Raven Prime
Member
How many blatant racist traditions are left anyway? And even more so one's that have become so interwoven with a national celebration/children's festival?
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'Zwarte Piet' Controversy Leads To 90 Arrests In Netherlands
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How many blatant racist traditions are left anyway? And even more so one's that have become so interwoven with a national celebration/children's festival?
User 73706
Banned
I'm sure every corner of the world has them if you look hard enough.
block tower
Member
i see. yeah it just always seemed foreign to me to see so many adults dressed up, no matter what the costume was.
Raven Prime
Member
I don't know, can you give some examples?
User 73706
Banned
Thanksgiving is a big one and it's right under most of the practicing population's noses. "After making landfall on this glorious new frontier that we discovered, and after a few comical, good-ol'-days peace talks with the natives, we invented 20th century dining arrangements and set up a great feast for all to enjoy! And we give thanks for this, because just imagine if we had, like, made landfall in Vikingville or some shit."
Raven Prime
Member
While Thanksgiving and even more so Columbus Day might be considered offensive, at least to some. I don't think they are deserving of the label 'racist'.
I don't know if it's blatant racism, but the illustration on the Golden Carriage, which is used every year on Prinsjesdag by our King and Queen, is a bit unfortunate:
But it's just an image and you can argue that it is part of our history and heritage.
I don't know how I feel about the [white] queen of your country parading around a golden carriage displaying black people as subservient to their [white] rulers even if it is part of your country's past.I don't know if it's blatant racism, but the illustration on the Golden Carriage, which is used every year on Prinsjesdag by our King and Queen, is a bit unfortunate:
But it's just an image and you can argue that it is part of our history and heritage.
Raven Prime
Member
I don't know if it's blatant racism, but the illustration on the Golden Carriage, which is used every year on Prinsjesdag by our King and Queen, is a bit unfortunate:
But it's just an image and you can argue that it is part of our history and heritage.
I would say that any active celebration of colonial imagery, especially those that depict others as inferior in any way, would denote a form of racism yes. It just shows how bad the situation in the Netherlands really is when it comes to colonial awareness. I mean I was thinking of non Dutch examples, but the 2nd example is again a Dutch 'tradition'.
Like some have argued Black Pete and the Golden Carriage belong in a museum, not on the streets.
Well...I learned something new today.
We can't deny that it is a part of our past, but I think they should just use another carriage.
They could put some gold foil over it, but everyone would know what is hidden underneath.
We should send some flags for solidarity."Heritage, not hate"
Raven Prime
Member
Instead of denying it, they should start by acknowledging it more. Sometimes one could be forgiven the thought that the only thing that ever happened in Dutch history was the 2nd World War. Ofcourse the Dutch also speak of their Golden century, during which they went out to colonize parts of the West and the East, but this is most often looked upon as a period of pride instead of shame. The Dutch are aware there was slavery in their past, but that is pretty much all there is to it, it's just a dry fact. People don't commemorate it as a period of shame, if at all.
The Golden carriage is just as bad as Zwarte Piet in that regard, the majority of the Dutch just act as if it isn't an issue at all. Including those in power. An 'enlightened' ruler would have commisioned a new carriage ages ago. Oh wait, an enlightened ruler would have abolished the ceremonial monarchy itself that just leeches on tax euro's to begin with.
poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
A slave plantation on the nickel.
Raven Prime
Member
I guess it's offensive, but I don't think it's racist per se. Also I wouldn't really consider that a tradition or celebration.
But I don't know, has anyone ever objected to it?
NYCmetsfan
Banned
Its funny the same arguments are used time and time again in every place on earth"Heritage, not hate"
Dreams-Visions
Member
I don't know if it's blatant racism, but the illustration on the Golden Carriage, which is used every year on Prinsjesdag by our King and Queen, is a bit unfortunate:
But it's just an image and you can argue that it is part of our history and heritage.
SIGH.
That is exactly what most of the Netherlands think about this celebration.
To replace it with an even more expensive presidency?Oh wait, an enlightened ruler would have abolished the ceremonial monarchy itself that just leeches on tax euro's to begin with.
Raven Prime
Member
I'm pretty sure the Americans aren't parading around in Redface during those celebrations. Since these celebrations don't involve racist caricatures, but are rather insensitive to the plights of the Native Americans I would just consider them ofensive, or at least can understand why some would consider them offensive.
