PjotrStroganov
Member
It's interesting to see that the tone of discussion has changed in the yearly ZP thread. It seems that many Dutch people over here tend to have a less knee jerk reaction to the issue.
The photo I was responding to was taken in the 1940s when the dutch were fighting to maintain their colonies and subjugate non-white natives. The poster used this to highlight the rich tradition of zwarte pieten
I'm pretty sure that exposing children to peaceful protests is far less extreme than exposing them to racist parades.
My claim is not factually wrong. Please show me clear examples of mayors introducing Soot Petes before 2012.
The characteristics of Zwarte Piet have changed, as do all traditions. But that change has been very slow. As I already described before the change has mainly consisted of Zwarte Piet losing his thick fake accent, losing the birching and the removal of the Spain kidnapping narrative. When it comes to the appearance of Zwarte Piet very little has changed in the last 60 years or so. Only now because of internal pressure of movements like ZPiR and external pressure like from the U.N. can we see a clear change in the appearance of Zwarte Piet and still that is rare on a national scale.
It's real, despite the fact that the carriage was made decades after the abolition of slavery, the imagery is eerily reminiscent of it. I think there is some merit to the idea that the golden carriage is better at home in a museum than in a yearly celebration.
As far as the person who said a presidency would be more expensive than a monarchy, it is nigh impossible for a presidency to cost more than the Dutch monarchy is costing at the moment, it being by some length the most expensive monarchy to maintain in all of Europe.
It's not a solution to anything. Will changing the color suddenly not make it racist in the eyes of those who think Zwarte Piet is racist? No. You still have 'servants' working for a older, wiser white man, 'servants' that used to be black.
Okay, clearly you don't really know the origins of Zwarte Piet and Sinterklaas. Let me give a recap for the people that don't know either:
The Sinterklaas festival has been around for way, way longer than colonialism and even Zwarte Piet. Sinterklaas was based on a Turkish (back in the days of the Eastern Roman Empire) holy man called Nicolaas of Myra. He was the patron saint of kids and that's where Sinterklaas as a festival for kids comes from. Originally he was meant as a boogieman for naughty kids, but over the years he transformed into a kind man.
Zwarte Piet was introduced in the late 19th century (after the colonialism era) by a picture book called 'Sinterklaas en zijn Knecht'. This knecht (page) was clearly racist in tone, as many people were those days (even renowned writers as H.P. Lovecraft and Edgar Allen Poe were extremely racist). The (unnamed) page in this book was some sort of boogieman, scaring naughty kids while Sinterklaas gave the nice kids candy and toys. It's interesting to note that the first 'Piet' (who wasn't called that yet), was on his own. Occassionally there would be two, but never more.
The idea of multiple Pieten at the Sinterklaas festival actually didn't come from the Dutch, but from the Canadians, who all dressed up as Pieten after the Second World War. Throughout the years the image of the Pieten has changed. Up until the mid-80's you could argue that the original ('racist') origins of Zwarte Piet were still there, he was still the boogieman who would take you away if you had behaved badly. In the late 80's/early 90's this changed though (just like that happened centuries before with Sinterklaas) and Zwarte Piet became a kind helper that entertained the children with jokes, acrobatic tricks, fun adventures (De Club van Sinterklaas, a show every child watches, is all about how the Pieten singlehandidly save the Sinterklaas festival every year from cartoonesque bad people who try to stop Sinterklaas).
Also, as many people have pointed out, for the past ten years they have seperated themselves from the racist stereotype even more by no longer using red lipstick en masse (only certain Pieten still had it). The only thing that stayed was the black color, simply because the Pieten are called Zwarte Pieten and the black color is just part of their attire.
