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[Jackben]

The whole town celebrates:

This is literally a word for word copy paste job from your post in the last thread last year.

 

[Cyan]

The people who say that zwarte piet isn't meant to be racial are being a little incredulous. Imagine if a country created an asian face caricature. The face has small eyes, is short etc. And that caricature overtime becomes an honored tradition. Would it not still be offensive to asian people? Should asian people not be offended just because the current culture of the country that uses it does not see it as offensive? I am using this as an example but it's this line of thinking that europeans should take into account when they think of zwarte piet.

See e.g.

 

[Alpende]

Just leave our traditions alone. People always have to have something to bitch about.

No kid in our country that I know associates Zwarte Piet with racism. This whole discussion is beyond stupid.

 

[Martian]

The people who say that zwarte piet isn't meant to be racial are being a little incredulous. Imagine if a country created an asian face caricature. The face has small eyes, is short etc. And that caricature overtime becomes an honored tradition. Would it not still be offensive to asian people? Should asian people not be offended just because the current culture of the country that uses it does not see it as offensive? I am using this as an example but it's this line of thinking that europeans should take into account when they think of zwarte piet.

The question with these things still remains whether or not people in the country itself are offended by it. If a small country in the middle of nowhere does something to offend US citizens, they shouldnt be banned from doing it, right? If this was a world-wide occurence, maybe the semantics could be changed a bit (which they have over time, removing the large red lips and other small things), but its kind of odd for people to be offended by something they dont have to deal with at all.

Its possible I am totally clueless on what the general's opinion is on such matters, so I might change my views if people in the Netherlands massively start complaining about the Zwarte Piet tradition being offensive (something I doubt will happen)

 

[Cyan]

Just to remind folks, thread whining is still bannable.

 

[LNBL]

The strange this is that this UN lady is speaking even before the comity has come to a judgement. It is also pretty obvious that she has not even read into the whole story behind this tradition, the whole santa claus remark made it even worse.

 

[Chuckie]

See e.g.

To be honest I am not sure this is a good comparison. While Zwarte Piet was indeed a caricature of a Moor, the people have tried actively to remove this association (saying it is soot, not skincolour, removing the golden earrings, making him smart instead of stupid, removing his accent etc). I am not saying they have succeeded entirely in that (see my previous posts for my stance) but has that been done with the Native American caricature you posted?

 

[7threst]

Just leave our traditions alone. People always have to have something to bitch about.

No kid in our country that I know associates Zwarte Piet with racism. This whole discussion is beyond stupid.

Exactly. It's never assciated with racism at all here. It's aready said in here, but children are told that he is black because he climbs down a chimney. Maybe that's political correctness ironing the racism out of the folklore years ago (because I am almost sure that Zwarte Piet used to be a racist thing), but that is what all kids are taught and believe here in Holland.

 

[neorej]

Can someone explain how the Washington Redskins are still existent in a country that has issues with a supposed racial caricature in a much smaller country across the ocean?

If you're so concerned about hurting people's feelings, take a long hard look in your own backyard first, then we'll start discussing Zwarte Piet and its etymology.

 

[joetachi]

what i dont get if its zoot. why the afro and red lips?

 

[Roland1979]

I am Dutch and i'm ashamed for my "liberal" country every time this gets brought up. It's a ridiculous tradition which can easily be changed because children are happy with presents no matter what, add in music and garlands and free from school and you have yourself a holiday.

Though Zwarte Piet isn't really considered a black person. More like an elf or another mythical person. For most people in the Netherlands there is no history with blackface so a connection isn't really made. Kids all want to dress up like Piet because he's such an awesome person.

They used to represent Satan, devils. Good behavior got rewarded, bad behavior punished. The story even includes a book, kind of like the Book of Life, which kept track of everything you did. Social control at it's best. The reason he came from Spain is because of our ties with Spain due to the Eighty Years' War (or Dutch War of Independence) and our common enemy. And we might not have Blackface but we where once the world's biggest slave traders.

And to all the Dutch defending it here: it doesn't matter what the children think of it. It's incredibly hurtful to people of African descent. Keep justifying it to yourself.

