I'm surprised we haven't seen a grimdark Zarte Piet ala American McGee's Alice games.
I'm sure lips get really red from all that chimney soot.
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Zwarte Piet is a throwback to slavery, says UN working party chief
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SecretSphere
Member
Also at Bonaire:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjdDh7kn8Aw
And Aruba:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0rgJa2C2vI
Chuckie
Member
Wow, this topic (much like the traditional sinterklaas candy) comes earlier every year.
Well ok, I'll give my two eurocents. (Translated from my post in Dutch GAF)
Zwarte Piets background is indeed racial, no use in denying that. Him being black from the soot is something more recent (recent as in last 30 years or so) for me kids associating it with soot is a positive development.
The fact people these day and age don't consider Zwarte Piet a black slave does not mean the origins arent racist though.
As a white person I cannot decide for a black person what he or she considers racist, just as I cannot decide for a woman what she considers sexist.
If there is a growing group of people who are hurt by this tradition, I think it would be a good idea to start reconsidering it. The fact that the majority of the Dutch approve of it is only worth anything if this also includes the majority of our minorities.
Democracy is only a true democracy if it protects the minority, otherwise it is just a tyranny of the majority.
I think it would be a good idea to continue taking out racial elements (which we have been doing already for the last 30 years) Make it more obvious it is soot and not dark skin.
That being said, the UN should probably be working on bigger issues in this world.
Well ok, I'll give my two eurocents. (Translated from my post in Dutch GAF)
Zwarte Piets background is indeed racial, no use in denying that. Him being black from the soot is something more recent (recent as in last 30 years or so) for me kids associating it with soot is a positive development.
The fact people these day and age don't consider Zwarte Piet a black slave does not mean the origins arent racist though.
As a white person I cannot decide for a black person what he or she considers racist, just as I cannot decide for a woman what she considers sexist.
If there is a growing group of people who are hurt by this tradition, I think it would be a good idea to start reconsidering it. The fact that the majority of the Dutch approve of it is only worth anything if this also includes the majority of our minorities.
Democracy is only a true democracy if it protects the minority, otherwise it is just a tyranny of the majority.
I think it would be a good idea to continue taking out racial elements (which we have been doing already for the last 30 years) Make it more obvious it is soot and not dark skin.
That being said, the UN should probably be working on bigger issues in this world.
So fucking tired of this shit year in year out. Just get rid if it already. I don't care if it's a traditon. It's not worth the discussion. Is the imagery racist? Definitely. Are the festivities racist? No. So let's get with the times and change the imagery so we can just get on with our lives without all this endless bickering.
/Dutch guy chiming in.
/Dutch guy chiming in.
I'm not Dutch, I think I've made my stance clear.
I doubt that making the skin less black and more brown is going to change much though. >_>;
Dropping the wig and red lips would though.
Goldrusher
Member
Pretty racist to allow it with white skin (clowns), but not with black skin (zwarte piet).
Why can't we have black clowns? That's essentially what they are.
Not Spaceghost
Spaceghost
Honestly as a kid growing up in the netherlands, the Zwarte Piet were the worst fucking part of Sinterklaas visiting the British School. They were nightmare fuel for me. Something about their mannerisms and costumes gave me the heebs.
PjotrStroganov
Member
I completely agree. I'm ashamed of the knee jerk reactions my fellow Dutchman display against well thought out arguments like these.
That won't make it less racist either. If they really want it to be less racist then they would have to go back to how it was celebrated before the 1800s without the ''Zwarte Piet'' and only keep celebrating the ''holy'' man ''Nicolaas van Myra'' aka Sinterklaas.
Because chimney excuse would work then. We already dropped the golden earing thing anyway.
Clowns are not referring to a specific race though afaik.
Nah, the chimney idea is pretty good. Kids believe in it and it would a more natural transition.
Arjen
Member
They should adapt to the chimney story more, black smudges instead off all black, and get rid of the red lips. This has to happen gradually and from within the Dutch community itself, not an outside source like the UN.
It's one of my favorite holidays and I hope it will still be around and just as fun if I ever have kids to celebrate it with.
It's one of my favorite holidays and I hope it will still be around and just as fun if I ever have kids to celebrate it with.
Woah, a social justice warrior needs to tell these folks that they're being incredibly offensive to themselves ASAP.
Then animal lovers will start hating, they'll all be like wtf why they look like ''Human'' Dalmatiërs... XD
Kiraly
Member
Looks like she really read up on the subject.
Looks like she also has got a conclusion already while the investigation is still ongoing. What is up with that?
Funny how the Nowruz and its Hajji Firuz is actually recognized by the UN and registered on the UNESCO Intangible Cultural Heritage List.
Looks like she also has got a conclusion already while the investigation is still ongoing. What is up with that?
Funny how the Nowruz and its Hajji Firuz is actually recognized by the UN and registered on the UNESCO Intangible Cultural Heritage List.
Blue Ninja
Member
Yeah, me too. I honestly don't see the problem with it, but it seems a lot of people do, and I'm honestly tired of discussing it. I've never thought of Zwarte Piet as 'inferior' in any way, and I've celebrated Sinterklaas each year during my childhood.
