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[HovaHovito]

I am through with this thread. If you can't see how blackface being offensive stems from America's history with slavery and minstrel shows and how that doesn't apply to another country's culture then I don't know what else to tell you. Our history, and the garbage that stemmed from it, doesn't apply to other countries.

Im def not thinking about any of that. I've already said why its not acceptable to paint yourself black

 

[itsgreen]

What? How? I already said its the equivalent of someone stretching their skin to mock asians

It is for you equivalent.

Because, and I am not American, so I don't know exactly it was widely used to mock black people in the States.

That isn't the case in the Netherlands. So what you interpret as mocking a black man, isn't interpreted here as the default mocking a black man, and when it isn't mocking a black man it isn't being viewed that way.

 

[Goku]

Question. For manu native American tribes, Thanksgiving is not a day in which one has to be thankful. They see Thankgiving as the start of a tragic proces in which they started to loose their land, and their population. Every year Wampanoags and other tribes come together on Thanksgiving day in Plymouth to commemorate their "national mourn day".

So.. why is Thanksgiving still around?

 

[Nethaniah]

Im def not thinking about any of that. I've already said why i think its not acceptable to paint yourself black

Fixed.

 

[KanyeEast]

What? WHAAAT? Are people now saying that the Dutch didn't do anything with slavery? That the Americans have more connection with slavery and blackface? I think you people need to see a doctor immediately. You guys are just defending zwarte piet for the sake of just defending it. None of you arguments make any sense.

 

[Scipius]

Question. For manu native American tribes, Thanksgiving is not a day in which one has to be thankful. They see Thankgiving as the start of a tragic proces in which they started to loose their land, and their population. Every year Wampanoags and other tribes come together on Thanksgiving day in Plymouth to commemorate their "national mourn day".

So.. why is Thanksgiving still around?

I used the analogy to Thanksgiving last year, but people just ignore it (or call you crazy). American society simply hasn't yet come to terms with how it has treated its Amerindian population, at least not to the extent it tries to with its history of slavery.

 

[itsgreen]

What? WHAAAT? Are people now saying that the Dutch didn't do anything with slavery? That the Americans have more connection with slavery and blackface? I think you people need to see a doctor immediately. You guys are just defending zwarte piet for the sake of just defending it. None of you arguments make any sense.

 

[Arjen]

Im not even talking about slavery, its blackface lol. Its insensitive and wrong

Hardly anyone here have even heard of Blackface. Like i said, i think we should adapt the imagery of Zwarte Piet to make the soot story more believable. But people should stop bringing the Blackface argument into this discussion, we don't have any history with Blackface whatsoever.

 

[Artemisia]

You tell me:

I'm laughing at this post so hard. Yeah a couple of black people smiling in the streets represent a community. lmao.

 

[antonz]

You could update it. The same people who are defending zwarte piet are againt islam. The argument is that islam is old and backwards. But when it is zwarte piet it's "tradition". I cannot take that shit serious.

Wait wait wait. You are making a huge leap to claim people who support holiday traditions automatically hate islam. One harms no one while the other has been hijacked and used to justify the killing of countles human beings because they are infidels.

What I see is alot of people from around the world who have no context or are used to the America is the way and the light and the truth so you must view the world the American way or no way at all.

America isn't the only viewpoint

I sure am glad with all the problems in the world A Christmas tradition is so fucking important to the UN

 

[Roi]

I'm laughing at this post so hard. Yeah a couple of black people smiling in the streets represent a community. lmao.

How is the 0.1% of the people protesting a better representation?

Polls show that 95% of the population doesn't see anything racist about the tradition, those are people from any race!

 

[neorej]

I'm laughing at this post so hard. Yeah a couple of black people smiling in the streets represent a community. lmao.

On the other hand, a handful of people complaining apparently DOES represent a community. We're talking about 4% of the population here.

In the meantime, children in Syria are dying, African children and women are traded and sold as slaves, sweatshops are still a real thing, human rights are not globally accepted and enforced and to top it all of, the entire world is in an economic and financial crisis. Yeah, let's clear all that stuff off of the agenda because there's a fictional character in Dutch folklore that might or might not be racist, but definitely offends a whopping 4% of the Dutch population, 640.000 people.

