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[genjiZERO]

Well, a little more diversity then. It's really strange they decided to portray him as black. Thanks for the essay.
Don't the majority of persian have a darker skin though?

Apparently they changed the the wise men to represent the three continents. So there is an African, European, and "Asian" one (Asian here means Middle Eastern not East Asian like we use it today). Probably because Christianity had long been the state religion and they wanted to express the universality of it.

Persians (Iranians) generally have olive complexions. There is an inside joke that they like to be confused with Italians. All the Persians I know consider themselves white.

 

[Bravocado]

Who, this guy?

I don't see it.

 

[Ovid]

I could have sworn we had this exact same topic less than a week ago.

Just ditch the red lips and afro. If Zwarte Piet is supposed to just be a soot covered person, make him actually look like one.

We did but this thread is about the Dutch courts finally acknowledging that the imagery is offensive.

 

[TatteredHat]

We did but this thread is about the Dutch courts finally acknowledging that the imagery is offensive.

Well, hopefully we'll see some progress towards a less offensive reimagining of the Zwarte Piet character this year then.

 

[Ovid]

As a Dutch (Caucasian, but that should not matter) i am very pleased with the decision. They never had to completely remove it, just change it. Instead of "Black Pete", why not just "Pete"? When people talk about traditions they don't realize it's no longer a holiday for the children, but for them, their memories. Children adept very easy. We can absolutely keep the holiday, just the Pete has to change. The earrings, afro, evenly black painted face and red lips need to go. And he was absolutely, no doubt possible, born out of racism, or at least created when racism was the norm. Children just like all the bells and whistles, the mood, the music, the candy, the presents. If it's going to change then we should keep that, shed it in a positive light and not claim it, but let it stay a holiday for children. I'm afraid there will always be parties that do claim it for their political agenda (like Wilders), that's probably unavoidable.

All it will take is one generation of kids to grow up with the updated version and all of this "tradition" crap will be forgotten.

No one will care about the old version anymore.

 

[EloquentM]

Is society as a whole maybe becoming a tad over-sensitive? Has this been discussed ever in the last decade? Redskins, Zwarte Piet, Mr. Popo... admittedly I'm a white male, but to me it's a whole circus about super trivial stuff. Those people that complain, might they have another issue maybe?

Making Popo blue? That's offensive to the artist! And do we want all Tintin album's redrawn too?

I'm a very liberal, anti-racist guy for those that might get another idea. I just think freedom of expression and speech and art goes above offended individuals that rile up media and society.

This is a joke right?

 

[Osahi]

Is this true? I mean, if so, is this not pretty damning?

It is. He was borne out of racism, no doubt about it. And no need to deny it. The beating thing is still in some songs. But the character evolved. No need to damn the holiday for it's historical context. Times change,and in a historic context that kind of racism was usual. Nowadays, that backstory is completely gonr

Not a child sees pete as a negro now. There are no racist motives behind the character anymore (I'm 27 and never saw him as a black man. I always believed he was black from soot). That's why manu dutch and belgians can't see the problem. They never looked at pete as negro.

It's not a racist holiday, and definitaly not the holiday from hell some of uoy condamn it to, but the imagery has to change and modernize.

 

[PBY]

It is. He was borne out of racism, no doubt about it. And no need to deny it. The beating thing is still in some songs. But the character evolved. No need to damn the holiday for it's historical context. Times change,and in a historic context that kind of racism was usual. Nowadays, that backstory is completely gonr

Not a child sees pete as a negro now. There are no racist motives behind the character anymore (I'm 27 and never saw him as a black man. I always believed he was black from soot). That's why manu dutch and belgians can't see the problem. They never looked at pete as negro.

It's not a racist holiday, and definitaly not the holiday from hell some of uoy condamn it to, but the imagery has to change and modernize.

I guess. Still feels weird to keep a holiday born out of racism.

 

[akira28]

I never knew the Nile flowed northward, but when you think about it and look at a map it kind of figures.

To some people intent is everything. They defended the imagery up and down and swore there was nothing racist about anything. Everyone loves Piet. I wish there was a tv show.

 

[Tragicomedy]

What a big load of bullshit.

Fucking hell, there's nothing even remotely racist about it. I hope we Belgians don't follow that decision. Zwarte Piet is black from soot or is a black man.. is it even important? Zwarte Piet is never portrayed as a slave, but rather as a (usually smart) assistant. I know almost no one who thinks it's racist.

