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[Linius]

Brainwash them when their young, that's a great idea. It's worked for many dictators over the time.

The fact that you drag dictators into this discussion as a comparison is worse than the whole matter being discussed. That's really low.

And adding the fact that Zwarte Piet and the whole Sinterklaas celebration has nothing to do with racism makes your post even worse. You make it sound like we use our Sinterklaas celebrations to brainwash children into thinking that racism is good. That's some twisted shit man.

The only matter we need to adress here is that the Zwarte Piet character in it's current appearance is seen as a racial caricature by a small group of people. To comfort those people and able them to enjoy this feast as well something should be done about Piet's appearance. By having all sorts of variations on Piet there's already been a huge step forward compared to previous years. But as most people probably know, it takes time to change a tradition that's been going on for more than a century now. I'm fairly sure we'll get to the point at which Piet in it's current appearance will be gone, but it won't happen over night.

 

[mellz]

The fact that you drag dictators into this discussion as a comparison is worse than the whole matter being discussed. That's really low.

And adding the fact that Zwarte Piet and the whole Sinterklaas celebration has nothing to do with racism makes your post even worse. You make it sound like we use our Sinterklaas celebrations to brainwash children into thinking that racism is good. That's some twisted shit man.

The only matter we need to adress here is that the Zwarte Piet character in it's current appearance is seen as a racial caricature by a small group of people. To comfort those people and able them to enjoy this feast as well something should be done about Piet's appearance. By having all sorts of variations on Piet there's already been a huge step forward compared to previous years. But as most people probably know, it takes time to change a tradition that's been going on for more than a century now. I'm fairly sure we'll get to the point at which Piet in it's current appearance will be gone, but it won't happen over night.

I think a lot of people do.

 

[Prophet Steve]

I think a lot of people do.

In The Netherlands it is relatively pretty little.

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

I personally wouldn't say racist in the same sense that a book like Oki en Doki bij de Nikkers

Haha wow, it's almost hilarious how racist that is, I mean I'm actually laughing by how stupidly racist it is.

I would say ethnicity rather than nationality. If you have, say, Surinamese heritage, you're Surinamese to most Dutch people, now and forever, regardless of your passport. I'd also say racism continues to be a pretty large issue, especially given how pervasive it is.

I don't think that's discrimination or racism to ethnicity, to me that's just an easy way to describe a person.
Like if I hooked up with a girl and my friends asked me what she looked like, saying "een hollandse meid" would narrow it down to her being white. I've never been discriminated against for my heritage, but maybe that's because I live in a city that's saturated with different ethnicities.

the poster is pathetically transparent in their line of questioning. im sure you knew what they were getting at though. of course they confirmed it and their final response was just as pathetic.

Yeah, which is why I refrained from answering them or indulging them any further..

 

[AkuMifune]

In The Netherlands it is relatively pretty little.

You might want to consider why that is, and how sure you are of it.

Even according to (your?) own government the number increases each year, almost double the complaints from last year, and is something that will need to be dealt with.

 

[Tesseract]

I think a lot of people do.

are there any numbers on this, either way?

 

[Linius]

I think a lot of people do.

Even though it might not be meant in such a way, I can understand Zwarte Piet comes across as disciriminating for black people

- 22% Agreed
- 75% Disagreed
- 3% No Opinion

What do you think need to happen with Piet's appearance?

- 83% Don't Change
- 13% Change
- 4% No Opinion

Zwarte Piet is a negative stereotype

- 6% Agreed
- 91% Disagreed
- 3% No Opinion

These numbers come from a 40.000 members big panel. 27.797 members participated in this survey. It's a serious opinion panel from the public broadcasting company for a show that covers the news and goes into subjects deeper than a usual news programme. Source can be seen here.

Over here we're still talking about a very small minority.

 

[Prophet Steve]

You might want to consider why that is, and how sure you are of it.

Even according to (your?) own government the number increases each year, almost double the complaints from last year, and is something that will need to be dealt with.

I know perfectly well that it is because it is a celebration that a majority of us has celebrated as a child when we did not see any harm in doing so.

And I also know that there are more people protesting about this and that we should change it.

I am just saying there aren't a lot of people, unlike he said and I agree that this shouldn't be taken as us deliberate trying to brainwash our children.

