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Zwarte Piet is a throwback to slavery, says UN working party chief

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Roland1979

Junior Member
More than one said that wouldn't mind a few changes. But I feel a lot of people dont really come into these threads to discuss those things, they'd rather point and call us racist, make a few condescending remarks and bail. Happens every year.

That might be true. So if it evokes very strong reactions, at the same time you might understand why people of African descent also feel strongly about this. Even if they are oke with it, it's not the future we should be heading in. And if we are going to change it we might as well do it sooner then later and do it well. Which means there still has to be a party for the children left. Tradition is a good thing, but so is getting rid of our ugly past. But i do hope it doesn't become a 'drive-by-thread". Serious discussion is what this needs, not condemning each other.

Btw i'm a Robben fan, and my parents live in Bedum, hometown of Arjen Robben.
 

Timedog

good credit (by proxy)
Where can I order this shit in the US?

0301a01fig1.jpg
 

LNBL

Member
For what its worth... Black people are a significant Minority in the Netherlands.
Much smaller percentage than in the US.

For example The MAjority of Blacks are from the Antilles and Suriname.
And the percentage of People from those regions is estimated at 0.8% and 2.0%

And You can probably split the 2% from Suriname in half to divide between the Hindustans imigrants and the Blacks.

Anyways one could estimate the population of Blacks to be ~3% of the total.
And a majority of those would live in the big cities Amsterdam, Rotterdam and Den Haag.

So when you say a "small" group of people.. you are absolutely right.



Hmm looks like my post was deleted :/

Felt it was appropriate now, since it is an actual subject at the moment in The Netherlands. Also the involvement of the UN is something that is making the subject even more loaded (right word? otherwise controversial) than previous years.
 

Metrotab

Banned
I still don't get it. If people claim that the racial undertones have been removed, and that it is no longer black slaves, but a person covered in soot, why we still got red lips and nappy wigs?

There is no real sensibility towards the particular elements of blackface as it exists in the US. The red lips and nappy wigs are now just attributes of Zwarte Piet, because that's how he culturally looks like.

There never was a single unchanged folklore! So it's oke that it has changed in the past but in the moment you are alive it's not oke?

Did I say that? Obviously folklore is fluid. And if you and your friends want to dress up as Black Sinterklaas and White Pete go ahead. Might even be considered funny. But don't expect society as a whole to put through such a radical change to a cherished cultural element.
 
There is no real sensibility towards the particular elements of blackface as it exists in the US. The red lips and nappy wigs are now just attributes of Zwarte Piet, because that's how he culturally looks like.

He looks like that because he was originally a racist caricature, right? I guess I just don't get why he can't look like an actual man covered in soot. Dropping the racist story but still keeping the racist imagery just doesn't really make sense to me.
 

Caayn

Member
I was outraged when I heard this. The worst thing is that the people in the UN who are handling this case clearly don't understand Sinterklaas. We've celebrated it for hundreds of years, and yet the UN dares to say that we should celebrate Santa Claus(Christmas) instead. As they see no need for a co-existence of Sinterklaas and Santa Claus.
""Why you want to have 2 Santa Clausses " - Verene Shepherd (UN)
 

Metrotab

Banned
He looks like that because he was originally a racist caricature, right? I guess I just don't get why he can't look like an actual man covered in soot. Dropping the racist story but still keeping the racist imagery just doesn't really make sense to me.

Correct. And there have been ideas of dropping the wigs and the red lips. However, these ideas get folded together with people who want to drop Zwarte Piet altogether, and that obviously gets strong resistance in the public sphere, even among politicians.

And since there's no real political momentum to change Zwarte Piet, since he is not considered problematic at all by the public at large, Zwarte Piet just generally stays as he is. The red lips and the wigs are simply not linked to racial imagery, because those elements are not contextualized in a blackface tradition. It's just how Zwarte Piet looks like.
 

Htown

STOP SHITTING ON MY MOTHER'S HEADSTONE
These threads are always fucking tiring, so I'm gonna keep this brief.

Zwarte Piet is a racist caricature.

Defend it if you want because of tradition or whatever, but don't fucking lie to yourself. You just look ridiculous.
 

Metrotab

Banned
These threads are always fucking tiring, so I'm gonna keep this brief.

Zwarte Piet is a racist caricature.

Defend it if you want because of tradition or whatever, but don't fucking lie to yourself. You just look ridiculous.

I definitely think he used to be.

But I think the question here is more nuanced, and much more interesting: can you use racial imagery if you decontextualize it from a colonial background (or whatever thoughts Zwarte Piet was founded on)? Can you even succesfully decontextualize such things? Because the majority of Flemish and Dutch people seems to think so.
 