What's next? Sinterklaas (our and the original version of Santa) may not wear a cross on his mitre? O wait...

Good way to destroy a traditional festivity and make it even more fabricated and commercial. Also WTF to the guys who're saying it should be modernised, it's called TRADITION...

I get really mad about this, it's a huge part of my childhood and that of many other inhabitants of Belgium and the Netherlands.

Of course not. You're missing the point. There are always people offended, gaming is a good example. But the imagery is in my opinion not racist. What's racist about an afro for god's sake? Even our footballers/football fans wear it.

Your uneducated opinion is wrong, and exactly why this needs to change.

 

[soepje]

I guess. Still feels weird to keep a holiday born out of racism.

Eum, the whole celebration of Santa during Christmas comes from Sinterklaas though. Just saying.

 

[Osahi]

I guess. Still feels weird to keep a holiday born out of racism.

The pete character was (well, he's a form of the evil character who acompanies sinterklaas, who has different forms in different counties. I might have mistaken the "eats children" part with one of those), not the holiday.

Sinterklaas didn't have a helper originally (prior 1850)

 

[TatteredHat]

I guess. Still feels weird to keep a holiday born out of racism.

The Sinterklaasfeest has been around since the Middle Ages, to celebrate the naming day of Saint Nicolas. I'm not sure how long the Zwarte Piet part of it has been around, but the celebration itself certainly wasn't born out of racism.

 

[akira28]

Eum, the whole celebration of Santa during Christmas comes from Sinterklaas though. Just saying.

lies.

 

[soepje]

lies.

Even wikipedia says i´m right

The modern figure of Santa Claus is derived from the Dutch figure of Sinterklaas, which, in turn, has part of its basis in hagiographical tales concerning the historical figure of Christian bishop and gift-giver Saint Nicholas.

Pre-modern representations of the gift-giver from church history and folklore, notably St Nicholas and Sinterklaas, merged with the English character Father Christmas to create the character known to Americans and the rest of the English-speaking world as Santa Claus.

In the English and later British colonies of North America, and later in the United States, British and Dutch versions of the gift-giver merged further. For example, in Washington Irving's History of New York (1809), Sinterklaas was Americanized into "Santa Claus" (a name first used in the American press in 1773)[23] but lost his bishop's apparel, and was at first pictured as a thick-bellied Dutch sailor with a pipe in a green winter coat.

.. not that it has much to do with the issue at hand though, there is still a problem with zwarte piet.

 

[UrbanRats]

So we ignore the fact that people lived with these prejudices and used them in art and entertainment? Let's retcon history and censor what we today don't like?

I don't think that's a fair comparison.

A more fair comparison would be to demand from Spielberg to use those racist depictions in modern TinTin movies, which would be absolutely insane, as you can imagine.
--
Cultures change and evolve, so do traditions, arguing otherwise is foolish.

I do think it'll take time to convince people of it, mostly because (extremists aside) i think for most people is different to digest the fact that an important element of their childhood was so racist, without making them themselves inherently racist people.
I think most people can understand this logically, but have still a difficulty to assimilate the concept on a more emotional level, due to sense of guilt which automatically triggers a defensive position.

The premise is really simple, the tradition is outdated and nocive to a part of the population, and needs to change.
The process of changing it through conversion of people's positions, however, is more delicate.

 

[Kraftwerk]

I am just going to quote myself from the blackface thread two days ago, since the same arguments are being made here...

Preface : Not comparing the two, just an personal story. The posts that talk about how they didn't know it was racist until this thread and whatnot reminded me of it.

Anyway...

I grew up in the middle-east. One thing that I would hear a lot was people shitting on the Jewish people. Literally blaming every problem on them, calling them the 'cursed-people' and using Jew as an extremely offensive slang.

I did this too.

We were kids playing outside, and asked one of our friends to get coca-cola for us since it was hot. He told us to fuck off and we can get it ourselves, and he isn't buying. I remember calling him "you fucking Jew"

I grew up, and I educated myself about these matters, and felt like shit about all I did. I told my friend to not say that when I heard them use it in a derogatory way, and they would call me "Jew-lover" sometimes.

What I am trying to say is, there are posts in this thread, that went through what I went through. Grew up in a culture that celebrates Zwarte Piet without questioning it, at least the majority don't.

These folk grew up in this culture, and even after being educated by others, and having people who were persecuted share their struggles and stories; they just go "it's my culture...what's racist in america isn't racist here.

