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[PJV3]

The charge of racism feels like using a sledgehammer to crack a nut, but it's definitely outdated.

 

[LNBL]

The thing that I found strange is that the leader of the so called independant working group of the UN has already spoken out on her views to this issue, that being done without any research into the matter at all. Her remarks concerning having 2 santa clauses is ridiculous.

However, something tells me that this issue is going to be handed over to the general assembly of the UN. The question that remains after that is whether the Dutch government is going to take action after the UN comes with an advice or even a resolution.

 

[Scipius]

However, something tells me that this issue is going to be handed over to the general assembly of the UN. The question that remains after that is whether the Dutch government is going to take action after the UN comes with an advice or even a resolution.

The Dutch have been ignoring pressure from both the UN and the US over our drugs policies for decades and rightly so.

 

[LNBL]

The Dutch have been ignoring pressure from both the UN and the US over our drugs policies for decades and rightly so.

True that.

However, imagine the shitstorm next year if the Dutch government refuses to follow that advice.

 

[Arjen]

The thing that I found strange is that the leader of the so called independant working group of the UN has already spoken out on her views to this issue, that being done without any research into the matter at all. Her remarks concerning having 2 santa clauses is ridiculous.

However, something tells me that this issue is going to be handed over to the general assembly of the UN. The question that remains after that is whether the Dutch government is going to take action after the UN comes with an advice or even a resolution.

I doubt the government will do anything about it.

 

[itsgreen]

True that.

However, imagine the shitstorm next year if the Dutch government refuses to follow that advice.

I doubt there will be a shitstorm.

The prime minister and the labour leader already said out loud: "Zwarte Piet is Zwart."

They won't do a single thing.

The FB thing says about enough about how the ratio lies with people against Zwarte Piet and those who want to retain our tradition. about about 200:1 are pro Zwarte Piet. And of course it is only Facebook, but it should be pretty clear that it is a small vocal minority against Zwarte Piet.

 

[Pand]

The thing that I found strange is that the leader of the so called independant working group of the UN has already spoken out on her views to this issue, that being done without any research into the matter at all. Her remarks concerning having 2 santa clauses is ridiculous.

However, something tells me that this issue is going to be handed over to the general assembly of the UN. The question that remains after that is whether the Dutch government is going to take action after the UN comes with an advice or even a resolution.

As long as it's just an advice (and I don't see it going any further than that) I don't see that happening, especially with the approval ratings for the current government being as low as they are. It would play right into Wilders' hands.

 

[Kiraly]

The prime minister has said it is not in his power to force a change.

Change will have to come from the community. (Hint: it wont.)

 

[Yaboosh]

The analog with Chief Wahoo, the Redskins and even the Confederate battle flag seem close to this. People claiming tradition, people retconning reality to try to keep the tradition, people calling others too pc or racist.

 

[Kinyou]

The prime minister has said it is not in his power to force a change.

Change will have to come from the community. (Hint: it wont.)

How would you even enforce it? Arrest the peaceful Piets in public? That could come off as quite totalitarian

 

[dragonelite]

The prime minister has said it is not in his power to force a change.

Change will have to come from the community. (Hint: it wont.)

Pretty much and any party that will try to force it might as well stop running in elections.

 

[Pand]

The analog with Chief Wahoo, the Redskins and even the Confederate battle flag seem close to this. People claiming tradition, people retconning reality to try to keep the tradition, people calling others too pc or racist.

His skin is red because he's been running and the feather's there to keep him in balance, right?

 

[LNBL]

As long as it's just an advice (and I don't see it going any further than that) I don't see that happening, especially with the approval ratings for the current government being as low as they are. It would play right into Wilders' hands.

I don't think the UN can even do much more than propose a resolution or give advice, they don't have much more power than that.

 

[Pand]

I don't think the UN can even do much more than propose a resolution or give advice, they don't have much more power than that.

Yeah, you're right, those resolutions aren't binding.

 

[Dude Abides]

How would you even enforce it? Arrest the peaceful Piets in public? That could come off as quite totalitarian

They didn't have many qualms about arresting people protesting it.

 

[Goku]

Since my question is ignored, I ask again:

For manu native American tribes, Thanksgiving is not a day in which one has to be thankful. They see Thankgiving as the start of a tragic proces in which they started to loose their land, and their population. Every year Wampanoags and other tribes come together on Thanksgiving day in Plymouth to commemorate their "national mourn day".