If it's really that big of a deal, they should just drop the 'Zwarte' part and make Piet be able to be anyone.
Hmmm, a touchy subject for sure. This is beyond my casual level of napkin morality musings.
From a quick wiki visit I'd argue that associating "stereotypical black people" with Santa and casting them as his helpers is per se a good thing, as it gives young'uns a positive perspective on that skin colour and hopefully tears down some barriers (should they exist). I know I loved anyone whose role it was to give me candy and make me laugh as a kiddo. That means I'd roll back the "soot" angle and just go all-in. I hope that the positive association stays intact whenever this is resolved. Simplistic to a fault, but we need more black people in our daily lives, not less.
(The German Krampus is a white guy, scary as fuck, and he'll stuff you in a sack and take you away if you've been naughty. I much prefer the Netherlands approach to this Nikolaus helper thing.
)
That said, does it have to be a white guy with black face paint, or could the actual black community work together and produce "authentic" Piets? Can they do this in a sort of "black people appreciation" way, a badge of honour, so to speak? Does it have to be lipstick and golden earrings? Can this be changed without losing an iconic look, which is incredibly important for these kind of things?
The racist part is obviously not OK, but with this being a long-held tradition it's gonna be hard to find a solution. Traditions are always in flow, so change is not unheard of, but this is a pretty complicated issue.
From a quick wiki visit I'd argue that associating "stereotypical black people" with Santa and casting them as his helpers is per se a good thing, as it gives young'uns a positive perspective on that skin colour and hopefully tears down some barriers (should they exist). I know I loved anyone whose role it was to give me candy and make me laugh as a kiddo. That means I'd roll back the "soot" angle and just go all-in. I hope that the positive association stays intact whenever this is resolved. Simplistic to a fault, but we need more black people in our daily lives, not less.
(The German Krampus is a white guy, scary as fuck, and he'll stuff you in a sack and take you away if you've been naughty. I much prefer the Netherlands approach to this Nikolaus helper thing.
)That said, does it have to be a white guy with black face paint, or could the actual black community work together and produce "authentic" Piets? Can they do this in a sort of "black people appreciation" way, a badge of honour, so to speak? Does it have to be lipstick and golden earrings? Can this be changed without losing an iconic look, which is incredibly important for these kind of things?
The racist part is obviously not OK, but with this being a long-held tradition it's gonna be hard to find a solution. Traditions are always in flow, so change is not unheard of, but this is a pretty complicated issue.
I had no idea what this was when I opened the thread so I guess I came in with an open mind.... but with American perspectives. So I just read the Zwarte Piet entry on wikipedia.
My thoughts are that things change with time so although its intention probably currently isn't meant to be racist, it almost certain started as a racially motivated myth. Whether or not the tradition itself is racist, the imagery plainly is. So this "elf" who previously was none too bright (though that has recently changed) is a servant dressed in Moorish clothing and he accompanies Saint Nicholas, right? Sounds like the origin story is pretty slave-based to me. *shrug*
As a Dutch person, I am rather shocked at the reaction the UN has given to Zwarte Piet.
Zwarte Piet might be a stereotype created long ago by someone who thought Africans were worth less. This isn't what Zwarte Piet stands for today. No kid in the Netherlands associates Zwarte Piet with racism. And frankly, until Zwarte Piet discussions started hitting mainstream audiences, adults didnt either.
I try to stay as neutral as possible, but if no one associates Zwarte Piet with racism, doesnt that mean its not a racist thing?
Zwarte Piet isnt portrayed (maybe on the outside, which could be moderated) as an inferior person. He is Sinterklaas his help, and most kids adore Zwarte Piet more than Sinterklaas himself.
And another question: should we ban elves of Santa Claus as well? They are little people, and could be found offensive.
If anyone has questions on zwarte piet or any other part of the Sinterklaas tradition, just ask
Zwarte Piet might be a stereotype created long ago by someone who thought Africans were worth less. This isn't what Zwarte Piet stands for today. No kid in the Netherlands associates Zwarte Piet with racism. And frankly, until Zwarte Piet discussions started hitting mainstream audiences, adults didnt either.
I try to stay as neutral as possible, but if no one associates Zwarte Piet with racism, doesnt that mean its not a racist thing?
Zwarte Piet isnt portrayed (maybe on the outside, which could be moderated) as an inferior person. He is Sinterklaas his help, and most kids adore Zwarte Piet more than Sinterklaas himself.
And another question: should we ban elves of Santa Claus as well? They are little people, and could be found offensive.
LOL at the ''only one Santa Claus'' part. Screw you, we are the base for santa claus, so ban your christmas edition instead of our sinterklaas, thanks very much
If anyone has questions on zwarte piet or any other part of the Sinterklaas tradition, just ask
It is not even the Original story though. It was made up in the 1850s.
freenudemacusers
Member
happens to me all the time
PjotrStroganov
Member
No, and that can change. Though kids don't actually care. I'm 32 years old and I believed the chimney thing. They came through the chimney to put presents in our shoes.