Dude Abides

Banned
Very well, a character that might have happened to be black. What does it matter?

I thought it was considered key to why it's no longer a caricature of a black person.


You don't have to be racist against someone to be racist. Racial discrimination is racism too, and that is exactly what the Zwarte Pieten haters are doing.

This makes no sense, since nobody is racially discriminating by pointing out that the character resembles a racial caricature and appears to have originated as one.
 

Kabouter

Member
I was outraged when I heard this. The worst thing is that the people in the UN who are handling this case clearly don't understand Sinterklaas. We've celebrated it for hundreds of years, and yet the UN dares to say that we should celebrate Santa Claus(Christmas). As they see no need for a co-existence of Sinterklaas and Santa Claus.
""Why you want to have 2 Santa Clausses " - Verene Shepherd (UN)

Getting rid of Santa Clause seems like a better idea. Christmas is about Jesus, decorating trees, fighting with your family, and overeating. I think we can do without fat soft drink mascots* around the holidays.

All that said, I generally agree with Tence, and I can't really understand why people would hold on so tightly to the character being exactly the way it is now.

*I'm aware this isn't how Santa Clause came to be, settle down.
 

Roland1979

Junior Member
Did I say that? Obviously folklore is fluid. And if you and your friends want to dress up as Black Sinterklaas and White Pete go ahead. Might even be considered funny. But don't expect society as a whole to put through such a radical change to a cherished cultural element.

It's not about abrupt. It's about society unwilling to change. No matter if you remove the earrings or not, he is still black. And changing the color or not is only to protect yourself, not the children. Children have young minds and adapt very quickly. It is not the children, it is you (not you, i mean the adults) who have memories of your youth and new ideas colliding with it, even if you mean well. Trust me, the children will accept it if we come up with a good story. Like the Piet was needed in the past but now Sint hires companies to do their work. Or elves or some other fantasy creatures. It is the adult that have trouble adapting and the older they are, the harder it is for them. I see you point but a mistake would be in thinking this does change natural. It does not, it needs to get pushed. All the latest changes where no natural changes. We should not wait and hold off responsibility, we should do it now and do it well. We should come up with something acceptable and ask storytellers to make stories about that and slightly alter songs. Children will accept it, they just want to celebrate and receive gifts and wander about what they will get and eat candy. In almost every discussion it is about the adults, even though they are hardly ever aware of it and they rarely ever mention the kids, let alone wander how it is for them and what they want and what does make a festivity a good one in the eyes of children.
 
For what its worth... Black people are a significant Minority in the Netherlands.
Much smaller percentage than in the US.

For example The MAjority of Blacks are from the Antilles and Suriname.
And the percentage of People from those regions is estimated at 0.8% and 2.0%

And You can probably split the 2% from Suriname in half to divide between the Hindustans imigrants and the Blacks.

Anyways one could estimate the population of Blacks to be ~3% of the total.
And a majority of those would live in the big cities Amsterdam, Rotterdam and Den Haag.

So when you say a "small" group of people.. you are absolutely right.


Hmm looks like my post was deleted :/

It's small group within the black community who are offended by it. He asked about black people.
 

KanyeEast

Banned
Please read this. Zwarte piet is fucking racist.

http://www.pinkbullets.nl/2013/10/column/als-je-denkt-dat-zwarte-piet-zwart-van-het-roet-moet-je-je-na-laten-kijken-7562


Het zou prima kunnen dat Piet zijn kleur heeft de danken aan roet. Maar volgens mij krijg je geen kroeshaar, dikke rode lippen, slavenoorbellen en -armbanden van door schoorstenen kruipen. En ook is het opvallend dat Piet helemaal zwart is ("van het roet") maar zijn prachtige pak is helemaal schoon.
En terwijl Sint echt heeft bestaan, is Zwarte Piet in 1850 door Jan Schenkman bedacht, die toen een mooi boekje publiceerde over Sint Nicolaas en zijn knecht. Tot 1850 had Sint Nicolaas geen knecht. Door de eeuwen heen werd het feest wel al gevierd, maar besefte iedereen zich terdege dat de man al dood was (en dat de cadeautjes dus gewoon van vader en moeder kwamen), en zwarte knechten had hij niet. Maar dankzij Schenkman geloven we nu dat Sint uit Spanje komt, met een lading zwarte knechten en een stapel cadeaus.
Schenkman rept met geen woord over roet. Wel zegt hij letterlijk dat de knecht een zwarte kleur heeft. En de knecht strooit snoepgoed door de schoorsteen, maar zelf kruipt hij er nooit in. En als je naar de prenten kijkt uit het boek, kun je maar één conclusie trekken; die knecht is een neger.


