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Dutch Court : "Black Pete" (Zwarte Piet ) Is A Negative Stereotype
- Thread starter Slayven
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Hot Coldman
Banned
next on the chopping block: Mr Popo
GasProblem
Member
Just let everyone be a black Pete with some black smudges on their faces because they crawl though the chimneys. Children won't care.
I remember watching a Sinterklaas movie called White Pete where a white kid wanted to become a Black Pete and smuggles himself onto the boat to Spain to learn how to become a Black Pete, but everyone thinks he's weird because he's not black.
I remember watching a Sinterklaas movie called White Pete where a white kid wanted to become a Black Pete and smuggles himself onto the boat to Spain to learn how to become a Black Pete, but everyone thinks he's weird because he's not black.
MorisUkunRasik
Member
Radical American judge no doubt. Forcing their racist traditions.
As a Dutch guy, I find it interesting to watch Dutch fora on this issue. The amount of casual racism and the hate that the protesters get is terrifying.
Edit: And I don't think that black Pete should be scrapped. Just change his costume to reflect the more modern story (with him being black from soot). Drop the red lips, earrings and wig. Don't apply the black make up evenly. Doesn't really change the holiday at all.
Then again, I've seen people argue that connecting black Pete with Africans is racist, while the image of black Pete in itself is totally harmless...
Edit: And I don't think that black Pete should be scrapped. Just change his costume to reflect the more modern story (with him being black from soot). Drop the red lips, earrings and wig. Don't apply the black make up evenly. Doesn't really change the holiday at all.
Then again, I've seen people argue that connecting black Pete with Africans is racist, while the image of black Pete in itself is totally harmless...
MisterGrey3000
Member
lol
Is Japan still populating it's cartoons with black face caricatures??? I haven't kept up with anime for a while now.
:/
That's extremely dumb as well, but both sides are acting Incredibly stupid around this issue.
real talk, when I was a kid I in no way associated Mr Popo as a racial caricature, I always thought he was just some weird creature
Just a few pointers:
- This was only a court in Amsterdam, nothing has been said for the rest of the Netherlands
- The court only mentioned the 2013 celebration, and nothing has been said about the festival in general (whether or not it is a stereotypical holiday)
- The constitutional law (you can not be racist) has not been found to be broken. So technically, no law has been broken. All that this court decided is that Amsterdam needs to revise their permit for the 2013 festivities.
- Stereotyping is allowed, as long as it doesnt violate other rules.
Do with this information as you will
- This was only a court in Amsterdam, nothing has been said for the rest of the Netherlands
- The court only mentioned the 2013 celebration, and nothing has been said about the festival in general (whether or not it is a stereotypical holiday)
- The constitutional law (you can not be racist) has not been found to be broken. So technically, no law has been broken. All that this court decided is that Amsterdam needs to revise their permit for the 2013 festivities.
- Stereotyping is allowed, as long as it doesnt violate other rules.
Do with this information as you will
rather early for a zwarte pieten thread
Herbspiceguy
Member
I think it's racist to claim that zwarte piet is a negative stereotype.
Yeah I think some Dutch Gaffers where already proposing that.
I believe here in the U.S. they recently changed Mr. Popo's color from black to blue.
why?
Arjen
Member
Two threads in one week, hotdamn.
I gave my 2 cents in the previous thread.
I'll stay out, don't want to get banned during the World Cup.
I gave my 2 cents in the previous thread.
I'll stay out, don't want to get banned during the World Cup.
Herbspiceguy
Member
Feels like I have to dig up old arguments that have been repeated and I don't want this to lead to (another fucking Pete) discussion, but here goes;
It's a character for a kids festivity. Kids do not perceive zwarte piet as a negro/negative stereotype. Zwarte pieten are presented as smart, well spoken, somewhat mischievous assistants, each having a different specialty. They are presented as such in the media/TV programs leading up to 5 December, the shows with what kids consider as the "real" Sinterklaas en Zwarte Pieten.
Kids of all skin color, even in all the 'zwarte' neighbourhoods dress up as zwarte piet and celebrate Sinterklaas.
SliceSabre
Banned
Good ruling. How it couldn't be considered offensive is beyond me.
User 73706
Banned
Is the 'accurate' portrayal of a fictional character really that important to you?
alfredofroylan
Member
And what about Baltasar?
andthebeatgoeson
Junior Member
This is hilarious that a week ago, many claimed few Europeans saw it as racist. What happened? That's like negative credibility.
Dreams-Visions
Member
This seems like the perfect solution. Don't disappoint me, DutchGAF.
So because it's for the kids, that makes a racist image okay? You honestly believe kids would give two shits if they changed the character's look? I'll answer it for you, they wouldn't. They're kids. Forgetting the fact that it's not a real person.
BrassDragon
Member
I just finished reading the verdict and nothing in there suggests that we're looking at the end of Zwarte Piet in the Netherlands.