They keep using the same excuse over...and over.

Nobody is here to take over your culture or destroy it. To be so stubborn and not change your stance that offends countless people is just baffling. Especially from people who claim they are open-minded.

It's as if I waltz in here, and when someone make a tipping thread I just post how "you are all fucking jews". Then people try to educate me, and I just post "This is my culture, this is where I grew up. We use it as a joke, its not a bad term like in America"

I will also add;

I used to live in Iran. And during new years you had people dress up as Haji Firuz. I used to laugh at it..and actually think it was funny. Did not see anything wrong with it. He was always a joke character and would sing and act really quirky.

Now that I look back at it, I cringe at myself. It was, and stil is so fucking wrong. Here is the rhyme that he sings to cheer others up i.e his master.

My master, hold your head up high,
My master, look at yourself,
My master, the billy goat!
My master, why don’t you laugh?

 

[genjiZERO]

I will also add;

I used to live in Iran. And during new years you had people dress up as Haji Firuz. I used to laugh at it..and actually think it was funny. Did not see anything wrong with it. He was always a joke character and would sing and act really quirky.

Now that I look back at it, I cringe at myself. It was, and stil is so fucking wrong. Here is the rhyme that he sings to cheer others up i.e his master.

Doing a bit of research on it it doesn't look like Haji Firuz is supposed to be a depiction of an African or dark skinned person - he just has literal black skin (so in a way he might be like Krishna in Hinduism who is also literally black). Also, he is thought to be a relic of ancient times when people would paint themselves black and wear black masks in Zoroastrian riruals (he may also derive ultimately from a death myth).

 

[Kraftwerk]

Doing a bit of research on it it doesn't look like Haji Firuz is supposed to be a depiction of an African or dark skinned person - he just has literal black skin (so in a way he might be like Krishna in Hinduism who is also literally black). Also, he is thought to be a relic of ancient times when people would paint themselves black and wear black masks in Zoroastrian riruals (he may also derive ultimately from a death myth).

There is still debate regarding that. Plus, when you sing songs like the one I posted and paint yourself black with big red lips, it doesn't help your cause.

 

[genjiZERO]

There is still debate regarding that. Plus, when you sing songs like the one I posted and paint yourself black with big red lips, it doesn't help your cause.

Yeah I'm sure there is, and in contemporary times I see why it's rapidly becoming taboo. What I posted is just what Wikipedia said about it.

 

[Slayven]

Who, this guy?

I don't see it.

He is a dog.

 

[Nokterian]

Well as a dutch i do not agree with this the slightest. You cannot change it, it's something bittersweet and i grew up with it as a kid. This whole racism thing is just mindboggeling how people are thinking these days and saying it's ok to change it. You simply can't it will never change it's for kids how the hell should they know outside of all this bullcrap what is happening at the moment.

 

[Antagon]

Well as a dutch i do not agree with this the slightest. You cannot change it, it's something bittersweet and i grew up with it as a kid. This whole racism thing is just mindboggeling how people are thinking these days and saying it's ok to change it. You simply can't it will never change it's for kids how the hell should they know outside of all this bullcrap what is happening at the moment.

And here we go again...

 

[akira28]

Well as a dutch i do not agree with this the slightest. You cannot change it, it's something bittersweet and i grew up with it as a kid. This whole racism thing is just mindboggeling how people are thinking these days and saying it's ok to change it. You simply can't it will never change it's for kids how the hell should they know outside of all this bullcrap what is happening at the moment.

welcome you're 5 pages late.
didn't you get email notification?

 

[Kraftwerk]

Well as a dutch i do not agree with this the slightest. You cannot change it, it's something bittersweet and i grew up with it as a kid. This whole racism thing is just mindboggeling how people are thinking these days and saying it's ok to change it. You simply can't it will never change it's for kids how the hell should they know outside of all this bullcrap what is happening at the moment.

 

[Lebron]

Well as a dutch i do not agree with this the slightest. You cannot change it, it's something bittersweet and i grew up with it as a kid. This whole racism thing is just mindboggeling how people are thinking these days and saying it's ok to change it. You simply can't it will never change it's for kids how the hell should they know outside of all this bullcrap what is happening at the moment.

WILL SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!

 

[Nexas]

Well as a dutch i do not agree with this the slightest. You cannot change it, it's something bittersweet and i grew up with it as a kid. This whole racism thing is just mindboggeling how people are thinking these days and saying it's ok to change it. You simply can't it will never change it's for kids how the hell should they know outside of all this bullcrap what is happening at the moment.

