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[Ikael]

Honest question: did the Dutch used to had ministrel shows that produced the whole "blakface" character?

I am ambivalent to these whole Black Pete thing. If the Dutch theirselves think of it as offensive, so be it, but I wouldn't feel comfortable if Israelis would start demanding Indians to drop their swastika symbols, either, to put another example of something with vastly different meanings to different people (including rightful offense).

 

[Pelydr]

Could be you are right, but i still don't see how one can 'shock people into self-awareness' in this case. Education would work much better, make it come from within instead of trying to push things down peoples throats imho.

So far i haven't seen a single Dutchie defend this in this thread. Trying to explain what is going on, yes. Defend it, no.

Education is certainly key. Why don't Dutch schools teach about their horribly racist, slave trade past is the first question you should be asking. Why do Dutch people teach this racism to their kids if they know its based on racism?

 

[J10]

So far i haven't seen a single Dutchie defend this in this thread. Trying to explain what is going on, yes. Defend it, no.

I think they all got banned by the fascist imperialist American guilty white liberal moderators in the Kardashian thread.

 

[Slayven]

Yep, I've seen it. Please tell me the counter arguments for this point.

And yes, I understand why it could be considered offensive and heck, I would never dress like that or wouldn't really mind if they change it. I'm just wondering, for arguments sake, why several islands with a mostly black population can celebrate it this way without any problems if it is so obvious and inherently a racist and offensive tradition to black people.

Grin and bear it. Black people were usually the bands in minstrel shows too.

 

[Tragicomedy]

Could be you are right, but i still don't see how one can 'shock people into self-awareness' in this case. Education would work much better, make it come from within instead of trying to push things down peoples throats imho.

So far i haven't seen a single Dutchie defend this in this thread. Trying to explain what is going on, yes. Defend it, no.

There was an entire thread where a full on defense force formed. Even in the face of all evidence pointing to this being flat out racist bullshit, dudes were like, "Save your American cultural guilt, chumps! People here love it, even that one black dude who cuts my sister's boyfriend's uncle's hair. He's one of the good ones!"

Racism is racism. I've lived in South America, the US, the Middle East, and traveled Europe. It was the same bullshit everywhere. I will say I've been more shocked at how open it was in South America and Europe. I think we've shamed most of our racists in the US to keep a lid on it, but they're still out there. I've never heard monkey chants or seen fucking bananas tossed at black players in professional sports in the US, for example.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Yep, I've seen it. Please tell me the counter arguments for this point.

And yes, I understand why it could be considered offensive and heck, I would never dress like that or wouldn't really mind if they change it. I'm just wondering, for arguments sake, why several islands with a mostly black population can celebrate it this way without any problems if it is so obvious and inherently a racist and offensive tradition to black people.

Probably because they don't have to deal with as much racism. See how Chapelle quit his show and gave up millions just because he saw a white dude laughing at a joke in a way that made him realize he was like a circus act.

Regardless, "some black people seem okay with it" doesn't fly as an argument.

 

[N.Domixis]

activist judge...

but seriously... would the kids REALLY care if their favorite holiday heroes just suddenly stopped appearing with blackface, steel wool hair or nigger lips and simply still dressed up in the fancy clothes and did everything else the exact same?

WTF is this? I didn't know neogaf was a place that allowed users to drop the n word.

 

[Arjen]

Honest question: did the Dutch used to had ministrel shows that produced the whole "blakface" character?

I am ambivalent to these whole Black Pete thing. If the Dutch theirselves think of it as offensive, so be it, but I wouldn't feel comfortable if Israelis would start demanding Indians to drop their swastika symbols, either, to put another example of something with vastly different meanings to different people (including rightful offense).

Apparently some traveled trough Europe, I never heard of that until someone pointed it out on Wikipedia. But the majority of this country probably has no idea what a minstrel show is.

 

[Lowmelody]

Why not change Piet's black-face to patchy smoke and soot and make the hair not an afro wig? I don't think I have ever heard of issues with his character aside from his racist facial presentation. I may be wrong there and the character not worth salvaging but it seems to me that it's easily possible to do the tradition justice without the application of black-face.

 

[Fusebox]

My mum used to dress up as Black Pete when I was younger and she's like the least racist person ever.

