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'Zwarte Piet' Controversy Leads To 90 Arrests In Netherlands
- Thread starter maquiladora
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"80 years without issues."
- NOS: OM onderzoekt racistische reacties op selfie Oranje
[Context: Dutch football player makes selfie with his teammates and posted it on Facebook. People reply with "Team Monkey", "This the Dutch league?", Makes references to the people who were arrested in Gouda incident in the OP, reference to them being "Helper slaves" and more]
Yeah, people don't make the connection between Zwarte Piet and black people at all.
Seems like people rather stay clueless about this and try to justify it.
So where do the exaggerated red lips come from?
Doesn't this mean brown people in the Netherlands finally got to a point where they were comfortable standing up to racist traditions in that nation? Hell, all civil rights movements are new at some point.
I'm pretty sure that first one is a parody post.
Nappuccino
Member
Thank you for pointing out the fact that some people feel it is racist when that is the point of the article. I'm more curious if it actually is racist, which I know is something more difficult to assess. Especially when I'm still not sure what the point of the celebration / event is at all.
"80 years without issues."
- NOS: OM onderzoekt racistische reacties op selfie Oranje
[Context: Dutch football player makes selfie with his teammates and posted it on Facebook. People reply with "Team Monkey", "This the Dutch league?", Makes references to the people who were arrested in Gouda incident in the OP, reference to them being "Helper slaves" and more]
Yeah, people don't make the connection between Zwarte Piet and black people at all.
Seems like people rather stay clueless about this and try to justify it.
As someone who likes the Dutch team, this is really really sad.
Zwarte Piet being gone won't solve all the issues, but its time for it to be gone.
kurisu1974
Banned
I'm cool if you get to know me, that part wasn't to be taken seriously...
See me as a jester of truth.
Maybe I'm ignorant on what the Zwarte Piet thing is about. But what racial stereotypes does it perpetuate?
HarryHengst
Member
I, too, wonder every day why i see women wearing exaggerated red lips.
I am not sure. But untill two years ago nobody here gave a single fuck about that either.
Prophet Steve
Member
People were allowed to protest next to a part of the route of the parade before it started in Amsterdam on a well-known spot.
In Gouda there has been a location next to the station, but apparently not the location that protesters wanted and they marched to somewhere else anyway.
I don't feel they got bad locations, I don't feel that happens too much in The Netherlands anyway, but I'm open to disagreement.
Great post.
As a recent immigrant (4 years) to the NL I'm shocked by how smart people try to rationalize a racist tradition.
There aren't any. Ignorant people will still claim otherwise though.
kurisu1974
Banned
What I wonder here, is if this would have played out the same if there wasn't such a shitstorm over Zwarte Piet at the same time.
And even then I find this strawman-ish.
Added to the fact that the Black Pete thing is essentially an exaggerated description of a 'servant' for Santa.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
Got to love the implication that, because they didn't protest 80 years ago, black people must have been fine with it then. Oh, to be a Negro in the early 20th century, so carefree.
Or maybe folks just became comfortable enough to speak out about it two years ago?
I thought they were portraying "Black Pete." And it seems to be part of the costume, unless every Dutch woman wears garish red lipstick all of the time and it's just a coincidence.
The defining feature of the tradition's figures is 'soot covered faces', much like how Santa is seen as fat with a white beard, It isn't 'blackface' as the tradition or characters have nothing to do with representing or mocking black people.
Maybe they did but felt they would not have been taken seriously because Western Europe is a white supremacy.
This is what happened last year:
http://www.iamexpat.nl/read-and-dis...s-investigates-zwarte-piet-racism-netherlands
Even the United Nations got involved with it....
http://www.iamexpat.nl/read-and-dis...s-investigates-zwarte-piet-racism-netherlands
Even the United Nations got involved with it....
Why are they wearing afros too then?
PjotrStroganov
Member
At least you are contributing to the discussion.
Angelus Errare
Banned
"There were many black people who were fine with X happening to them, therefore...not a problem."
Sound logic.
Sound logic.
Isn't the soot covered thing a complete retcon and it was absolutely intended to represent a black person?
I'm not on the up up when it comes to minstrel shows either. But from my limited knowledge, the would portray blacks as dumb, clumsy buffoons that would do "black things". Does Zwarte Piet do something similar?
Those were the so-called 'Cheese Petes' because Gouda is known for their cheese. It's pretty stupid.
They should've just stuck with 'Zwarte Pieten', perhaps it once started as a throwback to slavery or something like that, but it hasn't been that way for decades (though I was always told they were based on the Moors, with them coming from Spain and all). They're just there to entertain the kids with their silly antics these days.
Souldriver
Member
Especially for Americans this must be so blatantly obviously racism, it's kinda embarrassing for people who are aware of international sensitivities, yet their own country is completely oblivious (like me, I'm Belgian).
The vast majority of dutch/belgian people simply don't see the skin color as an issue. I'd say that makes it more ignorant than racist. I as well just grew up with the idea of an old fart in a saints suit coming once a year to give presents to children, helped by a bunch of black guys in weird outfits entertaining the kids and giving out candy. I think, hope, that this tradition hasn't affected my attitude or underlying feelings towards black people. Hell, there is this popular tv show about Sinterklaas and Piet where Sinterklaas is basically a grumpy, childish, senile man, whereas Piet is lively, lovely, has a sense of humor, is smart, ...
But still, if you take a look back at the tradition, I mean...come on. It's racist as fuck. Old man with black helpers. Just change the damn tradition already: give the Pieten all colors of the rainbow for all I care, or just don't paint the faces, but just change it already because the racist aspect is clear, and it's upsetting quite a lot of people.