If you're so concerned about hurting people's feelings, take a long hard look in your own backyard first, then we'll start discussing Zwarte Piet and its etymology.

How about we address both? How does one wrong make another right?

 

[Jackben]

Can someone explain how the Washington Redskins are still existent in a country that has issues with a supposed racial caricature in a much smaller country across the ocean?

If you're so concerned about hurting people's feelings, take a long hard look in your own backyard first, then we'll start discussing Zwarte Piet and its etymology.

We already do. There is a ton of controversy within our country and Washington state as another example of this very issue. It takes 2 seconds to google Washington Redskins controversy to see that it is a big deal. We take things like that and the Cleveland Indians into discussion because many people do not like it.

Trying to push away discussion by pointing to something else that is also racist and bad is a strawman.

 

[Grym]

To be honest I am not sure this is a good comparison. While Zwarte Piet was indeed a caricature of a Moor, the people have tried actively to remove this association (saying it is soot, not skincolour, removing the golden earrings, making him smart instead of stupid, removing his accent etc). I am not saying they have succeeded entirely in that (see my previous posts for my stance) but has that been done with the Native American caricature you posted?

So a racist history is okay as long and you try to hide its origin over the years?

I mean, I'm not offended by Zwarte Piet. I'm not offended by the Braves logo either. Though both are seemingly harmless today, I can at least admit both have a racist and potentially harmful history. Modern day revisions aren't going to change that. That said, I don't think either cause enough harm currently to require being completely thrown away as traditions or anything....though I wouldn't be against it if they were.

 

[7threst]

So a racist history is okay as long and you try to hide its origin over the years?
.

Is it really hiding when you change it? I would say it's more acknowledging that it's wrong and then fixing it by changing it.

 

[Chuckie]

So a racist history is okay as long and you try to hide its origin over the years?

Except I didn't say it was okay, I merely stated why I thought the comparison wasn't a good one.

Apparently lots of people in the Netherland do not associate Zwarte Piet with a Moor slave, I simply wondered how much people in the States do not associate that Cleveland Indians logo with a Native American.

 

[Cyan]

To be honest I am not sure this is a good comparison. While Zwarte Piet was indeed a caricature of a Moor, the people have tried actively to remove this association (saying it is soot, not skincolour, removing the golden earrings, making him smart instead of stupid, removing his accent etc). I am not saying they have succeeded entirely in that (see my previous posts for my stance) but has that been done with the Native American caricature you posted?

It's a complement to IGSaint's post. It's often a useful skill to take an outside view and consider how you might view someone else making similar claims to yours, and that's essentially what he's suggesting Zwarte Piet supporters should try.

The point of the comparison is that all of the same arguments are used: it's tradition, it's not really racist, this is just political correctness gone out of control, this is just projecting, racial caricatures really aren't a big deal, actual Native Americans don't care so why should you, you can't complain about this until you've personally fixed every other wrong in the world, etc etc.

If those arguments don't seem compelling to you when used to argue for Chief Wahoo, but they do for Zwarte Piet, then it's probably worth stopping to think about why that might be.

As for your additional note about trying to remove the racial aspects of the character--I agree! This is a positive development, and if in future other aspects that make this more of a racial caricature are toned down or removed, I think that would be excellent.

For Chief Wahoo, that's probably not possible. That one just needs to be gotten rid of.

 

[Grym]

Is it really hiding when you change it? I would say it's more acknowledging that it's wrong and then fixing it by changing it.

I guess the only reason I said "hiding" is because most in here defending the tradition don't seem willing to even say its history is racist. I get that it isn't thought of that way today and the kiddos don't see it that way either. But if anyone can't see its origin is racist, they are hiding something from themselves.

 

[Cyan]

Can someone explain how the Washington Redskins are still existent in a country that has issues with a supposed racial caricature in a much smaller country across the ocean?

Well, why do you think that might be the case?

 

[Chuckie]

I guess the only reason I said "hiding" is because most in here defending the tradition don't seem willing to even say its history is racist. I get that it isn't thought of that way today and the kiddos don't see it that way either. But if anyone can't see its origin is racist, they are hiding something from themselves.