I'm just shrugging. It's a weird tradition that seems racist to me, but I grew up in a nation where blackface makeup will always be associated with ministrel shows and the associated legacy of the South. Zwarte Piet and the way children feel about him is a very unfamiliar subject to me.
I do think it's silly to deny he's supposed to be a black person though. It's pretty obvious.
Zwarte piet used to put children in sacks as well. He got nicer in the last few decades. Pretty sure they have the same origin.(The German Krampus is a white guy, scary as fuck, and he'll stuff you in a sack and take you away if you've been naughty. I much prefer the Netherlands approach to this Nikolaus helper thing.
Zwarte Piet has racist roots (probably), but growing up with it and being part of a culture that celebrates it, I'm strongly convinced the tradition has divorced itself from that problematic past.
He's more a mythical character than an actual representation of a black person. Sometimes they bring up the soot story to handwave it away, but overall, Zwarte Piet is just that, Zwarte Piet. An entity all on its own. That's how folklore works I guess.
He's more a mythical character than an actual representation of a black person. Sometimes they bring up the soot story to handwave it away, but overall, Zwarte Piet is just that, Zwarte Piet. An entity all on its own. That's how folklore works I guess.
Chuckie
Member
And only introduced on a larger scale in 1934.
It certainly has racist roots, not probably. I used to share your conviction that it had divorced itself from the problematic past (and for most it probably has)
But fact remains there is a group that feels hurt by it and on the other side there is a small group that is holding on to this tradition in an embarrassing way.
I've seen facebook posts saying: If you don't like Zwarte Piet, then fuck off to a country that doesn't celebrate Sinterklaas!
My God...the irony. It would be funny if it wasn't so painful.
Spirit of Jazz
Banned
You are aware that what people find offensive generally differs from person to person? Also that a person can be racist towards their own race?
I find Zwarte Piet threads pretty odd, if you want to maintain that it's because they're covered in soot then get rid of the elements that don't pertain to that. Otherwise just admit you're okay with dressing up as a black caricature associated with racism because it's fun and tradition.
I am not that familiar with the term blackface, but is wearing make-up to look like a dark-skinned person always found offensive in the US? Or is blackface more a thing that people do to make fun of others?
For instance: could you dress up as say President Obama and put dark make-up on?
Arjen
Member
Dutch people in here are saying we should ditch the red lips. Anything contructive to add or are you just trolling like usual?
Zwarte Piet doesn't get experienced as a racial caricature though. When people dress up as Zwarte Piet, they're not thinking of Africans, or Mores, or whatever. The racial aspect is effectively mute. They're dressing up as Zwarte Piet itself.
It can change, is there any movement for change tho? Shrug.
freenudemacusers
Member
I haven't decided yet.
It's really about the kids alone though. Kids can be thought anything they have no knowledge of. A new generation might not be aware of the sins of the past, the older generations might and we shouldn't ignore them.
Arjen
Member
Cool, just checking.
Blackface is a very specific thing that exaggerates racial characteristics but in the past few years some people have used it to mean any attempt to look like a black person. Using it that way is incorrect though.
Last year in Flanders, there were exactly 2 complaints received by the government agency responsible for opposing racism and discrimination, on a population of 6 million.
I thought Zwarte Piet was originally a Moorish servant?
They look pretty black to me.
Edit: Btw, I don't care how Dutch people celebrate their holidays.
I didn't mean the original Sinterklaas story. I meant the Zwarte Piet addition which used obvious racially charged imagery/ideas regardless of how it has since morphed itself away from that in modern times.
Dude Abides
Banned
This kind of cultural background to Zwarte Piet has practically faded away in the public eye. No one thinks of Zwarte Piet as a Moor anymore.
The people who say that zwarte piet isn't meant to be racial are being a little incredulous. Imagine if a country created an asian face caricature. The face has small eyes, is short etc. And that caricature overtime becomes an honored tradition. Would it not still be offensive to asian people? Should asian people not be offended just because the current culture of the country that uses it does not see it as offensive? I am using this as an example but it's this line of thinking that europeans should take into account when they think of zwarte piet.
Goldrusher
Member
The whole town celebrates:
Black kids too:
Hell, black people even participate as Pieten:
Black mayors welcoming Sinterklaas in their town:
Black TV reporters:
Racist? I don't think so.
I mean, look at this hardcore kid:
Black kids too:
Hell, black people even participate as Pieten:
Black mayors welcoming Sinterklaas in their town:
Black TV reporters:
Racist? I don't think so.
I mean, look at this hardcore kid:
As far as I can tell most of the black people in the countries where it's celebrated don't seem to have an issue with it. It's obviously a black caricature that evolved into something harmless, any kind of organized attempt to change it will do more hard than good. My guess is it will naturally evolve further in the soot/chimney direction.
The UN and social justice warriors have more important shit to worry about, not to mention the hypocrisy with regards to Hajji Firuz..
It's so silly to dissect every fucking thing from a 21st century perspective. Are we going to ban most classic operas because they have some racist shit in them as well?
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