Anyway, the point is that while De Zwarte Pieten may have started as a racist stereotype heavily influenced by the colonial age (but by no means did it start in the colonial age), they haven't had a racist or scary connotation in years. We, as kids, just have fun with it and see these Pieten as fun, kind people who give us candy, presents and have these grand adventures to protect the festival. Furthermore, in the 90's one of the most popular children's music bands in the country (VOF de Kunst) made a song celebrating the black Zwarte Pieten in the song Witte Zwarte Pieten (White Black Petes) in which they state that the white Zwarte Pieten are nasty people who are basically the boogiemen that the Zwarte Piet started as and that that's why Sinterklaas doesn't take them with him.
It definitely helps that GAF spreads across the globe. It's a lot easier to understand what the issue is when you see different iterations pop up in other countries, and hear people's experiences with them. When all your associations with a variant blackface are memories of fun, good times and presents, it's easy to see why people who lack other perspectives will be more resistant.It's interesting to see that the tone of discussion has changed in the yearly ZP thread. It seems that many Dutch people over here tend to have a less knee jerk reaction to the issue.
As I said, I know that colonialism didn't end until the Second World War, I just worded this wrong (the book came out after the Dutch abolished slavery). Anyway, my response wasn't really specifically aimed at you, but there's this idea going around that Zwarte Piet is this age-old tradition going back to the times where the Dutch were the biggest slave traders in the world (a period in time we're not proud of and no one in their right mind would celebrate this) while it's not and I just wanted to set the record straight.
It appears you and I have a very different opinion on what is peaceful. Therefor this discussion is moot.
I'll leave you with this; over the years, people have been naturally adjusting Piet's appearance gradually and, most importantly, voluntarily. According to psychologists around the globe, this is the best form of change, because people will hardly recognise the change. "Boil a frog in slowly heating water and he'll accept his fate, throw a frog in boiling water and he jumps out" is a much-used metaphor on how change is best applied. These are not the tactics employed by Quinsy Gario and his movement.
While the Dutch were major participants in the slave trade, and were responsible for untold atrocities, there was no such time. Some estimates of the figures here.
No no no, you understood me wrong. The etymological root is from these languages. In the English language they use the term Negro to point out someone with a dark skincolor or more precisely someone of Sub Saharan African decent.
The same is true for the Dutch word Neger. Both these words are related to the Latin Niger and the Spanish, Portuguese and Italian Negro. The same etymological root exist for the N-word. That's my point.
There are a couple of reasons that this issue has been here for way too long :
The (both local and national) government is highly involved in the organizing of the event and everything around it. It is not like Santa here where 99% is arranged by the local stores/groups but this is something big (like organizing queens/kings day here). Thus anything that is remotely offensive is either condoned or supported directly by the government (and things like national tv channels). This makes it a very interesting and dangerous topic (see the heated discussions). Everyone is involved and opinions and solutions need to be coordinated but are done too slow.
The changes over time were instigated too slow and now are being rushed. Every single person can see that this at the very least could offend people (what to do with that given is a different discussion). Change is needed and has started a couple of years ago. But now that things are getting more and more heated up there is no easy way out. This could have easily be solved by making small but effective changes over time. Sadly this started way too late. So now people feel the need to protest more on both sides.
I do agree with Raven here that something like this has to happen to make an actual change. As long as shit does not hit the fan we are way to comfortable to leave things as it is (and as it has been done the past 30 or so years).
Best solution in my eyes would be to go back to the old old old way of celebrating (before the books/stories on Sint & Piet) by having demon like creatures that scare the shit out of kids.
Ah, the good old Portuguese golden age...
It's interesting to see that the tone of discussion has changed in the yearly ZP thread. It seems that many Dutch people over here tend to have a less knee jerk reaction to the issue.
I hope you aren't actually romanticizing that era.The Dutch also considered the height of their colonial days a 'golden age'. But as a modern man you have to see through the propaganda of your own cultural/national narrative.
The primary objection is the blackface caricature. The whole servants part is a smaller issue, since nothing in the story suggest Sinterklaas is employing any force to keep the Black Petes working for him. However one could argue that this exactly was a way to justify slavery, because these helpers just loved to serve their 'white' boss. Regardless if we change Pete into a etnicity neutral character we circumvent this whole problem.