 

[Stet]

Even though it might not be meant in such a way, I can understand Zwarte Piet comes across as disciriminating for black people

- 22% Agreed
- 75% Disagreed
- 3% No Opinion

What do you think need to happen with Piet's appearance?

- 83% Don't Change
- 13% Change
- 4% No Opinion

Zwarte Piet is a negative stereotype

- 6% Agreed
- 91% Disagreed
- 3% No Opinion

These numbers come from a 40.000 members big panel. 27.797 members participated in this survey. It's a serious opinion panel from the public broadcasting company for a show that covers the news and goes into subjects deeper than a usual news programme. Source can be seen here.

Over here we're still talking about a very small minority.

"Over here we're still talking about a very small minority" could refer to the black population of the Netherlands as well. That doesn't make them worth ignoring.

 

[Quixzlizx]

I don't think that poster was saying that Dutch parents were intentionally brainwashing their children into being racists (although I'm not him, so I can't say with any surety). I think the point was that the logic that "they are little kids, so it's not like they even know any better" is a bad rationalization for keeping the tradition. It's specifically because they don't know any better yet that they shouldn't be potentially internalizing a racial caricature. While I'm not saying Zwarte Piet is causing anyone to grow up to be racist, it does seem to cause people growing up with it to think that obvious racial caricatures that were originally rooted in colonialist racism aren't a problem, as evidenced by those opinion polls you just cited.

PS: I'm not saying that Zwarte Piet as a concept is rooted in colonialist racism, just the minstrel show portrayal with blackface + exaggerated red lips + earrings + afro.

 

[RJT]

Even though it might not be meant in such a way, I can understand Zwarte Piet comes across as disciriminating for black people

- 22% Agreed
- 75% Disagreed
- 3% No Opinion

What do you think need to happen with Piet's appearance?

- 83% Don't Change
- 13% Change
- 4% No Opinion

This is what I don't get: nearly half of the people that think it comes across as discriminating say "fuck it, I don't care, don't change it".

 

[Raven Prime]

This is what I don't get: nearly half of the people that think it comes across as discriminating say "fuck it, I don't care, don't change it".

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the situation in the Netherlands is probably best explained as cognitive dissonance. I mean how else is a 'modern' nation capable of perpetuating a tradition with racist elements in 2014, when the whole world shakes it's head in disbelief.

 

[Linius]

"Over here we're still talking about a very small minority" could refer to the black population of the Netherlands as well. That doesn't make them worth ignoring.

Not talking about ignoring anyone. But I used the words small minority and people wanted to see numbers to back that up. Here are those numbers.

 

[Deleted member 13876]

Reader mail in Belgian newspapers today featured tons of people outraged the debate has begun again, calling it "an illness contracted from the Netherlands" and all sorts of lovely indignation. The dude who yelled the loudest got the letter of the day slot. Then there's people posting articles on Facebook about a few black people who are okay with it and dressed up as the character as if it completely voids any possible discussion.

 

[tbm24]

Reader mail in Belgian newspapers today featured tons of people outraged the debate has begun again, calling it "an illness contracted from the Netherlands" and all sorts of lovely indignation. The dude who yelled the loudest got the letter of the day slot. Then there's people posting articles on Facebook about a few black people who are okay with it and dressed up as the character as if it completely voids any possible discussion.

What I've taken most from this whole discussion is that for many in both Belgium and the Netherlands(tho I guess more so in Belgium), many people are simply putting their hands on their ears and eyes towards this whole thing.

 

[Deleted member 13876]

What I've taken most from this whole discussion is that for many in both Belgium and the Netherlands(tho I guess more so in Belgium), many people are simply putting their hands on their ears and eyes towards this whole thing.

One particularly offensive letter was about a politically active muslim who had been out of the public's eye for a while but recently reappeared in a popular quiz show. The reader went on to describe how he'd enjoyed his appearance on the quiz show and thought he had "finally learned the folly of his ways" but him speaking out on the issue convinced him he was still the "same old troublemaker".

 

[SecretSphere]

As a White person, I don't think you're entitled to determine what constitutes suffering from a racist caricature. Nor do your claim that the majority of Black people in the Netherlands aren't offended count as a valid source - unless you actually have valid statitistics on it? Otherwise you're just speaking from your own racially narrow experiences as a White person in a White supremacist society.

http://www.os.amsterdam.nl/pdf/2013_zwarte piet.pdf

Page 3 of this research in Amsterdam. Column "discriminerend voor mijzelf" means "discriminating for me". 27% of people with Suriname origins agree, 18% Dutch antilles, 14% Ghanese. It's from 2012.