So.. why is Thanksgiving still around?

Edit: Wait a fucking minute, there is an actual football club in the US called the Washington Redskins??? Why the hell are we discussing Zwarte Piet here :S

 

[Dude Abides]

Since my question is ignored, I ask again:

For manu native American tribes, Thanksgiving is not a day in which one has to be thankful. They see Thankgiving as the start of a tragic proces in which they started to loose their land, and their population. Every year Wampanoags and other tribes come together on Thanksgiving day in Plymouth to commemorate their "national mourn day".

So.. why is Thanksgiving still around?

Edit: Wait a fucking minute, there is an actual football club in the US called the Washington Redskins??? Why the hell are we discussing Zwarte Piet here :S

We're talking about Zwarte Piet because it's in the OP. That's generally how things work. When you're no longer a junior you can make threads about Thanksgiving racism and the Washington professional football team, though there already are threads about the latter.

 

[Archaix]

Since my question is ignored, I ask again:

For manu native American tribes, Thanksgiving is not a day in which one has to be thankful. They see Thankgiving as the start of a tragic proces in which they started to loose their land, and their population. Every year Wampanoags and other tribes come together on Thanksgiving day in Plymouth to commemorate their "national mourn day".

So.. why is Thanksgiving still around?

Edit: Wait a fucking minute, there is an actual football club in the US called the Washington Redskins??? Why the hell are we discussing Zwarte Piet here :S

Yep. The team in the nation's capital uses a racist name depicting a race that nation committed genocide against. It's really quite amazing.

 

[Salmonax]

Edit: Wait a fucking minute, there is an actual football club in the US called the Washington Redskins??? Why the hell are we discussing Zwarte Piet here :S

The hypocrisy angle assumes that the people criticizing Zwarte Piet are also in favor of the Redskins retaining the name, which very few people outside the Washington region are. Even many of them are beginning to see the light.

 

[Goku]

We're talking about Zwarte Piet because it's in the OP. That's generally how things work. When you're no longer a junior you can make threads about Thanksgiving racism and the Washington professional football team, though there already are threads about the latter.

You didn't get my point. The discussion is about changing Zwarte Piet and even dismissing Sinterklaas as a national tradition. The argument is that the few that are offended should be listened to because Zwarte Piet is depicting blackface. The reason I ask about Thanksgiving is because it also insults a part of the population.

The key, major difference is that Zwarte Piet is called blackface by non Dutch people, while there is no history of blackface is Holland. Thanksgiving on the other hand is celebrated in a country who has a history of genocide, and a part the people who the genocide was committed against are against the tradition.

 

[itsgreen]

You didn't get my point. The discussion is about changing Zwarte Piet and even dismissing Sinterklaas as a national tradition. The argument is that the few that are offended should be listened to because Zwarte Piet is depicting blackface. The reason I ask about Thanksgiving is because it also insults a part of the population.

The key, major difference is that Zwarte Piet is called blackface by non Dutch people, while there is no history of blackface is Holland. Thanksgiving on the other hand is celebrated in a country who has a history of genocide, and a part the people who the genocide was committed against are against the tradition.

(We shouldn't really play the genocide card, we weren't that clean in Indonesia)

 

[dark_prinny]

Slave to love.

 

[Kabouter]

(We shouldn't really play the genocide card, we weren't that clean in Indonesia)

Or America.

Infants were torn from their mother's breasts [Melyn wrote], and hacked to pieces in the presence of the parents, and pieces thrown into the fire and in the water, and other sucklings being bound to small boards, were cut, stuck, and pierced, and miserably massacred in a manner to move a heart of stone. Some were thrown into the river, and when the fathers and mothers endeavoured to save them, the soldiers would not let them come on land but made both parents and children drown... Some came to our people in the country with their hands, some with their legs cut off, and some holding their entrails in their arms, and others had such horrible cuts and gashes that worse than they were could never happen... Did the Duke of Alva in the Netherlands ever do anything more cruel?