 

[Red Liquorice]

Of course it's a racist stereotype. It's 2014, time for this shit to go. Whatever the point of doing it now is, the make-up is clearly a racial stereotype - it looks like a gollywog or the black and white Minstrels we had in the UK up to a few decades ago. They were retired (far past the time they should've gone too). We move on, it's the right thing to do.

 

[Captain Europe]

Hopefully this is the beginning of change.

 

[Yaboosh]

WTF is this? I didn't know neogaf was a place that allowed users to drop the n word.

Depends on context, he is using it in a rather biting, sarcastic way to emphasize how offensive he finds Zwarte Piet's characterization.

 

[YoungHav]

How about making Sinterklaas Black with White Pete helpers?

 

[Antagon]

Sadly though, black Pete is the smallest of the problems with racism that we have to deal with in the Netherlands. A few decades ago, the term 'allochtoon' was introduced to make a distinction between immigrants and children of immigrants and 'native' Dutch. The entire country seems obsessed with it, you can't check a newspaper or watch a political debate without constantly being told that 'allochtonen' are doing so bad, or that a crime was perpetrated by an allochtoon (which more often then not were born in the Netherlands).

The distinction is made everywhere, constantly changing the discussion about immigration in an 'us' vs 'them' discussion, where people can't help but remind the allochtonen that they don't really belong in the Netherlands and should just ve happy that they allow them to live here. It's absolutely sickening, made worse by the far majority of people here not seeing what the problem is. Instead, if an allochtoon adresses this issue the most common argument you'd hear is 'then go back to your own country'.

 

[Kabouter]

Is he supposed to be a Black guy, though? I don't think the medieval Persians had really any contact with Sub-Saharan Africans, except for during the Achaemenid and Sasanian campaigns in Southern Egypt. Meanwhile, the Dutch were huge players in the Transatlantic slave trade.

Yes, they would have. Persia was an integral part in the Indian Ocean Trade, as was East Africa. Exports of wares like ivory as well as slaves made it all over the Indian Ocean area, and Persian merchants were amongst the most important in the trade, and would most definitely have met with Kilwan people.

America has the true problem with racism dating back to slavery, even though the Dutch were the first to import black slaves from Africa into America. They were just innocently transporting these people to satisfy the supply side of the equation. This wasn't some form of racist profiteering on their behalf, and the blame rests solely on our former colonies.

This is false, the Netherlands didn't even exist when the transatlantic slave trade began. The country you're thinking of is Spain.

 

[SmokyDave]

But Netherlands GAF told me all the white people there loved this character and didn't consider him racist. Also, there weren't enough black people around to complain about the issue. They also said that the Netherlands and Europe as a whole doesn't have the same problems with racism that we do in America.

America has the true problem with racism dating back to slavery, even though the Dutch were the first to import black slaves from Africa into America. They were just innocently transporting these people to satisfy the supply side of the equation. This wasn't some form of racist profiteering on their behalf, and the blame rests solely on our former colonies.

Also, I've never seen a banana tossed on the field towards a black player during a football/soccer match in Europe IN THE YEAR TWO THOUSAND AND FOURTEEN, while that stuff happens all the time here in the US. I've also never heard monkey chants directed at said players, while that's basically an everyday affair here in Freedomland.

In conclusion: black face in the US is racist, since we are a racist scumbag nation. Black face in the Netherlands and Europe is sophisticated and cultural, and Americans need to stop framing it in our racist paradigm.

The smug, self-satisfied sarcasm in this post is so thick and cloying that the text virtually oozes its way off the screen. I think this should be the first post for all race threads at which point the thread can be locked and any pretence of conversation can be dropped. Let's be honest, we only care who has the dirtiest hands out of the US and Europe.

 

[IceCold]

Yes, they would have. Persia was an integral part in the Indian Ocean Trade, as was East Africa. Exports of wares like ivory as well as slaves made it all over the Indian Ocean area, and Persian merchants were amongst the most important in the trade, and would most definitely have met with Kilwan people.


This is false, the Netherlands didn't even exist when the transatlantic slave trade began. The country you're thinking of is Portugal.

The first was actually Spain although Portugal was using slaves in Cape Verde already iirc.

 

[Kabouter]

The first was actually Spain although Portugal was using slaves in Cape Verde already iirc.

Ah yes, you're right. I stand corrected.

 

[bishoptl]

Radical American judge no doubt. Forcing their racist traditions.

