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Zwarte Piet is a throwback to slavery, says UN working party chief

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A

Azih

Member
itsgreen said:
That is their problem if they don't want to speak out. Can't really do anything about that.
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Is it? Being pressured by your peers to not speak out isn't a problem? It gets right to the heart of it.

People who actually try to change the ugly tradition to something racially neutral have to back off due to threats of violence.

http://www.nltimes.nl/2013/10/24/no-rainbow-pieten-after-threat/

How can you honestly pretend that the discussion in The Netherlands is anywhere close to being open and inclusive? It isn't, not by a long damn shot. Do you really think that the majority isn't pressuring the minority to stay silent on this at all?
 
Arjen

Arjen

Member
Azih said:
How can you honestly pretend that the discussion in The Netherlands is anywhere close to being open and inclusive? It isn't, not by a long damn shot. Do you really think that the majority isn't pressuring the minority to stay silent on this?
Click to expand...

Sadly have to agree with this. Most people with a different opinion will keep their mouth shut.
 
I

itsgreen

Member
Azih said:
Is it? Being pressured by your peers to not speak out isn't a problem? It gets right to the heart of it.

People who actually try to change the ugly tradition to something racially neutral have to back off due to threats of violence.

How can you honestly pretend that the discussion in The Netherlands is anywhere close to being open and inclusive? It isn't, not by a long damn shot. Do you really think that the majority isn't pressuring the minority to stay silent on this at all?
Click to expand...

It is obviously ridiculous to use any kind of violence or make threats. But that seems to be the norm nowadays for wacko's. Like today the news came out that a researcher who skeptical about a wolf in Flevoland had multiple death threats...
 
M

methane47

Member
itsgreen said:
That is their problem if they don't want to speak out. Can't really do anything about that.

And don't forget that our response to everybody, EVERYBODY, who complains about anything is 'stel je niet zo aan zeikerd, iedereen voelt zich wel offended door iets'

Also bull. fucking. shit. you show your face every year in the Zwarte Pieten thread and have endless discussions.

Next to that, and I could be mistaken, but don't you live in Florida for over a decade and how much time have you spend in your entire (30? year) life time in the Netherlands, as far as I can remember you have visited friends a couple of times. I don't expect someone who has visited a couple of times to know how Sinterklaas is experienced.
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Bull Shit that what? I said that I comment on forums, but I'm not actively looking up Zwarte Piet stuff on Facebook and other Social networks to put in my 2 cents there.

And I live in St. Maarten. But I have siblings, cousins, friends, family all living in the Netherlands their whole life. I grew up with a really lame version of Zwarte Piet here on the island but I can grasp what my friends who grew up with the real version in Holland feel.

But ya I'll reiterate my problem with Zwarte Piet. I'm not really personally immensely offended by it. But I'm more offended when Some people refuse to even acknowledge that a racial component even exists. Its like a spit in the face.
 
A

Azih

Member
itsgreen said:
It is obviously ridiculous to use any kind of violence or make threats. But that seems to be the norm nowadays for wacko's.
Click to expand...
The hidden element to this though is that this kind of behaviour is a spectrum and these idiots are only on the extreme end of it. Then you have a slightly larger bunch of people who cheer and egg them on and think "serves them right", then past that another larger bunch who go "Well they shouldn't go that far but protesting this is right" and then "Well we shouldn't protest this and let them do whatever but I agree with the sentiment behind it this lovely tradition isn't racist at all in any way!" etc.

All of these has a chilling effect on discourse especially in a situation where a minority feels like they're being expected to conform to a beloved mainstream tradition and to prove their Dutch credentials at all times in a way that doesn't even apply to natives.

Edit: The only counterpoint that see in support of this is "It's tradition!". If that's it, then it isn't enough.
 
I

itsgreen

Member
methane47 said:
But ya I'll reiterate my problem with Zwarte Piet. I'm not really personally immensely offended by it. But I'm more offended when Some people refuse to even acknowledge that a racial component even exists. Its like a spit in the face.
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Oh we don't have a problem with eachother then :) I have no problem acknowledging racial influences in the creation of Zwarte Piet.

But I do believe they aren't a factor in how Zwarte Piet is perceived nowadays and what he symbolizes.

You should read: https://decorrespondent.nl/233/wat-we-niet-zien/5971790-4cb6c638, it is pretty good balanced and fair article imo.
 
N

neorej

ERMYGERD!
methane47 said:
You do realize that the Black Population in The Netherlands is probably ~3% Right?
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You do realize that you just pulled that figure out of your arse, right?
Even cities with a predominantly black population like Rotterdam support Zwarte Piet's existence with numbers in the 90-100% bracket. Amsterdam has the lowest support for Zwarte Piet, around 65%, and if I recall correctly, those were mostly white respondents who consider ZP racist and offensive.
 