Feit: Zwarte Piet is een neger, en bedacht door Jan Schenkman in 1850. Zeggen dat Piet zwart is van het roet, is onzin.
"Maar in het liedje zegt hij toch zelf 'ook al ben ik zwart als roet, ik meen het wel goed', dan is het toch geen neger?"
Even een lesje Nederlands; 'zwart als roet', betekent dat je net zo zwart bent als roet. Niet dat je zwart bent door het roet. Eigenlijk zingt Piet hier dus 'ja okay, ik ben zwart en dat is eng en gevaarlijk, maar ík ben wel te vertrouwen, want ik heb goede bedoelingen'.
"Maar maakt dat Piet dan racisme?!!?"
Sinterklaas heeft echt bestaan en was een Turkse bisschop. Op 6 december 342 overleed hij. In de 13e eeuw krijg hij officieel zijn naamdag op 6 december en sindsdien wordt het sinterklaasfeest in verschillende vormen gevierd; die altijd pasten bij de tijdsgeest.
Piet is een verzinsel van Jan Schenkman. In de tijd van Schenkman was het nog bon ton om te denken dat negers inferieur waren. De moderne Zwarte Piet is dan ook een stereotype van hoe wij intelligente blanken destijds tegen negers aankeken. Piet praat gebrekkig Nederlands, is een beetje dom en moet door een blanke man aangestuurd worden.
Dus ja; Zwarte Piet is racistisch. Behalve als je nog in 1850 leeft, dan is het helemaal okay om negers zo neer te zetten. Goed bedoeld en gezellig racisme is óók racisme.
"Maar het is traditie! We vieren Sinterklaas altijd al zo! Buitenlanders moeten Nederlandse tradities met rust laten!"
Euh, lees je nou helemaal niets van wat ik typ? We hebben Sinterklaas ruim 500 jaar gevierd zonder zwarte slaven, en pas 163 jaar mét de malle Piet. En daarnaast is Sinterklaas helemaal geen Nederlandse traditie (Klaas was immers een Turk) maar een Oosterse. Pas eeuwen na zijn dood zagen we Sinterklaas als een goed excuus om plezier te maken.
 

Roland1979

Junior Member
I don't think that's true. I think a lot simply gave up and stopped protesting because they don't feel heard or get attacked for it. A lot of women don't protest about their abuse either so that's not a valid argument to begin with. As long as he's black skinned it's still wrong.
 

Caayn

Member
Getting rid of Santa Clause seems like a better idea. Christmas is about Jesus, decorating trees, fighting with your family, and overeating. I think we can do without fat soft drink mascots* around the holidays.

All that said, I generally agree with Tence, and I can't really understand why people would hold on so tightly to the character being exactly the way it is now.

*I'm aware this isn't how Santa Clause came to be, settle down.
As has been said by Metrotab there were ideas of altering the look. But everytime they were shot down by the same people who want to get rid of Sinterklaas. There's no room for negotiation what so ever. Also the current look of zwarte piet helps parents playing zwarte piet at the school of their children or other places. Due to the heavy make-up, wig and strange outfits, children don't recognize the people playing zwarte piet. Adding to the believe they are real.

Also I think it must be said that I've never seen a child call a regular black person "zwarte piet". There's no racist intent anywhere in the current way/look of zwarte piet
nogger_black_02.jpg


haven't seen one in a while though.
They are still for sale, only they now go by the name "moorkop(pen)" Still find it absurd that negerzoenen (niggerkisses) got banned while jodenkoeken (jew cakes) and zigeunersaus (gipsy sauce) are still allowed.
 

Raiden

Banned
Lets get rid of Christmas and other Catholic holidays because it offends me.

I want an atheist day.

Fuck this trend of everything and anything being offense to something or someone. Every single kid that celebrates Sinterklaas knows that the Zwarte Pieten are black because they go through chimneys.

This whole drama event is probably putting more subconcious racism in kids than it would otherwise.
 

Avixph

Member
Lets get rid of Christmas and other Catholic holidays because it offends me.

I want an atheist day.

Fuck this trend of everything and anything being offense to something or someone. Every single kid that celebrates Sinterklaas knows that the Zwarte Pieten are black because they go through chimneys.

This whole drama event is probably putting more subconcious racism in kids than it would otherwise.

Going through a chimney doesn't give you red lips or nappy hair.
 

Chuckie

Member
Still find it absurd that negerzoenen (niggerkisses) got banned while jodenkoeken (jew cakes) and zigeunersaus (gipsy sauce) are still allowed.

