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[Lime]

@Linius:

I'm reminded of this quote that has been stated a couple of times in this thread:

I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizens Councillor or the Ku Klux Klanner but the white moderate who is more devoted to order than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says, "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action"...
- Letter from a Birmingham Jail, Martin Luther King, Jr

 

[Arjen]

@Linius:

I'm reminded of this quote that has been stated a couple of times in this thread:

So, what would your solution be?

 

[tbm24]

So, what would your solution be?

For a start, could stop bringing up the fact that they protested at an event where children would be present. It's a children-centric holiday from all I've come to understand, so what do you expect? Also the protesters are not responsible for the aggressive response from the anti-protesters. From what I've read, they are all adults and should know better than to escalate a situation to that level anywhere, not just at a kids event. It's already ridiculous that they are actively fighting for keeping racist imagery.

 

[Lime]

So, what would your solution be?

I'm sure organisations and people in the Netherlands would be much better at answering that question. My totally uninformed suggestion would be:

• to correct the national tradition
• make a public apology to the ones affected by the now century-long tradition, both past and present.
• Even better, the government could introduce a form of day remembering either the dark colonial atrocities or reversely, make a national day celebrating diversity or people of color in the Netherlands.
• And for the love of all that is holy & mighty, remove the painting on that royal carriage.

But I'm White and not even from the Netherlands, so I shouldn't speak for what other people would prefer to do.

 

[Arjen]

For a start, could stop bringing up the fact that they protested at an event where children would be present. It's a children-centric holiday from all I've come to understand, so what do you expect? Also the protesters are not responsible for the aggressive response from the anti-protesters. From what I've read, they are all adults and should know better than to escalate a situation to that level anywhere, not just at a kids event. It's already ridiculous that they are actively fighting for keeping racist imagery.

First of all, the anti protesters are idiots, and the government probably knows this, hence why they want to keep them away from the protestors. And you probably have no idea how big this event is (why would you) but imagine this, a giant parade filmed live by National TV made especially for kids, and thus yes by default thousands and thousands of kids are present each year, the rest of the country watching. Now, knowing this and the fact that roughly 90 procent of the country disagrees with the protestors I feel it's pretty reasonable to keep those protestors at a safe distance from the crowd and the parade. I'm all for their right to protest, I want them to be heard, but I feel it's pretty harmful to have mass riots in a parada with God knows how many children watching.

/edit
Nevermind

 

[Stet]

Sometimes when I read this thread I feel like people are completely looking past the part where there is actually a change going on. Big changes don't happen overnight, that shouldn't be news for anyone. But I'm pretty sure that even once all ZP's lose their earrings, curly hair and red lips the anti-piet movement still won't be satisfied.

...And their blacked out faces.

 

[Prophet Steve]

I'm pointing out that the premise of the argument that public safety matters above all else would also include the public safety of the ones being oppressed, marginalized, and harmed by the racist caricature. If public safety matters, then the safety of the affected groups also matters.

And everyone would have been more safe if they didn't brought their protest there, no matter how just their cause was. There are more groups the local government had to account for.

For a start, could stop bringing up the fact that they protested at an event where children would be present. It's a children-centric holiday from all I've come to understand, so what do you expect? Also the protesters are not responsible for the aggressive response from the anti-protesters. From what I've read, they are all adults and should know better than to escalate a situation to that level anywhere, not just at a kids event. It's already ridiculous that they are actively fighting for keeping racist imagery.

Why would we stop bringing up that fact? It is the reality of the situation, and instead take into account that that was the case and therefore options got severely limited for the local government. Of course there also lies responsibility with the protesters, when they are explicitly told to not protest there to avoid this.

Of course the anti-protesters should have been reasonable and leave them alone. They shouldn't even existed in the first place. But it was known that that likely wasn't the case and the protest group was made fully aware of why they weren't allowed to protest there, and that was for public safety.