Sinterklaas however isn't only insensitive to the plights of Sub Saharan Africans during colonial times, but includes a blatant racist caricature of them that's paraded around every year again and again.
Boom Boom Pow
Banned
do AMericans parade around in red paint, native american outfit, and wooping with small bows on their back during these two holidays?
that would be an equivalent.
That is a ridiculous comparison.
https://www.google.be/search?q=than...&sa=X&ei=AOxqVKyBOpPWapXFgJgJ&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ
It isn't a comparison. It is what the general population thinks. You're looking in from the outside on one and from the inside on the other one. You're bound to get different results.
Raven Prime
Member
The general population is woefully uninformed however, plus they have trouble seeing beyond their privilege. If anything those external observers aren't afflicted by cognitive dissonance and have less trouble seeing the situation for what it is.
Especially with the older generations, when asked about the Zwarte Piet problem their response is "Black Pete is Black, period!" even the Dutch PM's response wasn't more sophisticated than that "He is Black Pete, what's Black will have to remain Black, I can't help it". As a society the Dutch and perhaps the Belgians even more so, are just so insensitive and oblivious to how offensive this tradition with it's racist caricature actually is.
I don't know if it's blatant racism, but the illustration on the Golden Carriage, which is used every year on Prinsjesdag by our King and Queen, is a bit unfortunate:
But it's just an image and you can argue that it is part of our history and heritage.
Woah, wtf? I never knew this.
This is some seriously messed up stuff, and that has to change asap. That image is ridiculous in the 20th/21st century.
Damn, I feel like we need serious look at ourselves for stuff like this. It doesnt even say anything on the wiki about it either
It's probably not actively depicting racism, but definitively suggesting inferiority.
In order to comprehend the value of this tradition in Dutch culture, it may suffice to show just one photo.
My apologies for the quality, but what you see here are two soldiers of a shock troop regiment in Sumatra (Indonesia) December 1947. The left soldier is dressed as 'Sinterklaas' whereas the right soldier is dressed as 'Zwarte Piet'.
Just imagine, these guys were involved in an intense decolonization war, in which the guerrilla of the enemy slowly gained the upper hand, but in-between the fights and danger, they celebrated Sinterklaas anyway, and even dressed up for it.
So already in 1947, this tradition was considered important in the lives of Dutch people.
My point is not to endorse the image of Zwarte Piet, but only to clarify a little for those who are not born in Holland. I think this is actually the most important national tradition, next to Queens Day, which is Kings Day now, although the latter two are certainly invented traditions.
Considering traditions and especially the 'invented traditions' (you should google this), these change all the time. The friction here is the radical and sudden, even forced change, instead of a gradual one. I would have preferred the latter.
My apologies for the quality, but what you see here are two soldiers of a shock troop regiment in Sumatra (Indonesia) December 1947. The left soldier is dressed as 'Sinterklaas' whereas the right soldier is dressed as 'Zwarte Piet'.
Just imagine, these guys were involved in an intense decolonization war, in which the guerrilla of the enemy slowly gained the upper hand, but in-between the fights and danger, they celebrated Sinterklaas anyway, and even dressed up for it.
So already in 1947, this tradition was considered important in the lives of Dutch people.
My point is not to endorse the image of Zwarte Piet, but only to clarify a little for those who are not born in Holland. I think this is actually the most important national tradition, next to Queens Day, which is Kings Day now, although the latter two are certainly invented traditions.
Considering traditions and especially the 'invented traditions' (you should google this), these change all the time. The friction here is the radical and sudden, even forced change, instead of a gradual one. I would have preferred the latter.
It's a tradition born of colonialism, and much like colonialism, it should be remembered but never celebrated.In order to comprehend the value of this tradition in Dutch culture, it may suffice to show just one photo.
My apologies for the quality, but what you see here are two soldiers of a shock troop regiment in Sumatra (Indonesia) December 1947. The left soldier is dressed as 'Sinterklaas' whereas the right soldier is dressed as 'Zwarte Piet'.
Just imagine, these guys were involved in an intense decolonization war, in which the guerrilla of the enemy slowly gained the upper hand, but in-between the fights and danger, they celebrated Sinterklaas anyway, and even dressed up for it.
So already in 1947, this tradition was considered important in the lives of Dutch people.
My point is not to endorse the image of Zwarte Piet, but only to clarify a little for those who are not born in Holland. I think this is actually the most important national tradition, next to Queens Day, which is Kings Day now, although the latter two are certainly invented traditions.