 

[wildfire]

It could definitely be offensive to the black race, especially in the context of history, but racism is defined as a belief that one race is superior or inferior to another.

While I definitely cringe at this, I have a hard time classifying them all as racist when they are most likely just innocently following a tradition.

You're banned but I'm sure you are reading this thread. You are oversimplifying racism. Racism is also about the group superiority complex forming a set of traditions to enforce or celebrate it.

So next time ask yourself if you can reach back in history and see the inherent racism. This thread is already revealing that the origins of this tradition are in fact racist.

 

[Bricky]

Looking into the topic it seems to me that Zwarte Piet has been changing pretty much constantly. From being a scary demon to being a dumb slave to being a helpful childlike 'chimney sweep assistant' to the old white guy. Some other aspects such as the dumb 'black' accent is in the process of being dumped too. With the constant yearly pressure I'm really hoping that the transformation will be complete either with the rainbow option or the actual soot option.

Yeah, I hadn't really thought about it that way but you're right. He has already changed a lot over the years. It's been only recently though that his 'modern' form (the one used for the last decade or two) has come under fire (well, from within the country that is).

 

[Raven Prime]

http://www.os.amsterdam.nl/pdf/2013_zwarte piet.pdf

Page 3 of this research in Amsterdam. Column "discriminerend voor mijzelf" means "discriminating for me". 27% of people with Suriname origins agree, 18% Dutch antilles, 14% Ghanese. It's from 2012.

Assuming that these numbers are actually representitive, something I always doubt with opinion polls. Then we are talking about more than at least 100.000 people. While that clearly is a minority compared to the total population of the Netherlands. It still is a massive amount of people that actually feel discriminated by this tradition. And that's not even considering the Dutch people offended by this that have a different ethnic background.

 

[spekkeh]

You're banned but I'm sure you are reading this thread. You are oversimplifying racism. Racism is also about the group superiority complex forming a set of traditions to enforce or celebrate it.

So next time ask yourself if you can reach back in history and see the inherent racism. This thread is already revealing that the origins of this tradition are in fact racist.

While I agree that racism can work much more subtly and that the way caricature elements were introduced into his representation and especially concerns about that waved away bespeaks casual racism, the origins of Zwarte Piet are muddled at best and very likely not racist.

 

[Raven Prime]

While I agree that racism can work much more subtly and that the way caricature elements were introduced into his representation and especially concerns about that waved away bespeaks casual racism, the origins of Zwarte Piet are muddled at best and very likely not racist.

If you are talking about the pre-colonial forebearers of Zwarte Piet then I would agree wholeheartedly. But if you are talking about the figure, that most accept was introduced by Jan Schenkman in 1850. Then I wouldn't agree at all, whilst Schenkman didn't do much more than simply create a figure that reflected the status quo of that time. It's quite clear that this figure conceived and fleshed out during colonial times, received all the stereotypical features and behaviors that were in line with the racist notions during that age of colonialism and slavery.

 

[mellz]

The Afro-Swedish National Association wrote a letter to the Dutch Embassy in Sweden regarding their hosting of a Sinterklaas party.

Dear Mr Ambassador

It has come to our attention that the Netherlands Embassy in Stockholm will be hosting a Sinterklaas party on 30 November. Sinterklaas will be arriving at Skeppsbron with his slave-servant “Zwarte Piet” who is dressed like a renaissance minstrel with “blackface”, painted red lips and an afro wig. From what we have learned the character typically speak Dutch with a stupid accent, and acts childlike and mischievous when performing making him more akin to a child than an adult. This of course is part of European racist generalizations applied to black people that used to be widespread but can no longer be made explicitly.

You don't have to have a degree in psychology or sociology to work out that the figure of Zwarte Piet ensure the continued internalisation of ideas of superiority of white people, and of inferiority and marginalisation of black people. Nor do you need it to understand the associate power of symbols like Zwarte Piet.