 

[tbm24]

First of all, the anti protesters are idiots, and the government probably knows this, hence why they want to keep them away from the protestors. And you probably have no idea how big this event is (why would you) but imagine this, a giant parade filmed live by National TV made especially for kids, and thus yes by default thousands and thousands of kids are present each year, the rest of the country watching. Now, knowing this and the fact that roughly 90 procent of the country disagrees with the protestors I feel it's pretty reasonable to keep those protestors at a safe distance from the crowd and the parade. I'm all for their right to protest, I want them to be heard, but I feel it's pretty harmful to have mass riots in a parada with God knows how many children watching.

/edit
Nevermind

I can understand all you are saying(except the mass riots bit, would it really come to that? Would depend on what you mean by riot since we might be imagining two different things). Just given the circumstances the protesters have to deal with(especially with you stating that 90% of the country disagrees with them), I'm not sure if say they stayed in their designated areas and continued to do so, that they would be effective in their goals. That remains to be seen I guess.

And everyone would have been more safe if they didn't brought their protest there, no matter how just their cause was. There are more groups the local government had to account for.



Why would we stop bringing up that fact? It is the reality of the situation, and instead take into account that that was the case and therefore options got severely limited for the local government. Of course there also lies responsibility with the protesters, when they are explicitly told to not protest there to avoid this.

Of course the anti-protesters should have been reasonable and leave them alone. They shouldn't even existed in the first place. But it was known that that likely wasn't the case and the protest group was made fully aware of why they weren't allowed to protest there, and that was for public safety.

Personally I don't see how any of their protests are going to be effective if they continually cater to the anti-protesters/governments fear of unrest between them. But again, that will remain to be seen.

 

[Arjen]

I'm sure organisations and people in the Netherlands would be much better at answering that question. My totally uninformed suggestion would be:

• to correct the national tradition
• make a public apology to the ones affected by the now century-long tradition, both past and present.
• Even better, the government could introduce a form of day remembering either the dark colonial atrocities or reversely, make a national day celebrating diversity or people of color in the Netherlands.
• And for the love of all that is holy & mighty, remove the painting on that royal carriage.

But I'm White and not even from the Netherlands, so I shouldn't speak for what other people would prefer to do.

Can't say that I disagree, but people aren't even willing to admit there is a problem, so an apology is a long way ahead.
And if it was me we ditch the whole monarchy including the carriage.

 

[methane47]

What also doesn't really help the anti-piet movement is their way of protesting, as once again demonstrated in Gouda. And like that time that our good friend Quinsy Gario tweeted that "white lives matter more than black lives" when our prime minister paid his respects to the victims of MH17.

On the contrary. I believe that the "In your face" protesting has really pushed the debate to the forefront and sped up the change process.

For comparison people have been silently complaining about zwarte piet since the 1950s, and basically nothing has changed in that time. Now in the last 4 years, its become known world wide, Indigenous dutch folks can no longer down play the situation and pretend like there is nothing wrong with the caricature.

A lot has changed in the last 4 years, especially in terms of awareness.
4 years ago even on Neogaf the prevailing theory was that anyone who disagreed with Zwarte piet was not dutch, and doesn't understand dutch customs. Even people born and raised in Holland. Or others like myself who was born and raised in the Dutch Antilles. All of us offended by it were just written off as sensitive americans.

Now it seems almost everyone recognizes its offensive in some way shape or form.
Atleast we've come that far

 

[Salmonax]

On the contrary. I believe that the "In your face" protesting has really pushed the debate to the forefront and sped up the change process.

Agreed. The idea that protest should be orderly, unobtrusive, and largely out of sight is absolutely ridiculous.

 

[Sadist]

I can understand all you are saying(except the mass riots bit, would it really come to that? Would depend on what you mean by riot since we might be imagining two different things)

We're talking about a country where a Facebook invite for a girl's sweet sixteen party which was sent to everyone and thousands of teenagers/young adults actually traveled to her village for the party, which led to small riots and property damage.

I understand Linus's stance on this one. Holland is weird like that. Big world issues are met with sarcistic comments and some levelheaded discussion, but as soon as "problems" arise on national soil it's a real problem. They'll even do some stupid shit just to prove there's nothing wrong. I'm pretty sure there could be a group of those idiots in this country that would lash out against protesters. Yes, it's sad. I agree. I know this is a hard pill to swallow for some of the GAFers here, but Arjen's post about most folks not seeing the issue is correct. In my area a lot of people are just tired of the discussion and don't think of ZP as a racist character; just a normal guy, but with black face paint.