But then it is odd that you quote me, while my first post in this topic actually was this:

Zwarte Piets background is indeed racial, no use in denying that. Him being black from the soot is something more recent (recent as in last 30 years or so) for me kids associating it with soot is a positive development.
The fact people these day and age don't consider Zwarte Piet a black slave does not mean the origins arent racist though.

 

[Ringo]

Wasn't Sinterklaas actually Odin?

"They both ride a white horse in the skies,wear a white beard, a cloak and a spear/cosier. They both have black helpers. They try to support goodness and dispel evil through knowledge."

Zwarte Piet is as far as I concern folklore. The same as those Spanish people dressing as the KKK during Easter. People who don't understand this should stay away from the whole concept.

(http://www.valenciavalencia.com/culture-guide/semana-santa/ku-klux-klan-semana-santa-spain.htm)
.
And for those interested, in Belgium we also celebrate Sinterklaas and no one complains...

 

[Goldrusher]

what i dont get if its zoot. why the afro and red lips?

All those bullshit excuses are just that, bullshit.

Kids simply see them as "black". Just like The Simpsons are yellow, and The Smurfs are blue. They don't ask questions.

Some parents tell their kids they "simply are black", others say "they're from Africa", others say "they're black from going in chimneys".

There's no one true story that every kid is told.

 

[Y-Z]

Just a fun fact to trough around because i think some people think only white people dress as Zwarte Piet. Around 30% of the Zwarte Piet crew in Amsterdam (one of the biggest celebrations) is black. Also as has been posted it also gets celebrated in Aruba, Curacau, Sint Maarten and Suriname.

 

[Overdoziz]

I'm all for rainbow colored Zwarte Pieten.

 

[Grym]

But then it is odd that you quote me, while my first post in this topic actually was this:

I was quoting the sentiment...the rationalization that of "this is better than that because its history has been modified over time'. I see both examples as fairly equal...not very harmful in modern times but both containing a racist hurtful history due to their origins.

I wasn't quoting your previous thought or posst...it wasn't an attack on you personally.

 

[Metrotab]

This is a positive development, and if in future other aspects that make this more of a racial caricature are toned down or removed, I think that would be excellent.

But at this point, those elements have become part of the character itself. People who dress up as Zwarte Piet will get a wig and color their lips red. Not because they want to caricature a race of people, but because those are simply elements belonging to Zwarte Piet. Are these people really being racist? And is this really problematic?

 

[Chuckie]

I was quoting the sentiment...the rationalization that of "this is better than that because its history has been modified over time'. I see both examples as fairly equal...not very harmful in modern times but both containing a racist hurtful history due to their origins.

They share a similar history but a different present. But I'll guess we have to agree to disagree.

I wasn't quoting your previous thought or posst...it wasn't an attack on you personally.

No offense taken mate.

 

[HelloMeow]

Zwarte Piet is a caricature of a character that also happens to be black.

Making an issue out of his skin color, especially when it has lost its meaning (whatever that might have been) is what is racist.

If you want Zwarte Piet to come in different colors, or if you want to get rid of him because he is black, or if you are offended by it, then you're a fucking racist.

 

[Roland1979]

But at this point, those elements have become part of the character itself. People who dress up as Zwarte Piet will get a wig and color their lips red. Not because they want to caricature a race of people, but because those are simply elements belonging to Zwarte Piet. Are these people really being racist? And is this really problematic?

It is defiantly problematic, but even more disturbing is people don't recognizing it only because they can't or won't imagine what it is for someone who had slaves as ancestors. They keep saying that no one complains which is complete bull, they are just not being heard. Every time a camera crew is interviewing random people then not only those of African descent, but most darker skinned people think it's racist and offensive. If you don't see a lot of dark skinned people taking orders from a single white skinned person who's holding a staff/scepter then there is something wrong with you and you live in your own world.

 

[Dude Abides]

Zwarte Piet is a caricature of a character that also happens to be black.

Making an issue out of his skin color, especially when it has lost its meaning (whatever that might have been) is what is racist.