G

Goku

Banned
Big Baybee said:
But............his look is totally based on race. This is what I mean, you can't have a serious conversation about it if you aren't even willing to acknowledge the racial element. We are all fucking adults here.
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I can't deny his looks aren't based on race. In Amercan history, those looks have a demeaning history, therefor I can imagine how someone dressed like that would appear demeaning, in the USA.
It's not the same in theNetherlands. Yes, his looks have racial origins, but not with the purpose, intention or mission to demean or offend a part of the population. This is a key difference. When outsiders see Zwarte Piet, they say hey it's blackface. When you tell a Dutchman hey that's blackface, he'll ask you "what's blackface?".
 
A

Azih

Member
Goku said:
Yes, his looks have racial origins, but not with the purpose, intention or mission to demean or offend a part of the population.
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The argument shouldn't be reduced to "It's bad because it's blackface." It's bad because that character has in the past been an enslaved devil and then a stupid black person and is now a subservient black underling to the white man in charge. You have to be incredibly obtuse to not see the problem with all this.

It's a tradition for children? White children don't give a shit so change it.
 
I

itsgreen

Member
Azih said:
The argument shouldn't be reduced to "It's bad because it's blackface." It's bad because that character has in the past been an enslaved devil and then a stupid black person and is now a subservient black underling to the white man in charge. You have to be incredibly obtuse to not see the problem with all this.

It's a tradition for children? White children don't give a shit so change it.
Click to expand...

Except... he is much more equal than that. Compare it to a boss employee relationship.
 
J

Joni

Member
He is a black man that spend his time helping an aging white man. He is a caretaker for a geriatric patient.
 
A

Azih

Member
itsgreen said:
Except... he is much more equal than that. Compare it to a boss employee relationship.
Click to expand...

Yeah black people are employees and bosses are white men. We want that image to be celebrated every year. The history of the character is odious (which matters greatly) and the present reality of it is incredibly problematic.
 
A

Azih

Member
itsgreen said:
Because black people don't work for white people?
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What does that have to do with anything?

I'm speaking about reinforcing a cultural stereotype of the place of black people as being in inferior positions to white people. Now if you're saying that cultural stereotype just does not exist in the Netherlands then I'm going to call full on BS on that.
 
I

itsgreen

Member
Azih said:
What does that have to do with anything?

I'm speaking about reinforcing a cultural stereotype of black people as being in inferior positions to white people.
Click to expand...

That is YOUR cultural stereotype.

This much much much less the case in the Netherlands.

We don't share the same culture.
 
G

Goku

Banned
itsgreen said:
Because black people don't work for white people? :
Click to expand...

You're wording it quite awkwardly here lol


Azih said:
The argument shouldn't be reduced to "It's bad because it's blackface." It's bad because that character has in the past been an enslaved devil and then a stupid black person and is now a subservient black underling to the white man in charge. You have to be incredibly obtuse to not see the problem with all this.

It's a tradition for children? White children don't give a shit so change it.
Click to expand...

This is the root of the problem. Outsiders see it as black people working for a white man, while it's Zwarte Piet assisting Sinterklaas. The Dutch don't see at all a black person working for a white man. In fact, I'm willing to say that the people who are saying this is racist are beeing subconsciously racist themselves for putting their vision and their interpretation in our months.
 
A

Azih

Member
Kabouter said:
I think he's upset at the fact that it's one white man being in charge of countless black men, I don't think he's upset at any depiction of a black man working for a white man.
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Them being many does make it much much worse (identical underling workers with the same attributes and personality) but even if it was just one Pete it still has the same basic problem.

Look, the current image of the Pieten is completely analogous to the helper Keebler elves of the American coca cola santa. I get that. But, even ignoring the much worse history of the Pieten as compared to the elves, why do they have to be Black people in the Netherlands? The visual association with a people makes all the difference. And no elves aren't midgets. Elves are mythological fantasy creatures.

If the Pieten were blue, or ponycorns, or reindeers, then we wouldn't be having this convesation. They're black with afros and large red lips! Before this they were stupid Moors, and before that enslaved devils. All three aren't good.

I'm willing to say that the people who are saying this is racist are beeing subconsciously racist themselves
Click to expand...
Calling out obvious racism... isn't racism. You might as well be Stephen Colbert claiming that he "doesn't see color".
 
G

Goku

Banned
Azih said:
Them being many does make it much much worse (identical underling workers with the same attributes and personality) but even if it was just one Pete it still has the same basic problem.
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You are fundametally wrong. Let me introduce:
Muziek Piet (Looks like elvis)
muziekpiet534.jpg


Kleur-Piet, French artist kind of guy
180px-Kleurpietmartijn.png


There are many others, varying from a cook to a professor:
 
M

Metrotab

Banned
Azih said:
Them being many does make it much much worse (identical underling workers with the same attributes and personality) but even if it was just one Pete it still has the same basic problem.
Click to expand...

This is not universally true among all depictions.

And Zwarte Piet may as well be considered a mythological character. He gets treated as one, rather than a pastiche of colonialist views on black people.
 