The Sinterklaas tradition has been changed a lot throughout the decades anyway. It's always happened organically/spontaneous. It's just that now some people want to force a change (rightfully so), that there's a vocal opposition against it (not surprisingly).
The vast majority of dutch/belgian people simply don't see the skin color as an issue. I'd say that makes it more ignorant than racist. I as well just grew up with the idea of an old fart in a saints suit coming once a year to give presents to children, helped by a bunch of black guys in weird outfits entertaining the kids and giving out candy. I think, hope, that this tradition hasn't affected my attitude or underlying feelings towards black people. Hell, there is this popular tv show about Sinterklaas and Piet where Sinterklaas is basically a grumpy, childish, senile man, whereas Piet is lively, lovely, has a sense of humor, is smart, ...
But still, if you take a look back at the tradition, I mean...come on. It's racist as fuck. Old man with black helpers. Just change the damn tradition already: give the Pieten all colors of the rainbow for all I care, or just don't paint the faces, but just change it already because the racist aspect is clear, and it's upsetting quite a lot of people.
The Sinterklaas tradition has been changed a lot throughout the decades anyway. It's always happened organically/spontaneous. It's just that now some people want to force a change (rightfully so), that there's a vocal opposition against it (not surprisingly).
No really that's just wrong. It's never have been or ever will be a white supremacy. I don't want to get down that road.
Dutch people (most of them) can't look into the mirror when it comes to the association between racism and Zwarte Piet.
American people (most of them) can't look into the mirror when it comes to the association between violence and guns.
I guess if something's part of your culture it makes you blind to the way other people look at it.
Also:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBLBxb29maw
American people (most of them) can't look into the mirror when it comes to the association between violence and guns.
I guess if something's part of your culture it makes you blind to the way other people look at it.
Also:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBLBxb29maw
Why do they paint themselves fully brown with red lips then? Why not something like this? The woman in the picture is an actual chimneysweeper. How come she didn't become fully brown with red lips while working?
"80 years without issues."
- NOS: OM onderzoekt racistische reacties op selfie Oranje
[Context: Dutch football player makes selfie with his teammates and posted it on Facebook. People reply with "Team Monkey", "This the Dutch league?", Makes references to the people who were arrested in Gouda incident in the OP, reference to them being "Helper slaves" and more]
Yeah, people don't make the connection between Zwarte Piet and black people at all.
Seems like people rather stay clueless about this and try to justify it.
We, like, hate racism but we call black footballers monkeys... and that's cool.
Every Zwarte thread makes it obvious that, just like the same posters defending it, its a bunch of people resisting a positive chance in society because they think it will create a
slippery slope which will end up affecting their positions in society.
So yeah what? Comment on it or dont.
slippery slope which will end up affecting their positions in society.
So yeah what? Comment on it or dont.
What.
Even if the Zwarte Piet incident didnt happen, why would it be justifiable to call them out because of the color of their skin? What century do we live in?
Guys it's just a shirt...err, I mean makeup. This meaning you're assigning to an inanimate object is, frankly, horrifying. These people aren't intending to offend anyone, and I even heard some of those participating were given the ok by their black friend. So how can it be racist? The whole racism thing is over anyway. We have black people in positions of power and we even sometimes let them vote. So it's not even a problem to begin with.
And whats next, telling women they can't wear concealer? Eyeshadow? Where does your aimless conquest for a makeup free society end but with the destruction of freedom? Frightening and unacceptable.
So I just wish you whining babies could stop crucifying these poor people and ruining their fun with your ridiculous complaints about something so simple as a shi...I mean makeup.
And whats next, telling women they can't wear concealer? Eyeshadow? Where does your aimless conquest for a makeup free society end but with the destruction of freedom? Frightening and unacceptable.
So I just wish you whining babies could stop crucifying these poor people and ruining their fun with your ridiculous complaints about something so simple as a shi...I mean makeup.
SliceSabre
Banned
Every single last one of those people wearing that blackface are absolutely disgusting, racist and abhorrent humans. How could you think its ok?
Prophet Steve
Member
I have no problem with them protesting. But don't protest in the middle of the festivity unless you want kids to be your target audience.
Now, obviously you are getting more exposure this way, like what happens now, but I feel you can still get exposure if you do it on a well-known place where there is not a festivity right this moment.
Ingueferroque
Banned
Your pitchfork is burning, might want to put that down so we can have a conversation.
I believe it has something to do with Minstrel shows. The red lips were part of the stage makeup, similar to a clowns. It went well with how they were trying to portray black people as foolish and joke characters, like a clown or jester.
Obviously, black people take offense to white people using their race as a joke. Which is part of why blackface is considered racist and probably part of why it is being protested in this situation. It is an offensive, ignorant caricature.
When I talk to people who aren't opposed to zwarte piet, the main argument is always that it's a tradition, so we should just keep doing it. I mean I (sort of) get that people used to do it back when they didn't realise that it could be percieved as racist, but it has to end sometime, so why not just end it now? The longer we wait, the worse it's going to look to the rest of the world.
If you wait until the kids are adults it becomes infinitely harder to tell them why this is wrong. The kids have to know NOW this isn't acceptable.
Nappuccino
Member
Yeah . . . that's not super great. I guess it sounds like they're trying to ret-con it, but they should make the make up more obviously soot. Sure, it won't look as clean / stylish, but it'll get away from the racist overtones.
Veritigo_X
Member
Soot is usually black, not brown, and doesn't cause your lips to turn bright red...
If they are actually trying to convey that, they should be shooting for something that looks more like this:
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