If you want Zwarte Piet to come in different colors, or if you want to get rid of him because he is black, or if you are offended by it, then you're a fucking racist.

I thought it was soot.

 

[Zabka]

Zwarte Piet is a caricature of a character that also happens to be black.

Making an issue out of his skin color, especially when it has lost its meaning (whatever that might have been) is what is racist.

If you want Zwarte Piet to come in different colors, or if you want to get rid of him because he is black, or if you are offended by it, then you're a fucking racist.

Racist against who? White people who dress up as black people?

 

[Toxi]

I am not that familiar with the term blackface, but is wearing make-up to look like a dark-skinned person always found offensive in the US? Or is blackface more a thing that people do to make fun of others?

For instance: could you dress up as say President Obama and put dark make-up on?

Nope. If someone dressed up as Obama and put dark makeup on, it would be considered extremely racist and in poor taste. Even if the makeup wasn't heavily stereotyped (Aka no big red lips), we'd probably have a media freakout.

We had a long period where comedic stage performances wearing stereotypical black makeup were a popular form of entertainment. During that same time, we had slavery after most other countries had dropped it, got rid of slavery only after the most costly war in our country's history, and proceeded with a hundred more years of oppression and discrimination. During all this time, the image of a black clown was a way to belittle and ridicule black people.

The United States has a strange identity where it is terrified of racism because racism was (And is) such a huge and widely publicized problem here.

Blackface is a very specific thing that exaggerates racial characteristics but in the past few years some people have used it to mean any attempt to look like a black person. Using it that way is incorrect though.

There are two forms of blackface. The first is the ministrel show approach of making someone into a caricature, which can be done with both white and black actors. The second is the hollywood approach of making a white actor look black because the studio is unwilling to hire black actors.

Zwarte Piet definitely falls into the caricature category, but he also isn't based on the same basis as the American perception of blackface.

 

[Jackben]

I thought it was soot.

.

 

[Zabka]

There are two forms of blackface. The first is the ministrel show approach of making someone into a caricature, which can be done with both white and black actors. The second is the hollywood approach of making a white actor look black because the studio is unwilling to hire black actors.

Zwarte Piet definitely falls into the caricature category, but he also isn't based on the same basis as the American perception of blackface.

I'm gonna need an example of your second definition.

 

[akira28]

Wasn't Sinterklaas actually Odin?

"They both ride a white horse in the skies,wear a white beard, a cloak and a spear/cosier. They both have black helpers. They try to support goodness and dispel evil through knowledge."

Svartálfar -

In Norse mythology, svartálfar (Old Norse "swart elves" or "black elves", singular svartálfr) are beings who dwell in Svartálfaheimr ("world of black-elves").

 

[ComputerMKII]

Are black people actually offended by it?

 

[Goldrusher]

Are black people actually offended by it?

You tell me:

 

[Roland1979]

Are black people actually offended by it?

Absolutely.

 

[Metrotab]

It is defiantly problematic, but even more disturbing is people don't recognizing it only because they can't or won't imagine what it is for someone who had slaves as ancestors. They keep saying that no one complains which is complete bull, they are just not being heard. Every time a camera crew is interviewing random people then not only those of African descent, but most darker skinned people think it's racist and offensive. If you don't see a lot of dark skinned people taking orders from a single white skinned person who's holding a staff/scepter then there is something wrong with you and you live in your own world.

Like I said before, last year only 2 official complaints were filed in Flanders. Two! That number was only a bit higher for the Netherlands.

And every institution celebrates Sinterklaas with Zwarte Pieten. The schools, colleges, mayors and cities, shopping centres. Zwarte Piet everywhere! Yet any political momentum to remove or change it is completely lacking. Even left-wing politicians don't care.

I'm just not seeing the evidence of Zwarte Piet being a problem.

 

[Roland1979]

You tell me:

What a BS. This doesn't proof anything and when they did a polling a large majority was offended by it. There where black people in neo-nazi groups as well as in the KKK. Does that proof they are not racist groups that spread hate?

 

[Roland1979]

I'm just not seeing the evidence of Zwarte Piet being a problem.