First of all Negerzoenen translates as Negro kisses, not as Nigger kisses, second it was all a fucking publicity stunt by the producer of the sweets. It never got banned, they created the controversy to boost sales (and they failed). The whole Negerzoenen issue is an urban myth, one that in a few years time will probably be seen as 'truth'.
 
Argh... Saint Nicholas was not Turkish. The people who later became known as Turks lived in central-asia in that period and didn't come to nowadays Turkey for hundreds of years after the death of Saint Nicholas. He was Greek. (yes, I know, not that important in this discussion, but it irritates me how many Dutch people get this wrong.)
 

Caayn

Member
First of all Negerzoenen translates as Negro kisses, not as Nigger kisses, second it was all a fucking publicity stunt by the producer of the sweets. It never got banned, they created the controversy to boost sales (and they failed). The whole Negerzoenen issue is an urban myth, one that in a few years time will probably be seen as 'truth'.
You are correct on the translation. However you aren't correct on the "urban myth". Negerzoenen existed for a longer time than just a "publicity stunt", the name was introduced in the early 20th century. And was banned about 8 years orso ago.
 

methane47

Member
It's small group within the black community who are offended by it. He asked about black people.

What makes you think its a small group of people within the black community?
Maybe its a small group of people who are Vocal about it. But isn't that the case with every injustice?
 

Chuckie

Member
You are correct on the translation. However you aren't correct on the "urban myth". Negerzoenen existed for a longer time than just a "publicity stunt", the name was introduced in the early 20th century. And was banned about 8 years orso ago.

It is not banned. It was a decision by the company itself

Op 19 december 2006 werd bekendgemaakt dat de rel rond de naamsverandering een actie was van de marketingafdeling van de fabrikant. Er werd hierdoor heel veel aandacht besteed aan de Zoenen, maar flinke omzetstijgingen bleven uit. De omzet daalde zelfs iets doordat er consumenten waren die door de naamsverandering het product links lieten liggen.

Translation: On the 19th of December 2006 it was announced that the ruckus considering the name-change was a stunt from the marketing department of the producer. Because of it a lot of attention was given to the Kisses, but there were no significant raises in sales. The sales actually dropped a bit because some consumers did not buy the product anymore because of the name-change.

So I guess the urban myth is already considered a truth.
 

joetachi

Member
Lets get rid of Christmas and other Catholic holidays because it offends me.

I want an atheist day.

Fuck this trend of everything and anything being offense to something or someone. Every single kid that celebrates Sinterklaas knows that the Zwarte Pieten are black because they go through chimneys.

This whole drama event is probably putting more subconcious racism in kids than it would otherwise.

oh i didnt know you where born an antheist... great strawman.
 

TedNindo

Member
Belgian here. Was wondering when this would start showing up on Gaf again.

This usually turns out into an endless discussion and it is in no way connected with what Americans call blackface. But I can understand thier viewpoint bacause of historical and cultural differences.

First of all Negerzoenen translates as Negro kisses, not as Nigger kisses, second it was all a fucking publicity stunt by the producer of the sweets. It never got banned, they created the controversy to boost sales (and they failed). The whole Negerzoenen issue is an urban myth, one that in a few years time will probably be seen as 'truth'.

Here we call them Negerinnetetten.
 

xbhaskarx

Member
The people who say that zwarte piet isn't meant to be racial are being a little incredulous. Imagine if a country created an asian face caricature. The face has small eyes, is short etc. And that caricature overtime becomes an honored tradition. Would it not still be offensive to asian people? Should asian people not be offended just because the current culture of the country that uses it does not see it as offensive? I am using this as an example but it's this line of thinking that europeans should take into account when they think of zwarte piet.

But look at these photos of a few Asian people participating, that proves it's not racist!!
 

xbhaskarx

Member
While Zwarte Piet was indeed a caricature of a Moor, the people have tried actively to remove this association

(saying it is soot, not skincolour, removing the golden earrings, making him smart instead of stupid, removing his accent etc).

The Washington Redskins just say that their mascot has a bad sunburn, problem solved!


Edit: I'm sorry but I'm just blown away by this:

"saying it is soot not skincolour, removing the golden earrings, making him smart instead of stupid, removing his accent"

Yup not racist at all...
 

way more

Member
I know I was pretty offended by 'white face', I can imagine how black people feel.

white_chicks,0.jpg

They also used the H-word
Honkey
. And they call them "Whitey," it was awful!


I don't really want the entire world to conform to an Amero-centric view, but concerning this issue I think maybe if we all just make this face,


We can express disdain enough to get a dialogue going.
 
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