Let's put that into perspective:
In Syria, 120.000 people were killed according to a UN report in september 2013. Estimates range from 4.5 million to 5.1 million people on the run within Syria because of this conflict. Over 2 million people in refugeecamps.

We can't be brought to bring this humanitarian disaster to an end, but we are spending time, money and resources on a handful of people who are offended by Mr Popo?

I'm not saying two wrongs make a right, but for fucks sake, get your priorities straight before trodding along with a Dutch "artist" who starts this shit on a yearly basis just to get some attention, because he's not getting any through his work.
I promise; once we solved the real shit in the world, we'll get down to resolving this Piet-thing once and for all, but untill then I think we've got bigger fish to fry.

 

[Lapidus' Beard]

You could update it. The same people who are defending zwarte piet are againt islam. The argument is that islam is old and backwards. But when it is zwarte piet it's "tradition". I cannot take that shit serious.

Today in generalization...

 

[Dead Man]

Hardly anyone here have even heard of Blackface. Like i said, i think we should adapt the imagery of Zwarte Piet to make the soot story more believable. But people should stop bringing the Blackface argument into this discussion, we don't have any history with Blackface whatsoever.

Don't be all reasonable, nobody cares for that.

 

[TedNindo]

Sometimes I get the idea Americans should travel more and experience other cultures. Because sometimes they come across as really ignorant to other cultures.

You aren't the center of the world.

 

[soepje]

Don't be all reasonable, nobody cares for that.

Lol, this one got me good.

 

[daxy]

It's not associated with slavery because it's like Dutch Christmas. I don't think about Coca Cola when it's Christmas and go ranting about consumerism and capitalism.

 

[MisterFalcon]

We can't be brought to bring this humanitarian disaster to an end, but we are spending time, money and resources on a handful of people who are offended by Mr Popo?

The real human rights abuses take place in dangerous countries with a lack of four star hotels for the UN staff to stay during their investigations.

 

[Arjen]

Don't be all reasonable, nobody cares for that.

I'm sorry

 

[Dead Man]

I'm sorry

Accepted, but be better.

 

[Caayn]

The real human rights abuses take place in dangerous countries with a lack of four star hotels for the UN staff to stay during their investigations.

I suggest you re-read his/her post

 

[richiek]

What? WHAAAT? Are people now saying that the Dutch didn't do anything with slavery? That the Americans have more connection with slavery and blackface? I think you people need to see a doctor immediately. You guys are just defending zwarte piet for the sake of just defending it. None of you arguments make any sense.

There's also the matter of the Dutch involvement of settling South Africa, leading to apartheid.

 

[IceCold]

But the average Dutch had very little interactions with black people unlike the US. All of this stuff happened in their colonies.

 

[Pand]

As a Dutchman I would have no problem at all changing Piet to something less questionable. He's a caricature, whatever the rubbish excuses we come up with. The fact that this is apparent to people who don't have the same traditions as us should be a warning sign, but instead we act like it's an attack on our sacred heritage. Besides, it's not like kids give a fuck about what Piet looks like. Hell, if we would change it today, we'd probably look back at Zwarte Piet in ten years time and find it hard to believe we ever fought so hard to keep him.

Having said that, those comments Shepherd made don't help at all. Calling for the abolishment of an entire holiday just because one element is shady is a bizarre overreaction.

 

[Kinyou]

As a Dutchman I would have no problem at all changing Piet to something less questionable. He's a caricature, whatever the rubbish excuses we come up with. The fact that this is apparent to people who don't have the same traditions as us should be a warning sign, but instead we act like it's an attack on our sacred heritage. Besides, it's not like kids give a fuck about what Piet looks like. Hell, if we would change it today, we'd probably look back at Zwarte Piet in ten years time and find it hard to believe we ever fought so hard to keep him.

Having said that, those comments Shepherd made don't help at all. Calling for the abolishment of an entire holiday just because one element is shady is a bizarre overreaction.

Switch Piet with our Krampus

Kids will love it

 

[neorej]

As a Dutchman I would have no problem at all changing Piet to something less questionable. He's a caricature, whatever the rubbish excuses we come up with. The fact that this is apparent to people who don't have the same traditions as us should be a warning sign, but instead we act like it's an attack on our sacred heritage. Besides, it's not like kids give a fuck about what Piet looks like. Hell, if we would change it today, we'd probably look back at Zwarte Piet in ten years time and find it hard to believe we ever fought so hard to keep him.