So much sodium. I've been laughing about this all day long.

What now, apologists? Come at me

 

[neorej]

Just to put things in perspective; a very small but vocal percentage of Dutch people are offended by the Black Pete character. The leader of this vocal minority, Quinsy Gario, is a failed artist and is most reknowned for being offended by everything and anything. His most famous spokesperson, Prem Radhakishun, who lived in the Netherlands his entire life and is well-known for stirring up shit whenever and however he can, never had a problem with Black Pete untill somewhere 2 years ago, when he was asked to become a spokesperson for the anti-Black Pete movement. Prem even dressed up as Black Pete on several occasions in his adult life, that's how offended he is by the character.

All this has nothing to do with whether the Black Pete character is or isn't offensive and racially stereotyping, but with a couple of people craving and seeking attention. Hell, part of the official complaint was that they were forced to leave the European Union after the Sinterklaas parade. How twisted are you?

Should the Black Pete character change into something less racially offensive? Definetly. Should it happen at gunpoint with a knife againt our collective throats because of a few people who need the attention? Hell no. Quinsy and his followers have never entered in debate on the subject, all they have done was yell, scream, threaten and be angry.

How hypocritical is Quinsy and his organisation against Black Pete? Very, considering they have no problem hiring a legal representative who's history consists of lies and fraud; Frank King. Mister King promotes himself as a immigration lawyer, claiming to help people migrate to The Netherlands. A noble and honorable field of work, except for the fact that he also provides false hope to people who have no chance of ever being allowed into The Netherlands, in order to receive his money, which he of course earns based on an hourly rate, not a flat fee.
tl;dr Quinsy Gario has hired a legal representative who's main source of income is scamming and frauding, with mainly African people as his victims.

Let's have this debate. I want Black Pete to change into something less racially profiled and something more generic. But not with Quinsy Gario at the table. Get people like Humberto Tan and Jurgen Raymann to explain and talk about what they feel and see when Black Pete is walking in the anual Sinterklaas parade. Get a real debate going, instead of this fear mongering hypocritical bullshit that serves nothing else but attention-seeking and polarizing the society.

 

[shacklesmcgee]

Wow, and with that Kim K thread the other day...

 

[bishoptl]

Damn, not even 3 minutes later.

 

[Antagon]

Just to put things in perspective; a very small but vocal percentage of Dutch people are offended by the Black Pete character. The leader of this vocal minority, Quinsy Gario, is a failed artist and is most reknowned for being offended by everything and anything. His most famous spokesperson, Prem Radhakishun, who lived in the Netherlands his entire life and is well-known for stirring up shit whenever and however he can, never had a problem with Black Pete untill somewhere 2 years ago, when he was asked to become a spokesperson for the anti-Black Pete movement. Prem even dressed up as Black Pete on several occasions in his adult life, that's how offended he is by the character.

All this has nothing to do with whether the Black Pete character is or isn't offensive and racially stereotyping, but with a couple of people craving and seeking attention. Hell, part of the official complaint was that they were forced to leave the European Union after the Sinterklaas parade. How twisted are you?

Should the Black Pete character change into something less racially offensive? Definetly. Should it happen at gunpoint with a knife againt our collective throats because of a few people who need the attention? Hell no. Quinsy and his followers have never entered in debate on the subject, all they have done was yell, scream, threaten and be angry.

How hypocritical is Quinsy and his organisation against Black Pete? Very, considering they have no problem hiring a legal representative who's history consists of lies and fraud; Frank King. Mister King promotes himself as a immigration lawyer, claiming to help people migrate to The Netherlands. A noble and honorable field of work, except for the fact that he also provides false hope to people who have no chance of ever being allowed into The Netherlands, in order to receive his money, which he of course earns based on an hourly rate, not a flat fee.
tl;dr Quinsy Gario has hired a legal representative who's main source of income is scamming and frauding, with mainly African people as his victims.

Let's have this debate. I want Black Pete to change into something less racially profiled and something more generic. But not with Quinsy Gario at the table. Get people like Humberto Tan and Jurgen Raymann to explain and talk about what they feel and see when Black Pete is walking in the anual Sinterklaas parade. Get a real debate going, instead of this fear mongering hypocritical bullshit that serves nothing else but attention-seeking and polarizing the society.