But instead of debating the racist nature of Zwarte Piet we would rather remind you of your former foreign minister, Frans Timmerman’s, words when interviewed by Swedish radio 28 November 2013. He stated that the Netherlands Embassies only parade Zwarte Piet characters in select countries of the world because of public opinion. For this reason you do not have Zwarte Piet characters in New York to name one example. This leads us to believe that you have misjudged Swedish public sentiment. Sweden has a large and vocal Afro-Swedish community and we are every bit as sensitive to racist affronts as African-Americans. Should you go ahead with parading Zwarte Piet characters in Stockholm this year we will of course make our sentiments heard.

We trust, Your Excellency, that we can attribute this to a misjudgement about Sweden on your part and we urge you to reconsider this year’s Sinterklaas-party in Stockholm so as not to offend the Afroswedish community and other Swedish people who take issues of racism seriously.

Yours sincerely

Zakaria Zouhir
Chair Person, The Afro-Swedish National Association in Stockholm

Kitimbwa Sabuni
Secretary general, The Afro-Swedish National Association

According to this article though, the embassy has decided to continue with the celebration saying that the Dutch government has no opinion of the matter and thus the embassy can not have that either. She also says that this celebration has taken place many times before.

 

[methane47]

The only matter we need to adress here is that the Zwarte Piet character in it's current appearance is seen as a racial caricature by a small group of people. To comfort those people and able them to enjoy this feast as well something should be done about Piet's appearance.

I'm getting a huge condescending vibe from this post.

 

[spekkeh]

If you are talking about the pre-colonial forebearers of Zwarte Piet then I would agree wholeheartedly. But if you are talking about the figure, that most accept was introduced by Jan Schenkman in 1850. Then I wouldn't agree at all, whilst Schenkman didn't do much more than simply create a figure that reflected the status quo of that time. It's quite clear that this figure conceived and fleshed out during colonial times, received all the stereotypical features and behaviors that were in line with the racist notions during that age of colonialism and slavery.

Reflected the status quo of that time? I don't think there were that many black helps (as I said slavery was forbidden in the Netherlands). At best you could say that his making the character black, which was a rarity, could be due to some kind of magical negro archetype, that would make it racist. Then again

1) in the context of a magical horse, magical patron saint, magical saintliness, magical endless amount of gifts, this is also a bit par for the course. And not that different from the three kings, probably even more benign
2) it's veering a bit into damned if you do... territory, cf. the Czech developer that got lambasted for not including black characters
3) there were earlier mentions (ca. 1820) of a Sinterklaas celebration in an Amsterdam patrician building that featured sinterklaas and a funny guy named 'pietermeknecht', it could be that Schenkman just wrote down this particular celebration and had no ulterior motives
4) any motives or inspirational sources of Schenkman are really up in the air. We simply don't know whether it's based on colonial ideas, the crows of Odin, Krampus, or the story of saintly apparition Nicolas freeing a slave.

edit: I'm assuming here that Schenkman just wrote about a black servant named Pieter and not the zwarte piet in blackamoor-like style we have today.

 

[Steeven]

Your argument for this racist tradition is that while the Dutch were participating in racist colonialism they took the time out to dress up in black face? Since they did it for so long we should respect the tradition?

It's a tradition born of colonialism, and much like colonialism, it should be remembered but never celebrated.

That particular conflict in your picture is one of the most shameful moments in Dutch history, the fact that soldiers had that tradition back then is a very poor argument in its favor.

I guess both of you completely missed the point of my post, which was already rightfully suggested by Kabouter.

I sketched the historical context of this tradition, which was celebrated even in the most extreme times. My post was mainly aimed at those who are asking questions in this thread why Sinterklaas is so popular. Well, there it is. The roots are deeply embedded into Dutch society, which is why the national discussion has become so militant.

I think that this year proved that adjustments can and will be accepted and will eventually be the norm, although I do prefer 'Roetveegpiet' instead of 'Rainbowpieten'.

 

[SirJackDaniels]

http://youtu.be/65ERQNg_Fcc


Just be amazed by 1935 footage of the sinterklaas parade. this is more evidence of the anti piet protesters that the pro pieten are ignorant.

Video summarised: No black face piets and still a party going on.

Pro Piets explain please?

 

[fabricated backlash]

I think part of the hostile rejection of racism claims also has to do with the notion that this criticism is coming from outside the Netherlands. It might be seen as a cultural invasion and certainly the terms used to criticize this tradition are coined in a north american context. Which in itself is a delicate issue.