There have been several posts explaining why Zwarte Piet is racially insensitive, but even putting those concerns aside- Why can't it be changed? Tradition? Do you think the holiday you celebrated as a kid remains completely unchanged from 50 years ago? 100 years? 200? Traditions are constantly changing over time. The "tradition" you are trying to preserve probably bares little resemblance to what it originally was.

 

[richiek]

He is a dog.

No, he's a cat.

 

[shacklesmcgee]

Well as a dutch i do not agree with this the slightest. You cannot change it, it's something bittersweet and i grew up with it as a kid. This whole racism thing is just mindboggeling how people are thinking these days and saying it's ok to change it. You simply can't it will never change it's for kids how the hell should they know outside of all this bullcrap what is happening at the moment.

Please do at least some light reading before you go off...for a sacred tradition that can't be changed, it sure has changed a lot. Also, can you at least admit that putting blackface, gold earrings, an afro and big red lips on anything not named Zwarte Piet is racist?

 

[fader]

He is a dog.

yea hes a cat, goofy is the dog

 

[NYCmetsfan]

No, he's a cat.

:-0 My world will never be the same

There have been several posts explaining why Zwarte Piet is racially insensitive, but even putting those concerns aside- Why can't it be changed? Tradition? Do you think the holiday you celebrated as a kid remains completely unchanged from 50 years ago? 100 years? 200? Traditions are constantly changing over time. The "tradition" you are trying to preserve probably bares little resemblance to what it originally was.

He grew up with it as a kid, thus you can't change it. At least I think that's the logic?

 

[Deleted member 13876]

Belgian here. I will admit I didn't see that many problems with the character up until a few years back, but I've since been persuaded of the contrary. Growing up with the character and generally not having that much exposure to people from other cultures easily lets you think they are also very much okay with the tradition. That said, learning more about the history of black face in the US and hearing how the character already was changed a bunch of times over the course of its history made it evident to me a character reboot would be the preferred route to take.

I'm a big fan of comics and characters get retooled their all the time. Recently there was the thing where Spider-Man was replaced by Dr. Octopus. A drastic change. Most people were pissed when the change happened, but while it has since been undone, a lot of people got to love the change. Some even started preferring the new Spider-Man over the old one. My point is people adapt to change. Kids especially. It's mostly grown ups who are pissed they're threatening to change something they grew up with.

I also get some of the reactionary responses. Especially when a whole country is being called racist, people tend to dig in their heels and strengthen their currently held belief. Seeing how adamantly people respond to criticism on the character I doubt anything meaningful is going to change the next two or three years. But I do believe in the long term something may change.

Tradition, lore and whatnot...In the end it's all a bunch of made up stuff and some of that stuff is offensive to a number of people. The soot story is fun and all, but if you think about it more than two seconds, the complete black face, red lips and curly hair are not logical results of the chimney diving and could easily be excluded or retooled.

Despite an earlier person claiming there is no debate on it in Belgium, I would like to dispute that. A large majority is on one side of the issue yes, but there is a debate and here's a good Dutch article outlining some of the history of the character and its evolution:

http://www.dewereldmorgen.be/artike...lksempfinden-de-zwarte-piet-controverse-doorg

Fact is, most of this generation knows the character best from a children's show called Dag Sinterklaas, which ironically also rebooted the character a lot, but those (mostly positive) changes are now seen as "canon". The character was a lot more slavish in the past as this older illustration shows:

 

[Tragicomedy]

Guys, racism is part of our cultural heritage so it can't be changed. Think of the damn children!!!

 

[Fusebox]

Pete was such a hard worker, it's so sad the Americans want to white-wash him like a Hollywood remake.

 

[Discotheque]

He is a dog.

They're dogs? I thought goofy was an anorexic bear

 

[3bdelilah]

Ik hoor je wel maar ik zie je nieeeeet. Teringgg, haha

translation: I can hear you, but I can't see you (because he's black and it's dark)

If that ain't racist, I don't know what is. But I feel genuinely sad for Dutch people, I feel Dutch myself, but they don't have any culture whatsoever any more if this Sinterklaas thing goes away. That's the main reason there are still people defending this, saying it's "tradition". Their whole wooden shoe culture is a thing of the past as well.

 

[Fergie]

Wrong thread.