An Amsterdam poll has shown that the majority of non white Amsterdam residents see 'Zwarte Piet' as discriminating. What about them?

 

[BrassDragon]

Good post, I'm quoting it in case people missed it the first time.

Entirely reasonable judgment, I wonder how the city will react.

Most likely, the city will set new conditions before granting a permit for a Sinterklaas parade and we're going to see more Bonte Pieten ('Colourful Petes'):

The one thing I worry about is radicalism on both sides of the argument - we can already see the closet racists coming out in response to the verdict. Conversely, there are people who feel justified violently disrupting a kids' festival because they are offended.

From a police perspective, last year was the first time I remember dealing with fucking security issues and criminal discrimination charges surrounding Sinterklaas. It's depressing. But I suppose that's how societal changes go.

 

[shacklesmcgee]

Just to put things in perspective; a very small but vocal percentage of Dutch people are offended by the Black Pete character. The leader of this vocal minority, Quinsy Gario, is a failed artist and is most reknowned for being offended by everything and anything. His most famous spokesperson, Prem Radhakishun, who lived in the Netherlands his entire life and is well-known for stirring up shit whenever and however he can, never had a problem with Black Pete untill somewhere 2 years ago, when he was asked to become a spokesperson for the anti-Black Pete movement. Prem even dressed up as Black Pete on several occasions in his adult life, that's how offended he is by the character.

All this has nothing to do with whether the Black Pete character is or isn't offensive and racially stereotyping, but with a couple of people craving and seeking attention. Hell, part of the official complaint was that they were forced to leave the European Union after the Sinterklaas parade. How twisted are you?

Should the Black Pete character change into something less racially offensive? Definetly. Should it happen at gunpoint with a knife againt our collective throats because of a few people who need the attention? Hell no. Quinsy and his followers have never entered in debate on the subject, all they have done was yell, scream, threaten and be angry.

How hypocritical is Quinsy and his organisation against Black Pete? Very, considering they have no problem hiring a legal representative who's history consists of lies and fraud; Frank King. Mister King promotes himself as a immigration lawyer, claiming to help people migrate to The Netherlands. A noble and honorable field of work, except for the fact that he also provides false hope to people who have no chance of ever being allowed into The Netherlands, in order to receive his money, which he of course earns based on an hourly rate, not a flat fee.
tl;dr Quinsy Gario has hired a legal representative who's main source of income is scamming and frauding, with mainly African people as his victims.

Let's have this debate. I want Black Pete to change into something less racially profiled and something more generic. But not with Quinsy Gario at the table. Get people like Humberto Tan and Jurgen Raymann to explain and talk about what they feel and see when Black Pete is walking in the anual Sinterklaas parade. Get a real debate going, instead of this fear mongering hypocritical bullshit that serves nothing else but attention-seeking and polarizing the society.

No. No debate. Change the shitty imagery. Kids still enjoy holiday. Roll on snare drum. Curtains.

 

[Dead Man]

No. No debate. Change the shitty imagery. Kids still enjoy holiday. Roll on snare drum. Curtains.

No debate is fine when you are in the prevailing position. Bit harder to stomach when people are unilaterally deciding things. Bad idea to shut down debate. A decision may be made in future, but to act as if no debate needs to happen is foolish.

 

[Fusebox]

Most likely, the city will set new conditions before granting a permit for a Sinterklaas parade and we're going to see more Bonte Pieten ('Colourful Petes'):

The one thing I worry about is radicalism on both sides of the argument - we can already see the closet racists coming out in response to the verdict. Conversely, there are people who feel justified violently disrupting a kids' festival because they are offended.

From a police perspective, last year was the first time I remember dealing with fucking security issues and criminal discrimination charges surrounding Sinterklaas. It's depressing. But I suppose that's how societal changes go.

Colorful Petes look amazing!

 

[BrassDragon]

No. No debate. Change the shitty imagery. Kids still enjoy holiday. Roll on snare drum. Curtains.

This is not a single event in a single city organised by a single entity - you can't 'just' change it, you need to get the majority on-board.Every school party, every shop sign, every advertisement, every public event, organised by tens of thousands of people.

Even outright outlawing this will be hugely impractical - the enforcement alone is going to be a nightmare. Without a debate and a shift in public perspective, it's not happening.