Where I come from, there's a tradition involving the 3 Kings, where kids would dress up as the 3 Kings and go from house to house singing christmas songs and collect donations for charities or church organizations, with one of them having it's face painted black. This has since been abolished, but the reaction to it in most of the population was that it was a foreign aggression against a local tradition. And while it wasn't met with quite such opposition, the arguments behind it were comparable in their reasoning.

 

[Baron Doggystyle von Woof]

http://youtu.be/65ERQNg_Fcc


Just be amazed by 1935 footage of the sinterklaas parade. this is more evidence of the anti piet protesters that the pro pieten are ignorant.

Video summarised: No black face piets and still a party going on.

Pro Piets explain please?

bb.bbb.bbbbuttt zwarte piet is tradition and should stay black, even tho they weren't black before.

 

[Linius]

http://www.cinecrowd.nl/zwartgemaakt

This will be interesting. A group of people is making an objective documentary on the origins of Zwarte Piet. The main guy is a journalist who's been researching the Sinterklaas celebrations for 30 years now. They've traveled all over Europe and it will also feature images from other countries. They've already reached their goal of 30.000 euros. Now they want to see if they can get enough money together to make an international version of it as well since foreign people are also interested.

Here's the trailer. Still in Dutch of course.

 

[ISOM]

http://www.cinecrowd.nl/zwartgemaakt

This will be interesting. A group of people is making an objective documentary on the origins of Zwarte Piet. The main guy is a journalist who's been researching the Sinterklaas celebrations for 30 years now. They've traveled all over Europe and it will also feature images from other countries. They've already reached their goal of 30.000 euros. Now they want to see if they can get enough money together to make an international version of it as well since foreign people are also interested.

Here's the trailer. Still in Dutch of course.

I have a feeling watching Zwarte Piet's ugly origins will change the perception of some people who still don't want to change this tradition. That is if they want to face it.

 

[neorej]

http://youtu.be/65ERQNg_Fcc


Just be amazed by 1935 footage of the sinterklaas parade. this is more evidence of the anti piet protesters that the pro pieten are ignorant.

Video summarised: No black face piets and still a party going on.

Pro Piets explain please?

Yes, the "traditionalists" are very unaware of the actual tradition and are only clinging to the tradition as far as their own childhood. Your condescending tone however is part of why the change anti-pieten are pushing for is meeting such resistance.

But similarly, I would like a response from anti-Pieten to this footage from 2013: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESxgvz-ET24

Summary: black people of slavery descend celebrating Sinterklaas with Black Petes and not feeling discriminated or offended at all. Can someone explain to me the difference between the Carribean Dutch Pieten and the Cold Shity Weather Dutch Pieten?

 

[Linius]

Yes, the "traditionalists" are very unaware of the actual tradition and are only clinging to the tradition as far as their own childhood. Your condescending tone however is part of why the change anti-pieten are pushing for is meeting such resistance.

But similarly, I would like a response from anti-Pieten to this footage from 2013: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESxgvz-ET24

Summary: black people of slavery descend celebrating Sinterklaas with Black Petes and not feeling discriminated or offended at all. Can someone explain to me the difference between the Carribean Dutch Pieten and the Cold Shity Weather Dutch Pieten?

That's why I chose to ignore his post. Because we can probably counter videos all day long and ask each other the same question.

 

[spekkeh]

http://www.cinecrowd.nl/zwartgemaakt

This will be interesting. A group of people is making an objective documentary on the origins of Zwarte Piet. The main guy is a journalist who's been researching the Sinterklaas celebrations for 30 years now. They've traveled all over Europe and it will also feature images from other countries. They've already reached their goal of 30.000 euros. Now they want to see if they can get enough money together to make an international version of it as well since foreign people are also interested.

Here's the trailer. Still in Dutch of course.

Documentaries are hardly ever objective. I believe this guy was already quite vocal that he had researched Sinterklaas for thirty years (that generally means you are quite fond of it), that Sinterklaas isn't racist but that he was never interviewed.

 

[Earthpainting]

"Over here we're still talking about a very small minority" could refer to the black population of the Netherlands as well. That doesn't make them worth ignoring.