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It doesn't matter how you look at it, but in it's current form Zwarte Piet is a colonial caricature of a Sub Saharan African.
That's probably because the whole thing, unlike here on GAF, wasn't an issue at all within the Netherlands until last year. People from other countries have always had problems with Zwarte Piet but it wasn't until 2013 that people from the Netherlands itself began seriously discussing the issue.
You've got to realise, and that is something most people simply can't understand, that if you live in the Netherlands Zwarte Piet generally isn't viewed as some blackface caricature of black people nor as a slave to a white man while that's the obvious first reaction a foreigner would have. Even if his depiction is racist don't forget that he is a very positive character. Most Dutch would have laughed if you told us five years ago that Zwarte Piet would be headline news and the biggest topic of discussion in the Netherlands today because you'd have a hard time finding anyone who deemed the character very offensive even among black skinned people. Of course, as a white person I'm not a credible source and I'm not saying there where none at all (obviously there were), but it certainly wasn't a majority and probably still isn't if you look past the vocal group of protesters (judging by the general reactions of the public on TV and the internet, alot of black skinned people used to not give a shit and think the whole discussion has been blown out of proportion. In fact, this guy even made a silly rap song about it).
But hey, even if a minority takes offense (and of course they have good reason to do so) that shouldn't be ignored so I think something like the picture below should satisfy both traditionalists and protesters.
That was ironic, if it wasn't obvious. It always bothers me how we Portuguese people glorify the age of discovery without contextualizing it with all the bad shit we did.
FFS, one of our national heroes is a super-villain in a Malasian film...
My stance within the discussion is based on the connotation, not the denotation. I fully agree that the denotation of Zwarte Piet is highly racially insensitive. I personally wouldn't say racist in the same sense that a book like Oki en Doki bij de Nikkers or the early versions of Kuifje in Afrika are racist, where the non-white natives are pictured as dumb, uncivilized and in Oki and Doki's case cannibalistic people. ZP's portrayal has never been quite that negative, but it's definitely kind of wrong if you purely look at how ZP looks. But when you look at the denotation you can't exclude the servant part from the equation, which is equally as wrong as the blackface part IMO.
I choose to look at how we actually see ZP though, we see something completely different. No kid and few parents have ever seen ZP as a racist caricature before this whole discussion started all those years ago. They are loving people that give children joy and candy and this whole discussion is completely irrelevant to any of this. I have no qualms with changing the look of Zwarte Piet, none at all. You can change the color whatever you want in my opinion, as long as it doesn't hurt the kids' enjoyment of the festival. Personally I think it's brilliant how Het Sinterklaasjounraal handled the narrative for the different colored Petes this year, just like it was brilliant how they handled it when Bram van der Vlugt quit and Kees Flodder took over.
But again, the anti-ZP group is mainly looking at ZP from a denotation perspective and IMO changing the color doesn't change the fact that from a pure objective standpoint the whole concept of ZP is still iffy. Simply changing the color isn't the answer, because you'd still have colored people working for free for a white man and people are still going to complain about this.
That's untrue, the ZPiR protests began in 2011. And even before that there was protest, but it was far more isolated. I guess it's testament to the power of social media, once again. But way before that there were already famous people voicing the problem on national television. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIc715Md_MU (Sorry it's in Dutch).
Yeah, I know it began earlier than 2013 but I'm just trying to say it wasn't really a major talking point in the Netherlands until that year. The anti Zwarte Piet movement in 2011 was very small and mostly ignored by media and people in general.
And that video is about people calling black skinned people Zwarte Piet that is racist, not Zwarte Piet itself being racist, there is a big difference. And it's from a time period when racism based on nothing but skin color was a way bigger issue than it is today in the Netherlands (Dutch racists mostly base their racism on nationality nowdays, not like that is an improvement but it is a different situation). Like I said earlier; racism doesn't stop just because you take a word away. That is a entirely different issue alltogether.