I know you guys are offended by this (and I agree with the sentiment) but please can we accept how impossible it is to stop doing this tradition overnight, especially since a majority of citizens STILL don't see a problem?

 

[SmokyDave]

No. No debate. Change the shitty imagery. Kids still enjoy holiday. Roll on snare drum. Curtains.

Sounds reasonable. I generally find that shouting at people whilst refusing to listen to them enhances cooperation immensely.

 

[neorej]

An Amsterdam poll has shown that the majority of non white Amsterdam residents see 'Zwarte Piet' as discriminating. What about them?

The highest number I could find was 25% of Amsterdam residents of Surinam and Antillian descend. Hardly a majority.

No. No debate. Change the shitty imagery. Kids still enjoy holiday. Roll on snare drum. Curtains.

And this is exactly what I meant.


BTW, did you guys know that the origin of Black Pete is not officially recorded and according to some sources stems from a Sinterklaas-parade with only Sinterklaas arriving on a boat and Antillian dock-workers felt he deserved some helpers on his boat to carry those presents? Of course you did.

 

[Osahi]

Why not change Piet's black-face to patchy smoke and soot and make the hair not an afro wig? I don't think I have ever heard of issues with his character aside from his racist facial presentation. I may be wrong there and the character not worth salvaging but it seems to me that it's easily possible to do the tradition justice without the application of black-face.

This. We allready changed the backstory from black slave to sinterklaases helper who's black because of soot in the 90ies. Time for a new update. Traditions don't have to die, they have to evolve to meet the times.

I'm a Belgian btw. Sinterklaas and zwarte piet are huge here too.

 

[Antagon]

The highest number I could find was 25% of Amsterdam residents of Surinam and Antillian descend. Hardly a majority.



And this is exactly what I meant.


BTW, did you guys know that the origin of Black Pete is not officially recorded and according to some sources stems from a Sinterklaas-parade with only Sinterklaas arriving on a boat and Antillian dock-workers felt he deserved some helpers on his boat to carry those presents? Of course you did.

http://www.os.amsterdam.nl/pdf/2013_zwarte piet.pdf

27% of Amsterdam recidents of Surinam descend see it as discrimatory for themselves, with another 50% seeing it as discriminatory for others. Only 19% see it as non-discriminatory. Hardly a minority.

I just don't see why we can't try to make a national holiday inclusive for all residents in the Netherlands. The only real reason why it's an issue for people is their 'us' vs 'them' view, where they think that the 'immigrants' (aka non white) want to destroy the 'Dutch' culture. In reality though, I'm sure the far majority of people that have problems with it just want to celebrate it with their kids, without having to deal with the negative stereotypes.

 

[soepje]

Have you read that Kim Kardashian thread? http://neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=845876 That's probably what people are referring to. Defenses and explanations went wild in there.

No, i hadn't really checked it. Thanks.

Education is certainly key. Why don't Dutch schools teach about their horribly racist, slave trade past is the first question you should be asking. Why do Dutch people teach this racism to their kids if they know its based on racism?

From my little experience they do teach kids about the slave trade here. At least i got it covered in both primary and high school. As a kid i never made the connection between Piet and slavery or black people in general though.
The problem is that a lot of adults here still refuse to see or acknowledge the connection between negative things like racism and slavery and the beloved Piet we have today. They don't understand that something positive can still be considered racist. This is what needs to be changed.
Now i´m quite certain a lot of parents would get pissed off and on the fence if a random teacher decided to teach their kids the truth about zwarte piet, ruining child heros and fantasies etc.. which is something you don't want to do because it will just bring a stronger counter reaction.
On the other hand i do think that the fact that it gets brought up in the news more and more often helps a lot. At some point people will start questioning themselves. It's just a matter of time until the majority of the Dutchies will understand it and want Piet to change too.
Until then you simply can't force a whole nation to suddenly celebrate their holiday in a different way if the majority simply doesn't see the problem in the first place.

 

[Tragicomedy]

The utter failure here is appealing to the majority as if that should serve as a moral barometer. Nope. The entire purpose of social mores, anti-discriminatory legislation, and the like is to prevent exactly that.

In this case you have a cultural tradition that it steeped in blatant racism. It doesn't matter if 99.9% of the white population pats itself collectively on the back and says that this shit smells like roses. It's racist shit, perfumed or otherwise.