Events described are part of Kieft's War

 

[neorej]

Since my question is ignored, I ask again:

For manu native American tribes, Thanksgiving is not a day in which one has to be thankful. They see Thankgiving as the start of a tragic proces in which they started to loose their land, and their population. Every year Wampanoags and other tribes come together on Thanksgiving day in Plymouth to commemorate their "national mourn day".

So.. why is Thanksgiving still around?

Edit: Wait a fucking minute, there is an actual football club in the US called the Washington Redskins??? Why the hell are we discussing Zwarte Piet here :S

It gets better since the woman investigating Zwarte Piet comes from a country where most of the population has a history of refusing equal rights to gay people.

 

[Dude Abides]

You didn't get my point. The discussion is about changing Zwarte Piet and even dismissing Sinterklaas as a national tradition. The argument is that the few that are offended should be listened to because Zwarte Piet is depicting blackface. The reason I ask about Thanksgiving is because it also insults a part of the population.

The key, major difference is that Zwarte Piet is called blackface by non Dutch people, while there is no history of blackface is Holland. Thanksgiving on the other hand is celebrated in a country who has a history of genocide, and a part the people who the genocide was committed against are against the tradition.

You don't have a point. "Hey look at that completely unrelated thing over there!" isn't a point, it's a deflection. It's not even an analogy since we don't celebrate Thanksgiving with some guy in red facepaint doing a fake war dance with a tomahawk and going woop woop woop.

 

[HarryHengst]

However, something tells me that this issue is going to be handed over to the general assembly of the UN. The question that remains after that is whether the Dutch government is going to take action after the UN comes with an advice or even a resolution.

Nothing will come of this. Especially not if the UN starts mandating things.

However, i would not be surprised if in 10 years time changes have been made. It is a debate that seems to return every year, and every year it seems to become just a bit bigger (although i have to admit that the whole UN thing might have blown it out of proportions). But expecting a population to change its traditions because some foreign 'researchers' (i really cant consider that Jamaican woman one anymore after her 'but why two santa clauses??' remark) said so isn't going to work.

The FB thing says about enough about how the ratio lies with people against Zwarte Piet and those who want to retain our tradition. about about 200:1 are pro Zwarte Piet. And of course it is only Facebook, but it should be pretty clear that it is a small vocal minority against Zwarte Piet.

pro Zwarte Piet: 1,511,294 likes
contra Zwarte Piet: 8,055

Yeah.

 

[LNBL]

Nothing will come of this. Especially not if the UN starts mandating things.

However, i would not be surprised if in 10 years time changes have been made. It is a debate that seems to return every year, and every year it seems to become just a bit bigger (although i have to admit that the whole UN thing might have blown it out of proportions). But expecting a population to change its traditions because some foreign 'researchers' (i really cant consider that Jamaican woman one anymore after her 'but why two santa clauses??' remark) said so isn't going to work.




pro Zwarte Piet: 1,511,294 likes
contra Zwarte Piet: 8,055

Yeah.

This is the work group that the UN has appointed to this matter:

Am I right when I say that this group has already made up his/her mind when it comes to this matter even before any research has been done? Sorry if this comes across as racist, not my intention.

 

[daxy]

You don't have a point. "Hey look at that completely unrelated thing over there!" isn't a point, it's a deflection. It's not even an analogy since we don't celebrate Thanksgiving with some guy in red facepaint doing a fake war dance with a tomahawk and going woop woop woop.

His point is clear. Looking from the outside in, you think it in some way perpetuates racism while a member of the community that tradition belongs to doesn't even think about possibly hurtful connotations and doesn't consider them in the spirit of the wider tradition. You just made his entire point.

 

[Htown]

This is the work group that the UN has appointed to this matter:

Am I right when I say that this group has already made up his/her mind when it comes to this matter even before any research has been done? Sorry if this comes across as racist, not my intention.

it depends, why do you think this group has already made up its mind?

 

[KanyeEast]

This is the work group that the UN has appointed to this matter:

Am I right when I say that this group has already made up his/her mind when it comes to this matter even before any research has been done? Sorry if this comes across as racist, not my intention.

You come of racist You are right that they may have already made their decision because the majority is black. Don't you think thats the proof that zwarte piet is fucking racist if even people outside Netherlands think that it is. Only my racist dutchies don't see this.

 

[Rocket Scientist]

People all over Holland are about to get a zwarte piet tattoo. ''First'' one is a woman of Indonesian decent. It's great when your country teaches so little about its history that you get a woman of Indonesian decent to get a tattoo of zwarte piet.