Yeah, I know it began earlier than 2013 but I'm just trying to say it wasn't really a major talking point in the Netherlands until that year. The anti Zwarte Piet movement in 2011 was very small and mostly ignored by media and people in general.
And that video is about people calling black skinned people Zwarte Piet that is racist, not Zwarte Piet itself being racist, there is a big difference. And it's from a time period when racism based on nothing but skin color was a way bigger issue than it is today in the Netherlands (Dutch racists mostly base their racism on nationality nowdays, not like that is an improvement but it is a different situation). Like I said earlier; racism doesn't stop just because you take a word away. That is a entirely different issue alltogether.
I would say ethnicity rather than nationality. If you have, say, Surinamese heritage, you're Surinamese to most Dutch people, now and forever, regardless of your passport. I'd also say racism continues to be a pretty large issue, especially given how pervasive it is.
I would say ethnicity rather than nationality. If you have, say, Surinamese heritage, you're Surinamese to most Dutch people, now and forever, regardless of your passport. I'd also say racism continues to be a pretty large issue, especially given how pervasive it is.
If you know Sesame Street then you understand that isn't the place to have a discussion about Zwarte Piet itself being a racist caricature. The point is the problem is old, people have been complaining. Some people complain about this element, others complain about that element. But fact of the matter is that it has always been problematic, and there have always been people suffering because of it.
This really annoys me. I'm half-Surinamese myself and people are always confused when I tell them my ethnicity because I look like an average caucasian male (people usually get that I'm not fully Dutch, but just assume for some reason that I'm from Italy or Spain). I have to tell them that not everyone with a Surinamese heritage looks the same. A former friend of mine even asked me once why I wasn't named Quincy or Dwight, I was like: "Seriously? That's fucking racist, man."Also most Surinamese and Antillian people will also be 'negers' first and foremost. I would go so far as to claim that to many Dutch people Surinamer is a synonym for 'neger' whilst in reality the Surinamese people consist of many different ethnicities themselves.
Internet has done it, making things offensive for people who never cared for it before. Well played america, reigniting hatred where there was none before only because you believed your point of view was the only one worth defending. This is just going to exacerbate racial relations, then add a sprinkle of economic crysis and you get europe back to nationalism.
People suffering under racism? Absolutely. People suffering under the current depiction of Zwarte Piet? Like I said (and once again, I'm white so blame me all you want for not being a credible source on this because I am not), the majority of black skinned people used to not take offense anyway since Zwarte Piet to most people is nothing but a silly and fun character who delivers presents to kids. It's a minority within a minority who mostly just have a problem with his appearance. They should, of course, be listened to since his portrayal is (or at least used to be) racist and undeniably has roots in an unfortunate history.
However, I don't agree with people who act like most of the non-white population has 'suffered' because of Sinterklaas for years and just now dare to speak about it. Especially children, who Sinterklaas is for to begin with, have never really had a problem with Zwarte Piet no matter what race they are. You take offense at Zwarte Piet and you suffer because of racism, but you don't suffer because Zwarte Piet is a thing (unless you say the character in its current form is completely racist and should dissapear, not just its appearence, but I wouldn't agree with that either).
This tradition will never end. We are too proud for that. Wilders will also make sure it won't go away.
Interesting, answer me this: why would you think I'm not?
Internet has done it, making things offensive for people who never cared for it before. Well played america, reigniting hatred where there was none before only because you believed your point of view was the only one worth defending. This is just going to exacerbate racial relations, then add a sprinkle of economic crysis and you get europe back to nationalism.
The thing is, this is a children's festival and not only is it that, most of those children fully believe that what they're seeing is 100% real. What do you think happens when you put a bunch of protesters that protest the thing that these kids believe right in the middle of this? People are gonna have a lot of awkward conversations with their kids.lol at the protest area in relation to the parade route and the event itself. hilarious.
this is the way protesting works folks. if you're not at the event itself making yourself heard, you might as well protest from home. the Arrested Development pic was apt, and funny.