Considering traditions and especially the 'invented traditions' (you should google this), these change all the time. The friction here is the radical and sudden, even forced change, instead of a gradual one. I would have preferred the latter.
That particular conflict in your picture is one of the most shameful moments in Dutch history, the fact that soldiers had that tradition back then is a very poor argument in its favor.
Nah, the yellow is a reference to the cheese that Gouda is famous for. They also had a black Pete that had a reddish colour and some checkered patterns on his face, as a reference to 'stroopwafels'.
The one thing that bothers me most about all this, that there's tons of worse shit going on in the world right now that hardly any Dutchie seems to care about, but when the ''Sinterklaas feest'' is in danger, people go crazy....
I don't care if Piet is black, white, purple or green btw.
I don't care if Piet is black, white, purple or green btw.
I don't want to get into the whole discussion AGAIN, but I'll say this;
I don't give a shit about what your opinion is, what side of the argument you stand on, once you come out and metaphorically defecate on what ws supposed to be a celebration organised for children, with loads of children present, you crossed a line. Make no mistake; I aim this at both extremists, both pro- and anti-Piet. They deserve to be kneecapped and forced to walk it off. And specifically the people who were standing in the middle of a group of children and started yelling how Sinterklaas isn't real; they deserve a gutshot.
I don't give a shit whether you want Piet to change or not, you don't start a riot at a public event where there are kids present. You just don't. That's crossing a line right there, and crossing it so far, the line is a dot to them.
I don't give a shit about what your opinion is, what side of the argument you stand on, once you come out and metaphorically defecate on what ws supposed to be a celebration organised for children, with loads of children present, you crossed a line. Make no mistake; I aim this at both extremists, both pro- and anti-Piet. They deserve to be kneecapped and forced to walk it off. And specifically the people who were standing in the middle of a group of children and started yelling how Sinterklaas isn't real; they deserve a gutshot.
I don't give a shit whether you want Piet to change or not, you don't start a riot at a public event where there are kids present. You just don't. That's crossing a line right there, and crossing it so far, the line is a dot to them.
Raven Prime
Member
What's so extreme about opposing racist caricatures? How about all those 'extremist' parents that expose their children to racist parades? It's easy calling people extremists. In fact it's a tactic employed often by politicians to suggest that a certain struggle lacks legitimacy.
I said it before in this thread, but if you feel so strongly for the children as you appear to do, then protect them from racist programming and speak out against this colonial relic.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
Your argument for this racist tradition is that while the Dutch were participating in racist colonialism they took the time out to dress up in black face? Since they did it for so long we should respect the tradition?In order to comprehend the value of this tradition in Dutch culture, it may suffice to show just one photo.
My apologies for the quality, but what you see here are two soldiers of a shock troop regiment in Sumatra (Indonesia) December 1947. The left soldier is dressed as 'Sinterklaas' whereas the right soldier is dressed as 'Zwarte Piet'.
Just imagine, these guys were involved in an intense decolonization war, in which the guerrilla of the enemy slowly gained the upper hand, but in-between the fights and danger, they celebrated Sinterklaas anyway, and even dressed up for it.
So already in 1947, this tradition was considered important in the lives of Dutch people.
My point is not to endorse the image of Zwarte Piet, but only to clarify a little for those who are not born in Holland. I think this is actually the most important national tradition, next to Queens Day, which is Kings Day now, although the latter two are certainly invented traditions.
Considering traditions and especially the 'invented traditions' (you should google this), these change all the time. The friction here is the radical and sudden, even forced change, instead of a gradual one. I would have preferred the latter.
It's their heritage.
People seem to forget that Piet has changed positively last few years. He now doesn't wear red lipstick and yellow earrings anymore, and the black paint is more swiped to emphasize he's black from going down the chimneys.
I think this is great, this is the new Piet and should end the discussion.