 

[itsgreen]

People all over Holland are about to get a zwarte piet tattoo. ''First'' one is a woman of Indonesian decent. It's great when your country teaches so little about its history that you get a woman of Indonesian decent to get a tattoo of zwarte piet.

One nutcase getting a tattoo != people all over Holland, that said, it shows how Sinterklaas brings people of all backgrounds together.

This is the work group that the UN has appointed to this matter:

Am I right when I say that this group has already made up his/her mind when it comes to this matter even before any research has been done? Sorry if this comes across as racist, not my intention.

Skin color shouldn't have anything to do with it, she disqualified her entire report by saying she thinks it's racist before even visiting the Netherlands. Before even talking to people. She had made up her mind. No matter what she will say now this report is damaged. There is absolutely no reason to even read it.

But the most brilliant thing I heard is that she said she might change her opinion on Zwarte Piet if we pay retributions.

 

[neorej]

Here's an interesting development: Marc Jacobs, president of UNESCO, claims that Verene Shepherd has no official function within the UN. She's merely a consultant, abusing her position and connections to push this propaganda from a minority of people.

 

[way more]

The charge of racism feels like using a sledgehammer to crack a nut, but it's definitely outdated.

That is a odd defense I hear often. People say something is a little racist and the retort is "how could you brand me with such a word? It will cause downfall upon me and ruin my seed."

Things can be a little racist. When Obama highlighted that female Governor's looks over her qualifications it was a little sexist. Yet instead of defending why they didn't think it was a little sexist people acted as if we were comparing Obama to a Nazi, or KKK member.

We will never progress on issues like the one presented in the thread if when people question it's origin or intent the defenders reverse-Godwin whenever the charge of something inappropriate is brought up. There exists a ground between Totally Inclusive and Non-Offensive to all --------- Holocaust. Let's try to examine things like they exist in that middle ground.

Edit: I realize you weren't making that charge.

 

[Rocket Scientist]

One nutcase getting a tattoo != people all over Holland, that said, it shows how Sinterklaas brings people of all backgrounds together.

You know it's going to happen. And yes, it brings ignorant people of all backgrounds together.

 

[Dead Man]

One nutcase getting a tattoo != people all over Holland, that said, it shows how Sinterklaas brings people of all backgrounds together.



Skin color shouldn't have anything to do with it, she disqualified her entire report by saying she thinks it's racist before even visiting the Netherlands. Before even talking to people. She had made up her mind. No matter what she will say now this report is damaged. There is absolutely no reason to even read it.

But the most brilliant thing I heard is that she said she might change her opinion on Zwarte Piet if we pay retributions.

Jesus, LOL

 

[Rocket Scientist]

But the most brilliant thing I heard is that she said she might change her opinion on Zwarte Piet if we pay retributions.

[citation needed]

Only thing I read was that she might change her mind once the ''research'' is done.

If we find out our information is wrong, we will change our position. But the information we have at the moment from the people of the Netherlands is that it is racist, a throwback to slavery and it should not happen.

http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2013/10/zwarte_piet_is_a_throwback_to.php#sthash.SxpPLjwZ.dpuf

 

[Arjen]

But the most brilliant thing I heard is that she said she might change her opinion on Zwarte Piet if we pay retributions.

You got a link to that quote? Hilarious if true.

 

[itsgreen]

You got a link to that quote? Hilarious if true.

In the NRC according to Nieuwsuur: http://nieuwsuur.nl/uitzending/2013-10-23/ (33:40) , Link probably won't work for people who don't connect through a Dutch IP.

 

[Coen]

Here's an interesting development: Marc Jacobs, president of UNESCO, claims that Verene Shepherd has no official function within the UN. She's merely a consultant, abusing her position and connections to push this propaganda from a minority of people.

He's not the president, just the Belgian representative.

 

[Deleted member 1235]

Racist Aussies take heat off harmless dutch tradition via poorly thought out party

http://www.news.com.au/national/aus...ackface-costumes/story-fncynjr2-1226744540370

 

[Arjen]

Racist Aussies take heat off harmless dutch tradition via poorly thought out party

http://www.news.com.au/national/aus...ackface-costumes/story-fncynjr2-1226744540370

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=701539

 

[Caayn]

He's not the president, just the Belgian representative.