This is a real possibility, but ultimately I don't think this even matters. Whether or not it is domestically not a problem, is not relevant on a global stage. 100% of the Dutch people of all heritages could be fine with it, and it still wouldn't change the toxic elements of the tradition. If we want to enjoy the benefits of globalisation, then being respectful to global issues is a fair trade-off. Especially since we're dealing with a matter that most people would agree on if it wasn't for the warm fuzzy memories they associate with it. There are plenty of ways you can depict fictional characters without having to resort to salting old wounds. Kids may wonder what's up for a few years, but ultimately they'll grow out of believing in it rather quickly anyway. The kids that come after won't even know anything changed.

 

[poppabk]

This is a real possibility, but ultimately I don't think this even matters. Whether or not it is domestically not a problem, is not relevant on a global stage. 100% of the Dutch people of all heritages could be fine with it, and it still wouldn't change the toxic elements of the tradition. If we want to enjoy the benefits of globalisation, then being respectful to global issues is a fair trade-off. Especially since we're dealing with a matter that most people would agree on if it wasn't for the warm fuzzy memories they associate with it. There are plenty of ways you can depict fictional characters without having to resort to salting old wounds. Kids may wonder what's up for a few years, but ultimately they'll grow out of believing in it rather quickly anyway. The kids that come after won't even know anything changed.

This isn't possible. Should the US be respectful of the anti-gay sentiments that a large number of nations hold?

 

[methane47]

But similarly, I would like a response from anti-Pieten to this footage from 2013: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESxgvz-ET24

Summary: black people of slavery descend celebrating Sinterklaas with Black Petes and not feeling discriminated or offended at all. Can someone explain to me the difference between the Carribean Dutch Pieten and the Cold Shity Weather Dutch Pieten?

In the Dutch antilles there have been multicolored pieten for years. Black is just the dominant color. While in the Netherlands, when people first tried to introduce Multicolored, Piets they were met with Death Threats Lol

Because of this Backlash against a servant of another color, anti piets have decided to go the route of changing the current black piet's appearance.

http://youtu.be/65ERQNg_Fcc
Just be amazed by 1935 footage of the sinterklaas parade. this is more evidence of the anti piet protesters that the pro pieten are ignorant.
Video summarised: No black face piets and still a party going on.
Pro Piets explain please?

I can explain this, Before I believe WW2, Sinterklaas had only ONE servant. After WW2 the canadians decided to have tonnes of their soldiers dress up as zwarte piet to give gifts to the kids. The Multiple piets stuck. But this would explain why you dont see the piet in this video.

 

[Joni]

http://youtu.be/65ERQNg_Fcc


Just be amazed by 1935 footage of the sinterklaas parade. this is more evidence of the anti piet protesters that the pro pieten are ignorant.

Video summarised: No black face piets and still a party going on.

Pro Piets explain please?

He was there. You just don't see him clearly in the video.

 

[Earthpainting]

This isn't possible. Should the US be respectful of the anti-gay sentiments that a large number of nations hold?

I'm not sure if you can compare tolerance with intolerance like that. I think the more direct analogy would be if other countries should be allowed to continue their questionable sentiments towards homosexuality if they think it's harmless or acceptable. My reaction to that would also be "no", but I guess we do have quite a lot of examples of how this plays out in the real world. We have quite a lot of trade partners that continue to do exactly that, especially within the OPEC. We had another recent example with the Sochi Winter Olympics and we'll get even more with the two next World Cup football tournaments as well. Very disappointing when you think about what "we" are technically letting slide from the countries we interact with.

 

[methane47]

I'm not sure if you can compare tolerance with intolerance like that. I think the more direct analogy would be if countries should be allowed to continue their questionable sentiments towards homosexuality if they think it's harmless or acceptable. My reaction to that would also be "no", but I guess we do have quite a lot of examples of how this plays out in the real world. We have quite a lot of trade partners that continue to do exactly that, especially within the OPEC. We had another recent example with the Sochi Winter Olympics and we'll get even more with the two next World Cup football tournaments as well. Very disappointing when you think about what "we" are technically letting slide.

The Government in general is not responsible for creating a party to Praise/Denegrate Homosexuality.

And furthermore. Protests almost EVERYwhere in the world Against homosexuality are allowed basically Along side the parade.

Not 3-5 blocks down the road, around a few corners, across a river.. behind god's back.