If you organise a public event over here, you need to get a permit from the municipal authorities. These permits are granted by default unless there are objections over safety or public order. Because these permits come from the government, they cannot contravene national legislation or treaties.
A few claimaints have sued the municipality of Amsterdam because they feel granting a permit to the Sinterklaas parade (which includes Black Petes) was illegal.
Just so we're clear: EVERY town and city in the Netherlands celebrates Sinterklaas in the public space: this case only covers the objections of a handful of citizens in a single city.
The city of Amsterdam counters that there was no reason to refuse the permit because there was no threat to public order or safety.
However, the Netherlands have signed European treaties guaranteeing the dignity of private persons. Because Zwarte Piet is rooted in a negative stereotyping of people of colour, the court allows that the claimaints have a case that their dignity has been compromised by public displays of Zwarte Piet. However, in the judge's opinion, the affront to their dignity is not sufficiently grave to declare the granting of the permit a violation of our human rights treaties (I wonder if the claimants will seek to appeal this before a European court.)
This does NOT mean that Zwarte Piet is now forbidden and can't legally be part of the festivities. The court has only stated that the grievances of the claimants are genuine and admonishes the municipality to weigh this grievance against the interests of other parties when giving out permits in the future.
Despite this admonishment, there was no legal reason for Amsterdam to deny the permit.
The public debate will continue and I'm sure we'll see change to Zwarte Piet. But no international pressure or legal wrangling is going to speed up this process. Sorry.
If you organise a public event over here, you need to get a permit from the municipal authorities. These permits are granted by default unless there are objections over safety or public order. Because these permits come from the government, they cannot contravene national legislation or treaties.
A few claimaints have sued the municipality of Amsterdam because they feel granting a permit to the Sinterklaas parade (which includes Black Petes) was illegal.
Just so we're clear: EVERY town and city in the Netherlands celebrates Sinterklaas in the public space: this case only covers the objections of a handful of citizens in a single city.
The city of Amsterdam counters that there was no reason to refuse the permit because there was no threat to public order or safety.
However, the Netherlands have signed European treaties guaranteeing the dignity of private persons. Because Zwarte Piet is rooted in a negative stereotyping of people of colour, the court allows that the claimaints have a case that their dignity has been compromised by public displays of Zwarte Piet. However, in the judge's opinion, the affront to their dignity is not sufficiently grave to declare the granting of the permit a violation of our human rights treaties (I wonder if the claimants will seek to appeal this before a European court.)
This does NOT mean that Zwarte Piet is now forbidden and can't legally be part of the festivities. The court has only stated that the grievances of the claimants are genuine and admonishes the municipality to weigh this grievance against the interests of other parties when giving out permits in the future.
Despite this admonishment, there was no legal reason for Amsterdam to deny the permit.
The public debate will continue and I'm sure we'll see change to Zwarte Piet. But no international pressure or legal wrangling is going to speed up this process. Sorry.
BrassDragon
Member
Yes, a handful of activists suing one municipality out of 403 in a single country and not even winning their case is a major shift in public opinion.
Not really.
Yes, poor children. How can they live without a fantasy character in their life. It must be suffering the kind the world has never seen.
andthebeatgoeson
Junior Member
That's not what I said. But the ruling contradicts the terrible logic of 'not many of us see it as offensive so it can't be offensive' and 'just Americans projecting'.
sixteen-bit
Member
Popo is recolored blue in DBKai IIRC. Looks like a DQ slime.
Me neither. As a kid I always thought he was dope. Ignorance was so blissful back then.
What about him?And what about Baltasar?
MWS Natural
Member
Awaiting the incoming backlash and emergence of the Dutch version of Fox news.
LicenceToK1ll
Member
The article is ok this time but the comments lol typical Telegraaf.
It's definitely Americas fault for inherent racism in another countries holiday
I was more referencing the argument in the post insinuating all Europeans are without honesty or intelligence. We can discuss cultural imperialism if you would like.
Gordon Shumway
Banned
Well..who'd of thunk it?
And what about Baltasar?
As long as blackface isn't involved no problem there.
Good post, I'm quoting it in case people missed it the first time.
Entirely reasonable judgment, I wonder how the city will react.
The Faceless Master
Member
activist judge...
but seriously... would the kids REALLY care if their favorite holiday heroes just suddenly stopped appearing with blackface, steel wool hair or nigger lips and simply still dressed up in the fancy clothes and did everything else the exact same?
but seriously... would the kids REALLY care if their favorite holiday heroes just suddenly stopped appearing with blackface, steel wool hair or nigger lips and simply still dressed up in the fancy clothes and did everything else the exact same?
Baconsaurus Rex
Member
You'd only have to wait for one or two generations and the kids wouldn't know better.
Yeah, its the people offended by racial caricatures that are the racists. :/
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