Jackben
bitch I'm taking calls.
This is literally a word for word copy paste job from your post in the last thread last year.The whole town celebrates:
This is literally a word for word copy paste job from your post in the last thread last year.The whole town celebrates:
The people who say that zwarte piet isn't meant to be racial are being a little incredulous. Imagine if a country created an asian face caricature. The face has small eyes, is short etc. And that caricature overtime becomes an honored tradition. Would it not still be offensive to asian people? Should asian people not be offended just because the current culture of the country that uses it does not see it as offensive? I am using this as an example but it's this line of thinking that europeans should take into account when they think of zwarte piet.
The people who say that zwarte piet isn't meant to be racial are being a little incredulous. Imagine if a country created an asian face caricature. The face has small eyes, is short etc. And that caricature overtime becomes an honored tradition. Would it not still be offensive to asian people? Should asian people not be offended just because the current culture of the country that uses it does not see it as offensive? I am using this as an example but it's this line of thinking that europeans should take into account when they think of zwarte piet.
See e.g.
Just leave our traditions alone. People always have to have something to bitch about.
No kid in our country that I know associates Zwarte Piet with racism. This whole discussion is beyond stupid.
They used to represent Satan, devils. Good behavior got rewarded, bad behavior punished. The story even includes a book, kind of like the Book of Life, which kept track of everything you did. Social control at it's best. The reason he came from Spain is because of our ties with Spain due to the Eighty Years' War (or Dutch War of Independence) and our common enemy. And we might not have Blackface but we where once the world's biggest slave traders.Though Zwarte Piet isn't really considered a black person. More like an elf or another mythical person. For most people in the Netherlands there is no history with blackface so a connection isn't really made. Kids all want to dress up like Piet because he's such an awesome person.
How about we address both? How does one wrong make another right?If you're so concerned about hurting people's feelings, take a long hard look in your own backyard first, then we'll start discussing Zwarte Piet and its etymology.
We already do. There is a ton of controversy within our country and Washington state as another example of this very issue. It takes 2 seconds to google Washington Redskins controversy to see that it is a big deal. We take things like that and the Cleveland Indians into discussion because many people do not like it.Can someone explain how the Washington Redskins are still existent in a country that has issues with a supposed racial caricature in a much smaller country across the ocean?
If you're so concerned about hurting people's feelings, take a long hard look in your own backyard first, then we'll start discussing Zwarte Piet and its etymology.
To be honest I am not sure this is a good comparison. While Zwarte Piet was indeed a caricature of a Moor, the people have tried actively to remove this association (saying it is soot, not skincolour, removing the golden earrings, making him smart instead of stupid, removing his accent etc). I am not saying they have succeeded entirely in that (see my previous posts for my stance) but has that been done with the Native American caricature you posted?
So a racist history is okay as long and you try to hide its origin over the years?
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So a racist history is okay as long and you try to hide its origin over the years?
To be honest I am not sure this is a good comparison. While Zwarte Piet was indeed a caricature of a Moor, the people have tried actively to remove this association (saying it is soot, not skincolour, removing the golden earrings, making him smart instead of stupid, removing his accent etc). I am not saying they have succeeded entirely in that (see my previous posts for my stance) but has that been done with the Native American caricature you posted?
Is it really hiding when you change it? I would say it's more acknowledging that it's wrong and then fixing it by changing it.
Can someone explain how the Washington Redskins are still existent in a country that has issues with a supposed racial caricature in a much smaller country across the ocean?
I guess the only reason I said "hiding" is because most in here defending the tradition don't seem willing to even say its history is racist. I get that it isn't thought of that way today and the kiddos don't see it that way either. But if anyone can't see its origin is racist, they are hiding something from themselves.
Tence said:Zwarte Piets background is indeed racial, no use in denying that. Him being black from the soot is something more recent (recent as in last 30 years or so) for me kids associating it with soot is a positive development.
The fact people these day and age don't consider Zwarte Piet a black slave does not mean the origins arent racist though.
All those bullshit excuses are just that, bullshit.what i dont get if its zoot. why the afro and red lips?
But then it is odd that you quote me, while my first post in this topic actually was this:
This is a positive development, and if in future other aspects that make this more of a racial caricature are toned down or removed, I think that would be excellent.
I was quoting the sentiment...the rationalization that of "this is better than that because its history has been modified over time'. I see both examples as fairly equal...not very harmful in modern times but both containing a racist hurtful history due to their origins.
I wasn't quoting your previous thought or posst...it wasn't an attack on you personally.