I think this is great, this is the new Piet and should end the discussion.
agreed completely. my partner and I took part in the event maybe two or three years ago during our european getaway. generally speaking; it was extremely peaceful with lots of happy kids running around. while i dont speak dutch at all, i never encountered anyone being overly racist or offensive in any manner honestly. in fact, reading about it now almost makes me sad. because at the end of the day, everything we saw seemed geared towards children and people, especially the kids, having a good time. protesting and getting hostile while kids are around, screaming at them that santa claus isnt real is quite honestly fucked up. as a parent, i would be pissed.
as far as the whole controversy goes, i guess im kind of indifferent. i see how the costumes could be offensive to some, but actually having been there, seems like it would be a shame for it to simply go away entirely.
it honestly reminds me of thanksgiving and a girlfriend i have on facebook. she is native american, and like clockwork every year, she rages on social media against the celebration or the shows or the school and church plays that depict the holiday. in her estimation, thanksgiving is rooted in racism, offensive to her family, and glosses over the terrible mass slaughter of her ancestors. and while i understand it and i guess sympathize with her a little bit, she is typically met with harsh backlash from americans (black and white) telling her to get over it, and saying its simply meant for fun and to bring families together. makes me wonder if the same people who are outraged over this would also rally to her views?
People seem to forget that Piet has changed positively last few years. He now doesn't wear red lipstick and yellow earrings anymore, and the black paint is more swiped to emphasize he's black from going down the chimneys.
I think this is great, this is the new Piet and should end the discussion.
I've never seen these kind of Petes before. Sure as shit not during those Sinterklaas Journaal shows my little sisters watch. But I'd definitely encourage these kind of Petes from your post, despite the frizzy/curly hair still being a thing, it's a good start if they do this throughout the country.
Raven Prime
Member
People seem to forget that Piet has changed positively last few years. He now doesn't wear red lipstick and yellow earrings anymore, and the black paint is more swiped to emphasize he's black from going down the chimneys.
I think this is great, this is the new Piet and should end the discussion.
If only it was that simple. Yes Piet is changing, but that's mainly because of the efforts by the Zwarte Piet is Racisme movement. Plus most parts of the Netherlands are actively resisting that change. The Piet you showed is the one they used in Amsterdam this year. But sadly it was introduced with a traditional blackface Piet.
You can't really see it's a blackface Piet, but all the news accompanying news reports described it as being the case.
So the discussion is far from over. Whilst progress is being made, we aren't there yet. Amsterdam is a progressive city and even there the change is slow and incomplete, now imagine all those small towns and smaller cities that cling to their racist caricature.
GingerNathan
Member
People seem to forget that Piet has changed positively last few years. He now doesn't wear red lipstick and yellow earrings anymore, and the black paint is more swiped to emphasize he's black from going down the chimneys.
I think this is great, this is the new Piet and should end the discussion.
The person in the image has lipstick on.
Furthermore I don't think slight changes will cut it, a sooty face would have been OK if the tradition had started that way, but because it didn't and the tradition is recognised with black face any changes would have to be drastic to distance it from racism.
Prophet Steve
Member
I think they have introduced them in the Sinterklaas Journaal too, but the default is still completely black.
I don't know if it's blatant racism, but the illustration on the Golden Carriage, which is used every year on Prinsjesdag by our King and Queen, is a bit unfortunate:
But it's just an image and you can argue that it is part of our history and heritage.
Teringgg is dit echt? Is me nooit opgevallen
{fuckkk, is this real? Never really struck me}
Then again, I'm not really Dutch if you'd believe certain people.
It's not what you are saying that's extremist, but how. Furthermore, your claim that the movement Zwarte Piet is Racisme is responsible for the changes made to Zwarte Piet's looks is factually wrong, the characteristics have been changed through the ages, before the movement even started.
Raven Prime
Member
It was a peaceful protest, however there were extreme right figures bent on disrupting that peaceful protest. They were the ones that tried to provoke the anti-ZP protest and caused the police to start arresting. My analysis is that they (the police) basically overreacted because they were afraid of escalations.
Noone is actually advocating that the tradition should go away, as I point out in my response below. Most people want Rainbow or Soot Petes, that have no clear ethnic association.
Thanksgiving has already been discussed here, and I would definitely agree it's offensive. Not sure about it being racist, though. If people commemorated the atrocities commited against Native Americans during those kind of celebrations. I'm sure it could be considered a more inclusive celebration, respectful to all sentiments.
It's a Soot Pete, it's the type of alternative I and many other anti-ZP protesters advocate.
I'm pretty sure that exposing children to peaceful protests is far less extreme than exposing them to racist parades.
My claim is not factually wrong. Please show me clear examples of mayors introducing Soot Petes before 2012.