Having said that, those comments Shepherd made don't help at all. Calling for the abolishment of an entire holiday just because one element is shady is a bizarre overreaction.

As I've said before, let's call Piet Hajji Firuz instead and be done with it. It's the same caricature, except for some magic reason Hajji Firuz is protected by UNESCO.

Edit:

My daughter will love Krampus. I raised her on the Alien and Predator movies.

 

[Deleted member 13876]

As a Dutchman I would have no problem at all changing Piet to something less questionable. He's a caricature, whatever the rubbish excuses we come up with. The fact that this is apparent to people who don't have the same traditions as us should be a warning sign, but instead we act like it's an attack on our sacred heritage. Besides, it's not like kids give a fuck about what Piet looks like. Hell, if we would change it today, we'd probably look back at Zwarte Piet in ten years time and find it hard to believe we ever fought so hard to keep him.

Having said that, those comments Shepherd made don't help at all. Calling for the abolishment of an entire holiday just because one element is shady is a bizarre overreaction.

Pretty much sums up how I feel about it. I can see why there's an outrage, but yelling "why do you need two Santas?" and other uninformed statements also comes across rather ignorant to the people already confused about why this is a big deal for others. You'd think they'd at least investigate the issue more before issuing a statement about it.

Krampus would be hilarious.

 

[Deleted member 1235]

There's also the matter of the Dutch involvement of settling South Africa, leading to apartheid.

come now, that's like saying it's englands fault black guys can't catch a break in america now.

 

[Dead Man]

As I've said before, let's call Piet Hajji Firuz instead and be done with it. It's the same caricature, except for some magic reason Hajji Firuz is protected by UNESCO.

Edit:

My daughter will love Krampus. I raised her on the Alien and Predator movies.

LOL, just googled Hajji Firuz. Not too much difference visually.

 

[FreeMufasa]

It's da soot from da chimney smoke make da lipst red

 

[Scipius]

I've said before that they should go fully black; and pitch black at that. Black hair, black face, black clothes. It preserves the tradition of the dark companion, the use of the name "Zwarte Piet" and brings back some measure of a frightening appearance like Krampus (give him back the rod as well).

Get rid of the bright colours, the red lips and the Moorish/African origins; emphasize their supernatural nature and deemphasize any analogy to humans.

It won't satisfy the people who consider anyone painting their face black to be offensive, but these people are not generally open to reason or compromise anyway. Their complaints can become part of the Sinterklaas tradition in their own way.

 

[Pand]

It's da soot from da chimney smoke make da lipst red

I recently heard someone make the excuse, on national television no less, that his lips are red because when he's going a chimney they chafe against the sides. It's that kind of rhetoric that makes this whole discussion so exasperating and surreal. Some people are just unwilling to even entertain the notion that something may be awry.

 

[Arjen]

As I've said before, let's call Piet Hajji Firuz instead and be done with it. It's the same caricature, except for some magic reason Hajji Firuz is protected by UNESCO.

Lol, that look is damn near similar. He could be on the Sinterklaas boat and totally blend in with rest.

 

[Scipius]

I recently heard someone make the excuse, on national television no less, that his lips are red because when he's going a chimney they chafe against the sides. It's that kind of rhetoric that makes this whole discussion so exasperating and surreal. Some people are just unwilling to even entertain the notion that something may be awry.

It's the reverse really; the soot story is obviously a fiction, but it's an acknowledgement that the negroid imagery is not intended to be an actual representation of black people, even if it may have been at first. The role and image of Zwarte Piet has been evolving away from the 19th century caricature for decades and will continue to do so.

It is rather the simplistic antagonism of the current critics that causes people to stick their heels in the sand and you get the awkward situation of one of the world's most liberal societies defending an ostensibly racist image.

 

[LNBL]

As I've said before, let's call Piet Hajji Firuz instead and be done with it. It's the same caricature, except for some magic reason Hajji Firuz is protected by UNESCO.

Edit:

My daughter will love Krampus. I raised her on the Alien and Predator movies.

Haha they do indeed almost look the same.

 

[Metrotab]

It is rather the simplistic antagonism of the current critics that causes people to stick their heels in the sand and you get the awkward situation of one of the world's most liberal societies defending an ostensibly racist image.