So he speaks on behalve of UNESCO.

 

[methane47]

The FB thing says about enough about how the ratio lies with people against Zwarte Piet and those who want to retain our tradition. about about 200:1 are pro Zwarte Piet. And of course it is only Facebook, but it should be pretty clear that it is a small vocal minority against Zwarte Piet.

Many of my friends who are living in Holland who feel offended by Zwarte Piet refuse to acknowledge it publically. Because some of them are ostricized by their dutch colleagues when they do.

Its really sad actually. Here's the thing about it. Many are offended. but not offended enough to attempt to risk losing relationships and friends and jobs over it.

Or some people are like me. I'm black, I'm dutch, and I do think that Zwarte Piet is a character built on racial stereotypes. But I don't have time or energy to go out of my way to care more than a couple comments on a message board. So I didn't even know there was a Facebook page for him +/-. That doesn't mean it isn't offensive? NO. What I don't is that many anglo dutch seem to go OUT of their way to pretend like there are NO racial connotation at ALL. Atleast after a couple years of discussion on Neogaf I definitely think the attitude has changed a bit.

 

[neorej]

Many of my friends who are living in Holland who feel offended by Zwarte Piet refuse to acknowledge it publically. Because some of them are ostricized by their dutch colleagues when they do.

Its really sad actually. Here's the thing about it. Many are offended. but not offended enough to attempt to risk losing relationships and friends and jobs over it.

Anecdotal evidence and all that. Anonymous research shows that 4% are offended by ZP. 4%!

 

[methane47]

Anecdotal evidence and all that. Anonymous research shows that 4% are offended by ZP. 4%!

You do realize that the Black Population in The Netherlands is probably ~3% Right?

 

[PJV3]

That is a odd defense I hear often. People say something is a little racist and the retort is "how could you brand me with such a word? It will cause downfall upon me and ruin my seed."

Things can be a little racist. When Obama highlighted that female Governor's looks over her qualifications it was a little sexist. Yet instead of defending why they didn't think it was a little sexist people acted as if we were comparing Obama to a Nazi, or KKK member.

We will never progress on issues like the one presented in the thread if when people question it's origin or intent the defenders reverse-Godwin whenever the charge of something inappropriate is brought up. There exists a ground between Totally Inclusive and Non-Offensive to all --------- Holocaust. Let's try to examine things like they exist in that middle ground.

Edit: I realize you weren't making that charge.

I just think it puts people into defensive mode, dressing up like a golliwog is pretty dumb in 2013, but there's obviously love for the character not driven by hate.

Change will come from the Dutch themselves hopefully.

 

[itsgreen]

Many of my friends who are living in Holland who feel offended by Zwarte Piet refuse to acknowledge it publically. Because some of them are ostricized by their dutch colleagues when they do.

Its really sad actually. Here's the thing about it. Many are offended. but not offended enough to attempt to risk losing relationships and friends and jobs over it.

Or some people are like me. I'm black, I'm dutch, and I do think that Zwarte Piet is a character built on racial stereotypes. But I don't have time or energy to go out of my way to care more than a couple comments on a message board. So I didn't even know there was a Facebook page for him +/-. That doesn't mean it isn't offensive? NO. What I don't is that many anglo dutch seem to go OUT of their way to pretend like there are NO racial connotation at ALL. Atleast after a couple years of discussion on Neogaf I definitely think the attitude has changed a bit.

That is their problem if they don't want to speak out. Can't really do anything about that.

And don't forget that our response to everybody, EVERYBODY, who complains about anything is 'stel je niet zo aan zeikerd, iedereen voelt zich wel offended door iets'

Also bull. fucking. shit. you show your face every year in the Zwarte Pieten thread and have endless discussions.

Next to that, and I could be mistaken, but don't you live in Florida for over a decade and how much time have you spend in your entire (30? year) life time in the Netherlands, as far as I can remember you have visited friends a couple of times. I don't expect someone who has visited a couple of times to know how Sinterklaas is experienced.

 

[Hrothgar]

Anglo-Dutch, methane? What is this people you speak of?

 

[itsgreen]

Anglo-Dutch, methane? What is this people you speak of?

White people...