A racist caricature doesn't cease to be offensive because it's acceptable to anyone other than the caricatured race. There are no gray areas here.

 

[neorej]

http://www.os.amsterdam.nl/pdf/2013_zwarte piet.pdf

27% of Amsterdam recidents of Surinam descend see it as discrimatory for themselves, with another 50% seeing it as discriminatory for others. Only 19% see it as non-discriminatory. Hardly a minority.

I just don't see why we can't try to make a national holiday inclusive for all residents in the Netherlands. The only real reason why it's an issue for people is their 'us' vs 'them' view, where they think that the 'immigrants' (aka non white) want to destroy the 'Dutch' culture. In reality though, I'm sure the far majority of people that have problems with it just want to celebrate it with their kids, without having to deal with the negative stereotypes.

Don't you agree the 'us vs them'-mentality comes directly from the way Quinsy and his gang have started this entire thing? He never sought out a conversation or a rational way of addressing the issue, he directly went for aggressive tactics and even going so far as to using the children in his war on BP. That kind of behavior provokes a certain reaction, and not the kind of reaction that will lead to something constructive.

Like I said, this entire thing only leads to one thing; Quinsy getting the attention he craves.

 

[Antagon]

No, i hadn't really checked it. Thanks.

From my little experience they do teach kids about the slave trade here. At least i got it covered in both primary and high school. As a kid i never made the connection between Piet and slavery or black people in general though.
The problem is that a lot of adults here still refuse to see or acknowledge the connection between negative things like racism and slavery and the beloved Piet we have today. They don't understand that something positive can still be considered racist. This is what needs to be changed.
Now i´m quite certain a lot of parents would get pissed off and on the fence if a random teacher decided to teach their kids the truth about zwarte piet, ruining child heros and fantasies etc.. which is something you don't want to do because it will just bring a stronger counter reaction.
On the other hand i do think that the fact that it gets brought up in the news more and more often helps a lot. At some point people will start questioning themselves. It's just a matter of time until the majority of the Dutchies will understand it and want Piet to change too.
Until then you simply can't force a whole nation to suddenly celebrate their holiday in a different way if the majority simply doesn't see the problem in the first place.

Funny thing is that the stereotyping of Zwarte Piet is still seen as positive. It's a negative thing. Sure, Zwarte Piet nowadays is a jolly guy, but his character traits is not what is discussed about here.

And slavery, while not completely ignored, is not something that has a huge part in education. The fact that we have had prime ministers that talk about getting back to the 'VOC-mentality' says enough.

 

[Antagon]

Don't you agree the 'us vs them'-mentality comes directly from the way Quinsy and his gang have started this entire thing? He never sought out a conversation or a rational way of addressing the issue, he directly went for aggressive tactics and even going so far as to using the children in his war on BP. That kind of behavior provokes a certain reaction, and not the kind of reaction that will lead to something constructive.

Like I said, this entire thing only leads to one thing; Quinsy getting the attention he craves.

No, the us vs them mentality is apparent everywhere, not just this issue. There's tons of instituational racism that is ignored. There's a huge focus on 'allochtonen' in the media, where it's very obvious that they're not being accepted as Dutch citizens even if they have a Dutch passport or even if them (and their parents) are born here.

 

[soepje]

Funny thing is that the stereotyping of Zwarte Piet is still seen as positive. It's a negative thing. Sure, Zwarte Piet nowadays is a jolly guy, but his character traits is not what is discussed about here.

And slavery, while not completely ignored, is not something that has a huge part in education. The fact that we have had prime ministers that talk about getting back to the 'VOC-mentality' says enough.

Balkenende did get some negative feedback over that comment though

 

[Herbspiceguy]

And slavery, while not completely ignored, is not something that has a huge part in education. The fact that we have had prime ministers that talk about getting back to the 'VOC-mentality' says enough.

My experience is the same as Soepje; part of history lessons in primary & secondary school. Not sure how it is now, but I doubt they would change it since our colonial past is such an important chapter of our history.

Balkenende said we should return to our VOC mentality. I recall there was a huge public & political backfire about this statement.

 

[Antagon]

Damn, not even 3 minutes later.

Keep in mind that there's an enormous amount of ignorance about it in the Netherlands though. A lot of people just don't understand why others might view it as condescending.