2 liberal societies even, with a distinct cultural and political sphere.

 

[itsgreen]

Nice piece of stat btw:

The pro Sinterklaas festivities 'Pietition' Facebook page got over a million likes within a day.

The biggest FB page of the Netherlands. Within a day. Easily.

By comparison the 'Anti Zwarte Piet' FB page has 7000 likes in three years.

 

[Dude Abides]

Nice piece of stat btw:

The pro Sinterklaas festivities 'Pietition' Facebook page got over a million likes within a day.

The biggest FB page of the Netherlands. Within a day. Easily.

By comparison the 'Anti Zwarte Piet' FB page has 7000 likes in three years.

So what?

 

[Pand]

It's the reverse really; the soot story is obviously a fiction, but it's an acknowledgement that the negroid imagery is not intended to be an actual representation of black people, even if it may have been at first. The role and image of Zwarte Piet has been evolving away from the 19th century caricature for decades and will continue to do so.

I understand why the soot story is necessary to create some distance between the original and current Piet, but this particular defense struck me as hilariously far-fetched and and a good example of the mental contortions the Dutch have to perform to justify the particulars.

It is rather the simplistic antagonism of the current critics that causes people to stick their heels in the sand and you get the awkward situation of one of the world's most liberal societies defending an ostensibly racist image.

Well said. There doesn't seem to be a lot of room for reasonable discussion in the current climate.

 

[Jackben]

The 'Anti Zwarte Piet' FB page has 7000 likes in three years.

Official One Direction Fan page got 3 million in 1 day.

Case closed.

 

[PjotrStroganov]

The 'Anti Zwarte Piet' FB page has 7000 likes in three years.

Official One Direction Fan page got 3 million in 1 day.

Case closed.

Drogreden. Win je geen discussie mee tegen mensen die maar een hint van argumentatie gebruiken.

 

[Joni]

Bart Peeters, the Flemish guy that got to visit Sinterklaas and Zwarte Piet a couple of years back in Dag Sinterklaas, said something intelligent on how to make the transfer. There are less chimneys so less soot so it is normal they remain white now.

 

[Jackben]

Drogreden. Win je geen discussie mee tegen mensen die maar een hint van argumentatie gebruiken.

Yep. Just trying to highlight how ridiculous it is to equate 'number of likes' on Facebook to mean anything.

 

[ElectricBlue187]

No one has yet to explain to me why the dude can't look like a guy whose gone through a chimney instead of an African caricature.

Why not make him look like a dude that went through a chimney then instead of an African caricature?

 

[itsgreen]

Why not make him look like a dude that went through a chimney then instead of an African caricature?

Why does it matter what he looks like? And judge him based on his actions and what he represents.

To me it is just a bit racist to judge someone based on their looks. Hey but that's just me.

 

[Azih]

Why does it matter what he looks like?

It's what racist caricatures are built on.

The argument that you don't change tradition is such complete bullshit. Zwarte Piet hasn't been around since the dawn of time, it was created at some point (Get it, CHANGING TRADITION). It's already evolved to be somewhat less offensive than it used to be in the last few decades so there's no reason to draw a dumb line in the sand around your own nostalgia to prevent there from being more. Make them multicoloured, get rid of the god damn stupid lips and nappy wigs. God.

Edit: Keep the good traditions, junk the dumb ones. That's what progress is.

 

[Kiraly]

An initiative in some town to use rainbow coloured pieten this year was called off because the organisers were harassed and threatened.

 

[Pand]

An initiative in some town to use rainbow coloured pieten this year was called off because the organisers were harassed and threatened.

I'm not surprised. Just goes to show how emotional and unreasonable the discussion has become.

 

[itsgreen]

An initiative in some town to use rainbow coloured pieten this year was called off because the organisers were harassed and threatened.

Yeah, I hope they find and arrest the people who did that. There is no sense making those kind of remarks.

 

[Dilly]

You could update it. The same people who are defending zwarte piet are againt islam. The argument is that islam is old and backwards. But when it is zwarte piet it's "tradition". I cannot take that shit serious.

I cannot take this shit serious.

Anyway, screw the VN. Just use the black make-up to apply some smudges instead of a full black-colored face and keep the rest.