the logo was slightly changed, though it still features a black couple kissing.

They taste pretty great.

 

[HovaHovito]

You are what I described in the last sentence.

You can't comprehend that there isn't something inherently racist about black face. The reason you think it is racist is because of your background.

What? How? I already said its the equivalent of someone stretching their skin to mock asians

 

[Roi]

The bad part is that the lead of the UN commission already has her opinion ready based on personal believe without any research on the Dutch culture and the culture around Sinterklaas.

Or this quote, my god "Why do you need two Santa Clauses anyway?"