It is defiantly problematic, but even more disturbing is people don't recognizing it only because they can't or won't imagine what it is for someone who had slaves as ancestors. They keep saying that no one complains which is complete bull, they are just not being heard. Every time a camera crew is interviewing random people then not only those of African descent, but most darker skinned people think it's racist and offensive. If you don't see a lot of dark skinned people taking orders from a single white skinned person who's holding a staff/scepter then there is something wrong with you and you live in your own world.But at this point, those elements have become part of the character itself. People who dress up as Zwarte Piet will get a wig and color their lips red. Not because they want to caricature a race of people, but because those are simply elements belonging to Zwarte Piet. Are these people really being racist? And is this really problematic?
Zwarte Piet is a caricature of a character that also happens to be black.
Making an issue out of his skin color, especially when it has lost its meaning (whatever that might have been) is what is racist.
If you want Zwarte Piet to come in different colors, or if you want to get rid of him because he is black, or if you are offended by it, then you're a fucking racist.
Zwarte Piet is a caricature of a character that also happens to be black.
Making an issue out of his skin color, especially when it has lost its meaning (whatever that might have been) is what is racist.
If you want Zwarte Piet to come in different colors, or if you want to get rid of him because he is black, or if you are offended by it, then you're a fucking racist.
Nope. If someone dressed up as Obama and put dark makeup on, it would be considered extremely racist and in poor taste. Even if the makeup wasn't heavily stereotyped (Aka no big red lips), we'd probably have a media freakout.I am not that familiar with the term blackface, but is wearing make-up to look like a dark-skinned person always found offensive in the US? Or is blackface more a thing that people do to make fun of others?
For instance: could you dress up as say President Obama and put dark make-up on?
There are two forms of blackface. The first is the ministrel show approach of making someone into a caricature, which can be done with both white and black actors. The second is the hollywood approach of making a white actor look black because the studio is unwilling to hire black actors.Blackface is a very specific thing that exaggerates racial characteristics but in the past few years some people have used it to mean any attempt to look like a black person. Using it that way is incorrect though.
.I thought it was soot.
There are two forms of blackface. The first is the ministrel show approach of making someone into a caricature, which can be done with both white and black actors. The second is the hollywood approach of making a white actor look black because the studio is unwilling to hire black actors.
Zwarte Piet definitely falls into the caricature category, but he also isn't based on the same basis as the American perception of blackface.
Wasn't Sinterklaas actually Odin?
"They both ride a white horse in the skies,wear a white beard, a cloak and a spear/cosier. They both have black helpers. They try to support goodness and dispel evil through knowledge."
In Norse mythology, svartálfar (Old Norse "swart elves" or "black elves", singular svartálfr) are beings who dwell in Svartálfaheimr ("world of black-elves").
You tell me:Are black people actually offended by it?
Are black people actually offended by it?
It is defiantly problematic, but even more disturbing is people don't recognizing it only because they can't or won't imagine what it is for someone who had slaves as ancestors. They keep saying that no one complains which is complete bull, they are just not being heard. Every time a camera crew is interviewing random people then not only those of African descent, but most darker skinned people think it's racist and offensive. If you don't see a lot of dark skinned people taking orders from a single white skinned person who's holding a staff/scepter then there is something wrong with you and you live in your own world.
What a BS. This doesn't proof anything and when they did a polling a large majority was offended by it. There where black people in neo-nazi groups as well as in the KKK. Does that proof they are not racist groups that spread hate?You tell me:
Keep justifying it to yourself. And that you don't see i believe.I'm just not seeing the evidence of Zwarte Piet being a problem.
Are black people actually offended by it?
Are black people actually offended by it?
Black Friday talks and Black Peter defence force. That's how I know it's the holiday season.Racial discrimination is racism too, and that is exactly what the Zwarte Pieten haters are doing.
I thought it was soot.
Racist against who? White people who dress up as black people?
I know there are black Dutch people offended by it, but I think it's a small group. It's the same group who carry a lot of resentment for what the "whites" did during the high times of the West Indian Company.
The younger generations seem fine with celebrating Sinterklaas. They will even dress up as zwarte Piet themselves.
It's so early, we might even have 2 this year. Oh joy.
Keep justifying it to yourself. And that you don't see i believe.
Edit: are you oke with changing it to white people wearing ridiculous outfits working for a single dark skinned man who hold a staff/scepter? Then we might have a acceptable change.
that doesn't align with the folklore.
There never was a single unchanged folklore! So it's oke that it has changed in the past but in the moment you are alive it's not oke? And all the excuses are just for the adult. Children don't really care, as long as they have present, festivities and something to fantasies about.