 

[Fusebox]

Neymar is out of the WC after fracturing a rib, according to Brazillian SportTV.

Goddamn it Black Pete supporters now look what you've done!

 

[SimpleGamer]

Well as a dutch i do not agree with this the slightest. You cannot change it, it's something bittersweet and i grew up with it as a kid. This whole racism thing is just mindboggeling how people are thinking these days and saying it's ok to change it. You simply can't it will never change it's for kids how the hell should they know outside of all this bullcrap what is happening at the moment.

Don't be scared, Change is coming!

 

[3bdelilah]

Well as a dutch i do not agree with this the slightest. You cannot change it, it's something bittersweet and i grew up with it as a kid. This whole racism thing is just mindboggeling how people are thinking these days and saying it's ok to change it. You simply can't it will never change it's for kids how the hell should they know outside of all this bullcrap what is happening at the moment.

Kom op, man. Nostalgie en traditie is een ding, maar dit is gewoon geboren uit hardcore racisme, hoe je het wendt of keert. Natuurlijk is de intentie nu niet om zwarten te beledigen, maar dat maakt het niet minder racistisch.

Ik vind het wel raar dat deze discussie nu pas op gang is gekomen, je hoeft geen IQ van 150 te hebben om te zien dat dit gewoon echt niet kan.

 

[Deleted member 13876]

Don't be scared, Change is coming!

The biggest strike against that statement is the character has already been changed several times over the course of history.

 

[3bdelilah]

The biggest strike against that statement is the character has already been changed several times over the course of history.

How have they changed it in the past? I've grown up only knowing this current Black Pete

 

[Kusagari]

Well as a dutch i do not agree with this the slightest. You cannot change it, it's something bittersweet and i grew up with it as a kid. This whole racism thing is just mindboggeling how people are thinking these days and saying it's ok to change it. You simply can't it will never change it's for kids how the hell should they know outside of all this bullcrap what is happening at the moment.

It's bizarre how defensive some Dutch on this forum get about this. It's not even like the Pete character has to be erased. He can just be Pete instead of looking like a black caricature.

Tradition is such a terrible reason to keep something offensive to others.

 

[Fusebox]

"What is the problem with Michael Jackson?"

 

[Deleted member 13876]

How have they changed it in the past? I've grown up only knowing this current Black Pete

The article I linked in the long post covers the evolution. Here's some relevant quotes:

Diegenen die Piet willen dekoloniseren en laten evolueren, zien zijn oorsprong in het het prent- en gedichtenboekje van Jan Schenkman, St. Nikolaas en zijn knecht (1850). De tijd waarin dit verscheen was een periode waarin slavernij wereldwijd bedreven werd, vaak ook clandestien. Hoewel de rol van Nederland in de slavernij tegen 1850 grotendeels uitgespeeld was, verscheepte het land tussen de 17de en 19de eeuw ten minste een half miljoen slaven van Afrika naar hoofdzakelijk Suriname en Curaçao, zoals Johannes Menne Postma in The Dutch in the Slave Trade beschrijft.

Deze eeuwenlange slavernij creëerde een cultuur die zijn sporen naliet in Schenkmans boekje, aldus de criticasters van Zwarte Piet. Daarin duikt voor het eerst een 'knechtje' op van Sinterklaas, die 'zwart is als kleur'. Deze zwarte figuur draagt de geldkist van Sinterklaas en gooit appelen door de schoorsteen, maar glijdt er zelf niet door.

Dat hij zwart van het roet is, werd later aan het verhaal van Piet toegevoegd en creëert tot vandaag een spanning met de rest van zijn uiterlijk en kledij.

De evolutie van Zwarte Piet in Schenkmans boekje spreekt een duidelijke taal over waar de zwarte figuur toenemend voor moest staan.

Door de edities heen wordt de knecht steeds meer een aanhangsel, steeds onderdaniger en dommer. In 1850 rijdt Piet in één prentje nog op de daken met Sinterklaas. Tegen 1907 echter, de hoogdagen van het imperialisme en kolonialisme, loopt hij te voet naast de schimmel van Sinterklaas en wordt hij hoofdzakelijk diens lastendrager met een vertrokken, belachelijke gezichtsuitdrukking.

De evolutie van Zwarte Piet, kortom, is sterk koloniaal gemarkeerd. Tot op de dag van vandaag, aldus de voorstanders van een evoluerende Piet, is de onderliggende, structurele ongelijkheid tussen Piet en Sinterklaas nauwelijks te overzien, het schoorsteenverhaal ten spijt.