It's not as easy as that. Sinterklaas is a multi-million euros business in The Netherlands that depends on kids believing in something. If every parent tells his/her kids that Sinterklaas isn't real and that Zwarte Piet is racist, the festivities will probably die or at least take a major hit.God forbid people have conversations with their kids about what's real and what's racist.
Look at it this way, what if Americans today decided that Santa was offensive and every parent in the US told their kids why Santa's bad and that they shouldn't enjoy Christmas because of it. Multiple companies would go bankrupt or at least lose a significant part of their income.
People suffering under racism? Absolutely. People suffering under the current depiction of Zwarte Piet? Like I said (and once again, I'm white so blame me all you want for not being a credible source on this because I am not), the majority of black skinned people used to not take offense anyway since Zwarte Piet to most people is nothing but a silly and fun character who delivers presents to kids. It's a minority within a minority who mostly just have a problem with his appearance. They should, of course, be listened to since his portrayal is (or at least used to be) racist and undeniably has roots in an unfortunate history.
However, I don't agree with people who act like most of the non-white population has 'suffered' because of Sinterklaas for years and just now dare to speak about it. Especially children, who Sinterklaas is for to begin with, have never really had a problem with Zwarte Piet no matter what race they are. You take offense at Zwarte Piet and you suffer because of racism, but you don't suffer because Zwarte Piet is a thing (unless you say the character in its current form is completely racist and should dissapear, not just its appearence, but I wouldn't agree with that either).
Internet has done it, making things offensive for people who never cared for it before. Well played america, reigniting hatred where there was none before only because you believed your point of view was the only one worth defending. This is just going to exacerbate racial relations, then add a sprinkle of economic crysis and you get europe back to nationalism.
Many people object to the presence of this racist caricature, regardless of their ethnic background. Many people want to make it an us vs. them, but in reality it isn't, at least not along ethnic lines. It's a colonialism aware vs. colonialism unaware problem
And who is to decide what the darker skinned populations in the Netherlands have actually endured? It's not like these people dominate the media or the public discourse. It's established that the grandchildren of Holocaust survivors still suffer the effects, I would argue that the decendents of the victims of colonialism and slavery also still suffer the effects. These things can be very subtle and nearly invisible, but internalized racism is an actual thing. Look noone is sobbing 24/7/365 because of the fact that Zwarte Piet is so painful, but regardless it's presence is very painful and very explicitly illustrates a cultural otherization process.
As a White person, I don't think you're entitled to determine what constitutes suffering from a racist caricature. Nor do your claim that the majority of Black people in the Netherlands aren't offended count as a valid source - unless you actually have valid statitistics on it? Otherwise you're just speaking from your own racially narrow experiences as a White person in a White supremacist society.
Of course my claims are based on nothing by my unreliable white people viewpoint, but unless there are actual valid statistics on the matter you can't claim the majority of dark skinned people are offended too. I was just trying to point out why, in my experience as someone who's seen Sinterklaas come and go many times and was born and raised here in the Netherlands, there hasn't been much of an outrage here before the whole anti-Zwarte Piet movement got alot of attention from the media last year.(and once again, I'm white so blame me all you want for not being a credible source on this because I am not)
Also you are incorrect about the children not having a problem, many children are harrassed during the celebrations even throughout the year.
Watch this video series https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnmT_pIyG74 and comment again on the matter.
Thing is that I could point you a similair video of dark skinned people stating they have no problem with Zwarte Piet and happily celebrate it with their kids who love it. These video's aren't very reliable because they're not trying to be objective on the matter.
lol at the protest area in relation to the parade route and the event itself. hilarious.
this is the way protesting works folks. if you're not at the event itself making yourself heard, you might as well protest from home. the Arrested Development pic was apt, and funny.