The characteristics of Zwarte Piet have changed, as do all traditions. But that change has been very slow. As I already described before the change has mainly consisted of Zwarte Piet losing his thick fake accent, losing the birching and the removal of the Spain kidnapping narrative. When it comes to the appearance of Zwarte Piet very little has changed in the last 60 years or so. Only now because of internal pressure of movements like ZPiR and external pressure like from the U.N. can we see a clear change in the appearance of Zwarte Piet and still that is rare on a national scale.
It's real, despite the fact that the carriage was made decades after the abolition of slavery, the imagery is eerily reminiscent of it. I think there is some merit to the idea that the golden carriage is better at home in a museum than in a yearly celebration.
As far as the person who said a presidency would be more expensive than a monarchy, it is nigh impossible for a presidency to cost more than the Dutch monarchy is costing at the moment, it being by some length the most expensive monarchy to maintain in all of Europe.
It's not a solution to anything. Will changing the color suddenly not make it racist in the eyes of those who think Zwarte Piet is racist? No. You still have 'servants' working for a older, wiser white man, 'servants' that used to be black.
Okay, clearly you don't really know the origins of Zwarte Piet and Sinterklaas. Let me give a recap for the people that don't know either:
The Sinterklaas festival has been around for way, way longer than colonialism and even Zwarte Piet. Sinterklaas was based on a Turkish (back in the days of the Eastern Roman Empire) holy man called Nicolaas of Myra. He was the patron saint of kids and that's where Sinterklaas as a festival for kids comes from. Originally he was meant as a boogieman for naughty kids, but over the years he transformed into a kind man.
Zwarte Piet was introduced in the late 19th century (after the colonialism era) by a picture book called 'Sinterklaas en zijn Knecht'. This knecht (page) was clearly racist in tone, as many people were those days (even renowned writers as H.P. Lovecraft and Edgar Allen Poe were extremely racist). The (unnamed) page in this book was some sort of boogieman, scaring naughty kids while Sinterklaas gave the nice kids candy and toys. It's interesting to note that the first 'Piet' (who wasn't called that yet), was on his own. Occassionally there would be two, but never more.
The idea of multiple Pieten at the Sinterklaas festival actually didn't come from the Dutch, but from the Canadians, who all dressed up as Pieten after the Second World War. Throughout the years the image of the Pieten has changed. Up until the mid-80's you could argue that the original ('racist') origins of Zwarte Piet were still there, he was still the boogieman who would take you away if you had behaved badly. In the late 80's/early 90's this changed though (just like that happened centuries before with Sinterklaas) and Zwarte Piet became a kind helper that entertained the children with jokes, acrobatic tricks, fun adventures (De Club van Sinterklaas, a show every child watches, is all about how the Pieten singlehandidly save the Sinterklaas festival every year from cartoonesque bad people who try to stop Sinterklaas).
Also, as many people have pointed out, for the past ten years they have seperated themselves from the racist stereotype even more by no longer using red lipstick en masse (only certain Pieten still had it). The only thing that stayed was the black color, simply because the Pieten are called Zwarte Pieten and the black color is just part of their attire.
Anyway, the point is that while De Zwarte Pieten may have started as a racist stereotype heavily influenced by the colonial age (but by no means did it start in the colonial age), they haven't had a racist or scary connotation in years. We, as kids, just have fun with it and see these Pieten as fun, kind people who give us candy, presents and have these grand adventures to protect the festival. Furthermore, in the 90's one of the most popular children's music bands in the country (VOF de Kunst) made a song celebrating the black Zwarte Pieten in the song Witte Zwarte Pieten (White Black Petes) in which they state that the white Zwarte Pieten are nasty people who are basically the boogiemen that the Zwarte Piet started as and that that's why Sinterklaas doesn't take them with him.
Nice to see these kind of alternatives. Some people I know still justify its current portrayal, it's sickening and even genuinely sad.
Not only did the Netherlands still maintain colonies at that point, it was even still fighting wars to expand them.
Yeah, I worded that wrong. What I meant was that it was after the VOC/African slavery-era of the Dutch. The Indonesian colonies are actually part of my heritage (my mother's grandmother came from those) and both my grandfathers fought in the Second World War to protect them from the Japanese.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
The photo I was responding to was taken in the 1940s when the dutch were fighting to maintain their colonies and subjugate non-white natives. The poster used this to highlight the rich tradition of zwarte pieten
I think he mainly used it to illustrate the extreme degree to which the tradition matters to Dutch people, not as a defence of the tradition.
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