Hell, our current prime minister doesn't even get it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fk2YkZ2gGDI

 

[Antagon]

My experience is the same as Soepje; part of history lessons in primary & secondary school. Not sure how it is now, but I doubt they would change it since our colonial past is such an important chapter of our history.

Balkenende said we should return to our VOC mentality. I recall there was a huge public & political backfire about this statement.

The backlash was tiny, almost non-existing, compared to the backlash that the complaints about Zwarte Piet get. That should make you think.

 

[Arjen]

Damn, not even 3 minutes later.

Maybe you don't want a debate on this site that's fine, but we need a debate in this country. People don't get why it's offensive, they need to be teached why it is.
The image will change, but it wil take time, and it will take people calmly telling why the current image is racist.

 

[zoukka]

Sometimes there shouldn't be a debate though- sometimes there just is a right side and a wrong side, and thats that.

Of course there should always be a debate.

 

[Herbspiceguy]

The backlash was tiny, almost non-existing, compared to the backlash that the complaints about Zwarte Piet get. That should make you think.

Maybe huge is an overstatement, but "tiny, almost non existant" is equally hyperbolic. It was magnified by news outlets, critical articles, talked about on TV, and opposing politicians saw it as an oppertunity to attack him. I know a lot of people in RL thought the statement was ridiculous.
I'm sure it did more bad, than good to his image.

 

[shacklesmcgee]

No debate is fine when you are in the prevailing position. Bit harder to stomach when people are unilaterally deciding things. Bad idea to shut down debate. A decision may be made in future, but to act as if no debate needs to happen is foolish.

This is not a single event in a single city organised by a single entity - you can't 'just' change it, you need to get the majority on-board.Every school party, every shop sign, every advertisement, every public event, organised by tens of thousands of people.

Even outright outlawing this will be hugely impractical - the enforcement alone is going to be a nightmare. Without a debate and a shift in public perspective, it's not happening.

I know you guys are offended by this (and I agree with the sentiment) but please can we accept how impossible it is to stop doing this tradition overnight, especially since a majority of citizens STILL don't see a problem?

Sounds reasonable. I generally find that shouting at people whilst refusing to listen to them enhances cooperation immensely.

And this is exactly what I meant.

Sorry, didn't mean no debate as in no discussion of what Zwarte Piet can change to, I just mean it has to at least to change. We can't debate about leaving it as it is. I'm all for talking about what can be done to "fix" the tradition, change to a more soot like representation, do all sorts of rainbow colours, etc.

 

[overcast]

I don't really see how taking away the afro, red lips, and black face take away from the kids pleasure? Just alter the costume to something.. not racist.

 

[Scipio]

What a big load of bullshit.

Fucking hell, there's nothing even remotely racist about it. I hope we Belgians don't follow that decision. Zwarte Piet is black from soot or is a black man.. is it even important? Zwarte Piet is never portrayed as a slave, but rather as a (usually smart) assistant. I know almost no one who thinks it's racist.

What's next? Sinterklaas (our and the original version of Santa) may not wear a cross on his mitre? O wait...

Good way to destroy a traditional festivity and make it even more fabricated and commercial. Also WTF to the guys who're saying it should be modernised, it's called TRADITION...

I get really mad about this, it's a huge part of my childhood and that of many other inhabitants of Belgium and the Netherlands.

 

[ISOM]

What a big load of bullshit.

Fucking hell, there's nothing even remotely racist about it. I hope we Belgians don't follow that decision. Zwarte Piet is black from soot or is a black man.. is it even important? Zwarte Piet is never portrayed as a slave, but rather as a (usually smart) assistant. I know almost no one who thinks it's racist.

What's next? Sinterklaas (our and the original version of Santa) may not wear a cross on his mitre? O wait...

Good way to destroy a traditional festivity and make it even more fabricated and commercial. Also WTF to the guys who're saying it should be modernised, it's called TRADITION...

I get really mad about this, it's a huge part of my childhood and that of many other inhabitants of Belgium and the Netherlands.

So, as long as your tradition gets preserved you don't care about the feelings of anyone else or any other racial group? Empathy what is it..

 

[Scipio]

In Belgium, there is not even a debate. I know that better than a group of internet warriors who never been here.

Of course I care about the feelings of other racial groups, but where I live and the (black) people I know are NOT offended by the imagery.

Always when the idea of changing is brought up, everyone is defending Zwarte Piet.