I'm having a hard time giving a fuck about the Netherlands' economy suffering from the loss of a racist tradition.
This is a really constructive attitude.
gives some insight into why it hasn't been until now that Zwarte Piet is changing.
It's interesting to see that the tone of discussion has changed in the yearly ZP thread. It seems that many Dutch people over here tend to have a less knee jerk reaction to the issue.
This is a really constructive attitude.
It's better than an attitude which believes the financial implications of removing racist imagery from a national holiday should at all be considered. If anything I find that more offensive than the Zwarte Piet itself.
I wonder what this will do for Wilders's popularity. I have a feeling it's a good thing that we won't be voting for another few months at least.
I think this year's Sinterklaas-parade already showed that it is possible to integrate different colors into the Zwarte Piet-spectrum without destroying the magic for kids and potentially harming the Holiday-income of the country. As I said in a previous post, the main source of Sinterklaas-news for kids (Het Sinterklaasjournaal) has expertly integrated the new colors into the existing narrative of Zwarte Piet. Give it a few years and the Zwarte Piet as it can be for many years has been succesfully changed without shoving adult discussions on race down kids' throats and potentially destroying a part of the economy.It's better than an attitude which believes the financial implications of removing racist imagery from a national holiday should at all be considered. If anything I find that more offensive than the Zwarte Piet itself.
Being originally from Belgium, the last time I commented on this matter I got banned. So yeah..
So yeah what? Comment on it or dont.
I think this year's Sinterklaas-parade already showed that it is possible to integrate different colors into the Zwarte Piet-spectrum without destroying the magic for kids and potentially harming the Holiday-income of the country. As I said in a previous post, the main source of Sinterklaas-news for kids (Het Sinterklaasjournaal) has expertly integrated the new colors into the existing narrative of Zwarte Piet. Give it a few years and the Zwarte Piet as it can be for many years has been succesfully changed without shoving adult discussions on race down kids' throats and potentially destroying a part of the economy.
Also, these aren't pre-teens we're talking about here that know racism when they see it and choose to be a part of this, these are kids from one to seven/eight years old, all they care about is candy, presents and having fun.
It's not as easy as that. Sinterklaas is a multi-million euros business in The Netherlands that depends on kids believing in something. If every parent tells his/her kids that Sinterklaas isn't real and that Zwarte Piet is racist, the festivities will probably die or at least take a major hit.
Look at it this way, what if Americans today decided that Santa was offensive and every parent in the US told their kids why Santa's bad and that they shouldn't enjoy Christmas because of it. Multiple companies would go bankrupt or at least lose a significant part of their income.
It's not as easy as that. Sinterklaas is a multi-million euros business in The Netherlands that depends on kids believing in something. If every parent tells his/her kids that Sinterklaas isn't real and that Zwarte Piet is racist, the festivities will probably die or at least take a major hit.
Look at it this way, what if Americans today decided that Santa was offensive and every parent in the US told their kids why Santa's bad and that they shouldn't enjoy Christmas because of it. Multiple companies would go bankrupt or at least lose a significant part of their income.
Brainwash them when their young, that's a great idea. It's worked for many dictators over the time.
Ah great, you Godwin'ed the discussion. Nice. I'm out of here, this is impossible.
I think this year's Sinterklaas-parade already showed that it is possible to integrate different colors into the Zwarte Piet-spectrum without destroying the magic for kids and potentially harming the Holiday-income of the country. As I said in a previous post, the main source of Sinterklaas-news for kids (Het Sinterklaasjournaal) has expertly integrated the new colors into the existing narrative of Zwarte Piet. Give it a few years and the Zwarte Piet as it can be for many years has been succesfully changed without shoving adult discussions on race down kids' throats and potentially destroying a part of the economy.
Also, these aren't pre-teens we're talking about here that know racism when they see it and choose to be a part of this, these are kids from one to seven/eight years old, all they care about is candy, presents and having fun.