 

[Prophet Steve]

The Government in general is not responsible for creating a party to Praise/Denegrate Homosexuality.

And furthermore. Protests almost EVERYwhere in the world Against homosexuality are allowed basically Along side the parade.

http://www.deathandtaxesmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/LoveProtest.jpg[IMG]

[IMG]http://s3-ec.buzzfed.com/static/2014-07/2/13/enhanced/webdr10/enhanced-2379-1404323481-17.jpg[IMG]

Not 3-5 blocks down the road, around a few corners, across a river.. behind god's back.[/QUOTE]

And in that case it wasn't allowed because there was a known opposition party in an area with a lot of children and they thought the other group would get provoked.

Which is what happened.

 

[Union Carbine]

And in that case it wasn't allowed because there was a known opposition party in an area with a lot of children and they thought the other group would get provoked.

Doesn't that seem wrong to you? You can't be where you want to because these other people might respond badly? So the protestors are responsible for what the anti-protestors might do?

 

[Joni]

The Government in general is not responsible for creating a party to Praise/Denegrate Homosexuality.

And furthermore. Protests almost EVERYwhere in the world Against homosexuality are allowed basically Along side the parade.

Not 3-5 blocks down the road, around a few corners, across a river.. behind god's back.

That wouldn't happen in countries like The Netherlands where for public safety, they wouldn't get a permit to protest right next to each other.

 

[Arjen]

Doesn't that seem wrong to you? You can't be where you want to because these other people might respond badly? So the protestors are responsible for what the anti-protestors might do?

Retaining public safety seems perfectly normal to me.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

In The Netherlands it is relatively pretty little.

And this only reinforces the idea the Netherlands is at best a racially ignorant society and at worst a racist one when it comes to black faces and marginalization of certain minority groups.

 

[Lime]

Retaining public safety seems perfectly normal to me.

The Netherlands are sure as fuck not retaining public safety for the ones harmed by this explicitly racist imagery.

 

[Prophet Steve]

Doesn't that seem wrong to you? You can't be where you want to because these other people might respond badly? So the protestors are responsible for what the anti-protestors might do?

I wished they would be able to just protest without problems there. But I feel they are partly responsible when they explicitly not allowed to protest near the parade in concern of public (and specifically children) safety, which they have been told. And clearly those worries were justified. Even though I believe in their cause, I feel they are still responsible for what happened.

Wouldn't you feel it is irresponsible for the local government to allow them to protest there while there is a likely chance of this happening? I feel that cancelling the entire event while not changing the public perception would cause big problems too. Especially when it then feels like local governments "succumbing" to protest groups instead of genuinely believing it is racially insensitive.

As for the pro-pieten, of course everyone of them are responsible too. But it was known that they couldn't be accounted for and the anti-protestors were warned about that.

And this only reinforces the idea the Netherlands is at best a racially ignorant society and at worst a racist one when it comes to black faces and marginalization of certain minority groups.

Jeez, thanks. Honestly I feel we aren't doing that bad compared to other countries and there is something being done about this tradition. During this discussion there is an outrage on a racist joke about a black boy in The Netherlands by the way.

The Netherlands are sure as fuck not retaining public safety for the ones harmed by this explicitly racist imagery.

Of course they were, why do you think they weren't allowed to protest there? You are not going to keep an army of policemen at a children festival to keep two protesting groups away from each other.

 

[Arjen]

The Netherlands are sure as fuck not retaining public safety for the ones harmed by this explicitly racist imagery.

You don't see any problems with potential riots during a festival with thousands of kids present and God knows how many kids watching that on TV?

 

[Lime]

I'm pointing out that the premise of the argument that public safety matters above all else would also include the public safety of the ones being oppressed, marginalized, and harmed by the racist caricature. If public safety matters, then the safety of the affected groups also matters.

 

[Linius]

Sometimes when I read this thread I feel like people are completely looking past the part where there is actually a change going on. Big changes don't happen overnight, that shouldn't be news for anyone. But I'm pretty sure that even once all ZP's lose their earrings, curly hair and red lips the anti-piet movement still won't be satisfied.

What also doesn't really help the anti-piet movement is their way of protesting, as once again demonstrated in Gouda. And like that time that our good friend Quinsy Gario tweeted that "white lives matter more than black lives" when our prime minister paid his respects to the victims of MH17.