People expecting some kind of apology in the near future? Maybe in 25 years, or never.

 

[Lime]

Can't say that I disagree, but people aren't even willing to admit there is a problem, so an apology is a long way ahead.
And if it was me we ditch the whole monarchy including the carriage.

I'm glad that we agree

 

[Antagon]

I'm sure organisations and people in the Netherlands would be much better at answering that question. My totally uninformed suggestion would be:

• to correct the national tradition
• make a public apology to the ones affected by the now century-long tradition, both past and present.
• Even better, the government could introduce a form of day remembering either the dark colonial atrocities or reversely, make a national day celebrating diversity or people of color in the Netherlands.
• And for the love of all that is holy & mighty, remove the painting on that royal carriage.

But I'm White and not even from the Netherlands, so I shouldn't speak for what other people would prefer to do.

Don't expect too much from our politicians. I mean, this is our prime minister...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fk2YkZ2gGDI

 

[Loona]

I moved to the Netherlands a few months ago, and this chunk of the local mythology is still pretty striking.

And really, when a part of the Sinterklaas mythos involves almost treating Spain, of all places, as a sort of mythical land,you really get the impression that this is a story from a time when the rest of world felt a lot more distant, so that a foreign country might as well be a fairy land and another ethnicity might as well be alien.

It was, however, pretty surprising in an odd way to find that, when I went to see Guardians of the Galaxy at a movie theater some months ago, that they had a couple of posters there for Sinterklaas-themed movies - one poster was apparently for an animated one, and featured mostly a Sinterklaas silhouette, but the other was live action, had fully painted zwarte piets, and the apparent PoV characters were blonde children.... I wonder if tht movie was new, or if it's something older they recycle almost every year, considering how controversy only appears to be sinking in in recent years...

Still, in other aspects of the celebration, it's interesting to see that the piet image is diversifying a bit, even if with baby steps - seasonal candy have their piets in more orange or tanned tones, some face paintings start to lean toward colors like blue, purple, or unevenly spread marks... baby steps, but it's the sort of thing that might take decades or generation to change in a big way, but at least people are trying.

I'm actually getting the impression that the piets' feathered berets are becoming the characters' defining feature, not the skin/face colors, so that seems like a decent design element to anchor the character on.


I do wonder then, if one day the piets eventually start looking offensive, if the season's cultural clashes will move on to how overtly christian Sinterklaas himself looks.
As it stands, it's the primary icon, and the Santa Claus from other countries isn't that easy to find in comparison, which might be a point of pride for the Dutch when it comes to cultural uniqueness - maybe one of the reasons why some are concerned about criticisms toward the piets?...

BTW, since nobody posted the South Park equivalent controversy yet...

Before:

After:

I only saw the episode recently,but it was an interesting one, what with trying to reach a balance between keeping a sense of history alive and taking into account that the modern world is a bit more diverse than it used to be.

 

[guggnichso]

See also what Günter Wallraff tried to do.

I would not exactely put much weight into Wallraffs statements and articles post 1970. And while there are of course quite large deficits in dealing with minorities here, I think we're on the right way.











Also, when talking about how the US is better equipped in dealing with systemic oppression, I haven't seen police dress up as soldiers and drive tanks through parts of our cities here with large immigrant population. Also we generally refrain from calling other people a different "race" just because their skin looks a bit different.

Spoiler

This statement is meant as a reminder of how different a society looks from the outside when viewed through perception influenced by your own social surroundings. I am not at all serious about it

 

[Linius]

From the last episode of our daily Sinterklaas news programme on public television. Since Sinterklaas is getting a litte old and fragile grandpa Piet is taking over some of his duties. According to Sinterklaas some Piets just carry on working after their retirement.

And that's the end of this years Sinterklaas news. Here's the key scene to this episode. It's only in Dutch of course.