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[Toxi]

It is. He was borne out of racism, no doubt about it. And no need to deny it. The beating thing is still in some songs. But the character evolved. No need to damn the holiday for it's historical context. Times change,and in a historic context that kind of racism was usual. Nowadays, that backstory is completely gonr

Not a child sees pete as a negro now. There are no racist motives behind the character anymore (I'm 27 and never saw him as a black man. I always believed he was black from soot). That's why manu dutch and belgians can't see the problem. They never looked at pete as negro.

It's not a racist holiday, and definitaly not the holiday from hell some of uoy condamn it to, but the imagery has to change and modernize.

Wait, "negro"? Is that word like cunt where it's inoffensive and acceptable outside the states?

Just took me aback while reading the thread.

 

[mr2xxx]

Is it that hard to go to something that resembles this?

 

[Lowmelody]

Is it that hard to go to something that resembles this?

Precisely this. This tradition doesn't have to go anywhere, just modified in the slightest and most superficial of ways. It's only a win for everyone in that then no one is unintentionally alienating great swaths of people there by making it a more inclusive and thus joyous for all and in trivial mundane sense makes the costume much easier to pull off than black-face.

To me the largest win would be the demonstration and example set of responding to the feelings of those most ignored for millennia to alter old traditions that their ancestors were deprived of so we can move forward as people. Not forgetting isn't enough, we can't shy away from the nitty gritty aspect of "change", of which a character such as Zwarte Piet is a minor aspect of in the grand scheme but the over due and overt nature of it serves as I think a great wide social teachable moment that will help unseat other stubborn signs of ignorance through out every place.

 

[GQman2121]

I have a lot of sympathy for the view that it needs to change in some way. But these posts saying there should be no debate, and the smug bullshit from people outside the countries in question don't convince anyone. Human psychology means that every time you have a smug reply telling Dutch people what hey should do, less of them are likely to do it.

Nobody enjoys being dictated to by outsiders.

I agree. Let's celebrate....

 

[Osahi]

Wait, "negro"? Is that word like cunt where it's inoffensive and acceptable outside the states?

Just took me aback while reading the thread.

No, it's not. I used the word because pete us often referred to as a "negro character", just because of the negative connotation. I meant no offence by it, but i understand it can come of as rude.

Should've said no kids see him as a black or african man.

 

[Toxi]

No, it's not. I used the word because pete us often referred to as a "negro character", just because of the negative connotation. I meant no offence by it, but i understand it can come of as rude.

Should've said no kids see him as a black or african man.

Thank you, I was just a bit confused.

 

[kamorra]

I've already changed my tune about this tradition in the other thread after seeing black people protesting against Zwarte Piet for the first time. So yes, it has to change and I was quite wrong. I apologized in the other thread and I do it again here.

I am just going to quote myself from the blackface thread two days ago, since the same arguments are being made here...

Preface : Not comparing the two, just an personal story. The posts that talk about how they didn't know it was racist until this thread and whatnot reminded me of it.

Anyway...

I grew up in the middle-east. One thing that I would hear a lot was people shitting on the Jewish people. Literally blaming every problem on them, calling them the 'cursed-people' and using Jew as an extremely offensive slang.

I did this too.

We were kids playing outside, and asked one of our friends to get coca-cola for us since it was hot. He told us to fuck off and we can get it ourselves, and he isn't buying. I remember calling him "you fucking Jew"

I grew up, and I educated myself about these matters, and felt like shit about all I did. I told my friend to not say that when I heard them use it in a derogatory way, and they would call me "Jew-lover" sometimes.

What I am trying to say is, there are posts in this thread, that went through what I went through. Grew up in a culture that celebrates Zwarte Piet without questioning it, at least the majority don't.

These folk grew up in this culture, and even after being educated by others, and having people who were persecuted share their struggles and stories; they just go "it's my culture...what's racist in america isn't racist here.

They keep using the same excuse over...and over.

Nobody is here to take over your culture or destroy it. To be so stubborn and not change your stance that offends countless people is just baffling. Especially from people who claim they are open-minded.

It's as if I waltz in here, and when someone make a tipping thread I just post how "you are all fucking jews". Then people try to educate me, and I just post "This is my culture, this is where I grew up. We use it as a joke, its not a bad term like in America"

I will also add;

I used to live in Iran. And during new years you had people dress up as Haji Firuz. I used to laugh at it..and actually think it was funny. Did not see anything wrong with it. He was always a joke character and would sing and act really quirky.

Now that I look back at it, I cringe at myself. It was, and stil is so fucking wrong. Here is the rhyme that he sings to cheer others up i.e his master.

This is a great example about how not to approach this subject. It took you until you grew up to stop being an anti semite. This only shows that people won't change overnight even if it's the right thing to do. Being smug and telling them that there shouldn't even be a debate won't help. I certainly didn't change my mind because of post like this. I've changed it because of the rational debate that's going on in the Netherlands I was oblivious before.