Summary: Since his inception in 1850 Piet actually changed for the worse during the colonial times, as evidenced by several illustrations in the early 1900s. Our current interpretation of the character is heavily based on the 90s tv show Dag Sinterklaas. I believe it introduced the story about the soot even, or at least heavily popularized the notion.

Basically the character has been evolving through whatever media's depictions much like Santa Claus, who's based on SInterklaas, got a lot of his current traits courtesy of Coca Cola's usage of him in their marketing campaigns.

Nowadays they still make Sinterklaas movies. A new generation of kids is growing up with those movies. Stuff still gets thrown at the wall, if it's popular some of the new elements in those movies could easily stick and become new "lore" and people a decade from now could easily think those things have always been a part of the character. It's the way these things work. Like I said, the soot origin is something everyone now agrees is an essential part of the character, but apparently it's a relatively recent addition to the story. Whereas other elements like Piet being a sort of enforcer who punishes bad children with a birch rod have been de-emphasized since the 80s.

 

[pinkurocket]

I'm from Belgium, we also celebrate Sinterklaas with the same characters. However thanks to an ingenious TV show, they managed to erase the racist connotation and they teach kids that the 'workers' are black because they go through dirty chimneys to deliver the gifts.

All though that also leads to some ignorance with kids thinking black people are all dirty chimney dwellers or something. And that everyone is 'white' below the tan..... Anywho, I really think the tradition needs to change. It is fundamentally offensive and in this day and age when everything is evolving, so should our good man Sinterklaas.

Dutch people in this thread that want to hold on to the tradition are no better or worse than people that think marriage should only be between a man and a woman. Traditions are outdated.

 

[Angelus Errare]

Well as a dutch i do not agree with this the slightest. You cannot change it, it's something bittersweet and i grew up with it as a kid. This whole racism thing is just mindboggeling how people are thinking these days and saying it's ok to change it. You simply can't it will never change it's for kids how the hell should they know outside of all this bullcrap what is happening at the moment.

I've read this 9 times, and have laughed equally hard each time.

 

[Dead Man]

I have a lot of sympathy for the view that it needs to change in some way. But these posts saying there should be no debate, and the smug bullshit from people outside the countries in question don't convince anyone. Human psychology means that every time you have a smug reply telling Dutch people what hey should do, less of them are likely to do it.

Nobody enjoys being dictated to by outsiders.

 

[Deleted member 13876]

I'm from Belgium, we also celebrate Sinterklaas with the same characters. However thanks to an ingenious TV show, they managed to erase the racist connotation and they teach kids that the 'workers' are black because they go through dirty chimneys to deliver the gifts.

All though that also leads to some ignorance with kids thinking black people are all dirty chimney dwellers or something. And that everyone is 'white' below the tan..... Anywho, I really think the tradition needs to change. It is fundamentally offensive and in this day and age when everything is evolving, so should our good man Sinterklaas.

Dutch people in this thread that want to hold on to the tradition are no better or worse than people that think marriage should only be between a man and a woman. Traditions are outdated.

That show is from the early 90s, but people today think elements from it are part of a century old tradition. In fact, it shows the character has already been tinkered with to make it more appropriate and people readily accepted those changes.

New media portrayals could in theory revamp the character, but I fear the issue has become so polarizing that people will resist those changes and tell their kids they're not watching the "real Zwarte Piet" or whatever. It seems to be a matter of pride for a lot of people here. The UN declaring the character racist while stating some falsehoods about the character didn't go over all too well.

I have a lot of sympathy for the view that it needs to change in some way. But these posts saying there should be no debate, and the smug bullshit from people outside the countries in question don't convince anyone. Human psychology means that every time you have a smug reply telling Dutch people what hey should do, less of them are likely to do it.

Nobody enjoys being dictated to by outsiders.

Yeah, this is exactly what I'm talking about with the UN thing. One of the psychological effects behind this is the Backfire Effect. Classic historical examples of it are people swearing "Wellfare Queens" were a huge issue when confronted with the fact there was no documented proof of Reagan's notorious example of one such woman.

Some interesting articles about it:

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2010/07/11/how_facts_backfire/?page=1
http://www.skepdic.com/backfireeffect.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/14/AR2008091402375_pf.html

 

[Akainu]

He is a dog.

Isn't he supposed to be a cat?