Keep justifying it to yourself. And that you don't see i believe.
Edit: are you oke with changing it to white people wearing ridiculous outfits working for a single dark skinned man who hold a staff/scepter? Then we might have a acceptable change.

 

[Herbspiceguy]

Are black people actually offended by it?

I know there are black Dutch people offended by it, but I think it's a small group. It's the same group who carry a lot of resentment for what the "whites" did during the high times of the West Indian Company.
The younger generations seem fine with celebrating Sinterklaas. They will even dress up as zwarte Piet themselves.

 

[akira28]

Are black people actually offended by it?

Well I know this question was going to be asked, because it's part of GAF's own version of the Christmas story pageant. But it's been asked before, in the other Pete threads, so I can't believe you've never pondered this before. And the response as well. So it's like...never mind, I'll just watch the show.

vv: lol

Racial discrimination is racism too, and that is exactly what the Zwarte Pieten haters are doing.

Black Friday talks and Black Peter defence force. That's how I know it's the holiday season.

 

[HelloMeow]

I thought it was soot.

Very well, a character that might have happened to be black. What does it matter?

Racist against who? White people who dress up as black people?

You don't have to be racist against someone to be racist. Racial discrimination is racism too, and that is exactly what the Zwarte Pieten haters are doing.

 

[methane47]

I know there are black Dutch people offended by it, but I think it's a small group. It's the same group who carry a lot of resentment for what the "whites" did during the high times of the West Indian Company.
The younger generations seem fine with celebrating Sinterklaas. They will even dress up as zwarte Piet themselves.

For what its worth... Black people are a significant Minority in the Netherlands.
Much smaller percentage than in the US.

For example The MAjority of Blacks are from the Antilles and Suriname.
And the percentage of People from those regions is estimated at 0.8% and 2.0%

And You can probably split the 2% from Suriname in half to divide between the Hindustans imigrants and the Blacks.

Anyways one could estimate the population of Blacks to be ~3% of the total.
And a majority of those would live in the big cities Amsterdam, Rotterdam and Den Haag.

So when you say a "small" group of people.. you are absolutely right.

It's so early, we might even have 2 this year. Oh joy.

Hmm looks like my post was deleted :/

 

[Metrotab]

Keep justifying it to yourself. And that you don't see i believe.
Edit: are you oke with changing it to white people wearing ridiculous outfits working for a single dark skinned man who hold a staff/scepter? Then we might have a acceptable change.

But that's not the cultural imagery of Sinterklaas and Zwarte Piet. I mean, go ahead and do so, but that doesn't align with the folklore.

Also, I just went on the website of the CGKR, the Belgian government agency focused on discrimination and racism. I searched for both Zwarte Piet, and Sinterklaas, and the only hit was about a chain mail about an Australian PM. Nothing else.

 

[Roland1979]

It's not really tradition as some claim: for more then 500 years there where no "Zwarte Pieten", in 1850 Schenkman invented them. And they where meant to be dumb, backwards, slow slaves.
Of course we should not rob children of the party all together, a common excuse. We should change it until it is acceptable. And children adapt very quickly and they do not care whether there helpers are blue or black or white so why give them a color at all? Because when they get older they will start to see a color.

 

[Roland1979]

that doesn't align with the folklore.

There never was a single unchanged folklore! So it's oke that it has changed in the past but in the moment you are alive it's not oke? And all the excuses are just for the adults. Children don't really care, as long as they have present, festivities and something to fantasies about.

 

[Timedog]

Where's that awesome anti-Zwarte Piet shirt that was around like a year ago? It looked dope as fuck I wanna get one.

 

[Arjen]

There never was a single unchanged folklore! So it's oke that it has changed in the past but in the moment you are alive it's not oke? And all the excuses are just for the adult. Children don't really care, as long as they have present, festivities and something to fantasies about.

More than one said that wouldn't mind a few changes. But I feel a lot of people dont really come into these threads to discuss those things, they'd rather point and call us racist, make a few condescending remarks and bail. Happens every year.

 

[Big Baybee]

I still don't get it. If people claim that the racial undertones have been removed, and that it is no longer black slaves, but a person covered in soot, why we still got red lips and nappy wigs?