A

Azih

Member
Metrotab said:
This is not universally true among all depictions.
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Alright, some depictions don't make them identical. I stand corrected on that. The main core of the concern remains.

And Zwarte Piet may as well be considered a mythological character. He gets treated as one, rather than a pastiche of colonialist views on black people.
Click to expand...

Then make him full on mythological. Break the incredibly unfortunate visual association with black people (with the afros and the red lips). Make them Red or something to match St.Nicholas' robes or Green to match Evergreen trees.
 
G

Goku

Banned
Azih said:
Then make him full on mythological. Break the incredibly unfortunate visual association with black people (with the afros and the red lips). Make them Red or something to match St.Nicholas' robes or Green to match Evergreen trees.
Click to expand...
If we'd paint him red instead of black today, would that change his roots? The whole debate is based on the roots of Zwarte Piet and how it's supposedly a throwback to slavery. Painting him red will only change that from from a charicature of a black person to a charicature of a black person with red face paint.
 
I

itsgreen

Member
Goku said:
If we'd paint him red instead of black today, would that change his roots? The whole debate is based on the roots of Zwarte Piet and how it's supposedly a throwback to slavery. Painting him red will only change that from from a charicature of a black person to a charicature of a black person with red face paint.
Click to expand...

Also why should we change something because other people misinterpret him because they view him from their culture with their history.
 
A

Azih

Member
Goku said:
If we'd paint him red instead of black today, would that change his roots? The whole debate is based on the roots of Zwarte Piet and how it's supposedly a throwback to slavery. Painting him red will only change that from from a charicature of a black person to a charicature of a black person with red face paint.
Click to expand...

I've highlighted problems both with his past and his visual depiction in the present. Not just one or the other. And none of those problems have anything to do with blackface either.

Changing the visual depiction to not be a black person (complete with afros and red lips) would fix the present problem AND create a final break with the problematic past (which is what you guys have been trying to do ANYWAY in a half assed way with the 'soot' nonsense).
 
YourMaster

YourMaster

Member
People are reluctant to 'give up' something on their tradition, for what they feel isn't a good reason. Many of the changes suggested do in fact take away from it:
  • If you change the color, a lot of the historical children's songs people know wouldn't work anymore
  • If you take away the makeup altogether children will recognize Piet as their uncle or neighbor
  • If you take away the colorful lips, earrings, costume it all looks less festive.

My suggestion therefore would not be to remove something from Zwarte Piet, but to add something new, something fun for children. Doesn't matter what, but something that clearly distinguishes them from real black people. Perhaps red noses, or bunny ears, anything really.
Come up with a clear story for all children already used to the current ones on why the change, make it a celebration, and be done with it.
 
G

Goku

Banned
YourMaster said:
People are reluctant to 'give up' something on their tradition, for what they feel isn't a good reason. Many of the changes suggested do in fact take away from it:
  • If you change the color, a lot of the historical children's songs people know wouldn't work anymore
  • If you take away the makeup altogether children will recognize Piet as their uncle or neighbor
  • If you take away the colorful lips, earrings, costume it all looks less festive.

My suggestion therefore would not be to remove something from Zwarte Piet, but to add something new, something fun for children. Doesn't matter what, but something that clearly distinguishes them from real black people. Perhaps red noses, or bunny ears, anything really.
Come up with a clear story for all children already used to the current ones on why the change, make it a celebration, and be done with it.
Click to expand...

But still, that wouldn't cater to the issue. Adding attribute to Zwarte Piet will make him a charicature of black person + added attributes.

Azih said:
I've highlighted problems both with his past and his visual depiction in the present. Not just one or the other. And none of those problems have anything to do with blackface either.

Changing the visual depiction to not be a black person (complete with afros and red lips) would fix the present problem AND create a final break with the problematic past (which is what you guys have been trying to do ANYWAY in a half assed way with the 'soot' nonsense).
Click to expand...

The problem is that Piet is not trying to be a black person and Piet is not a black person. This is the core of the story. His visual depiction doesn't make him a black person either. Do black people have fire red lips and soot black skin? They don't. The Dutch would say: "Voel je niet zo aangesproken joh". I don't know how to translate it.
 
M

Metrotab

Banned
Slayven said:
I don't think you should change, but I think folks should realize it is not a good look.
Click to expand...

Sinterklaas is not an export product. Feel free to ignore it exists, and let our own societies deal with it.

He is a person, and he is black. Ergo, black person.
Click to expand...

He's Zwart, not black. We generally don't refer to black people as "zwarte mensen".
 
way more

way more

Member
David Sedaris makes a good point on the event in his writing "Six to Eight Black Men."
The words silly and unrealistic were redefined when I learned that Saint Nicolas travels with what was consistently described as “six to eight black men.” I asked several Dutch people to narrow it down, but none of them could give me an exact number. It was always “six to eight,” which seems strange, seeing as they’ve had hundreds of years to get an accurate head count.

The six to eight black men were characterized as personal slaves until the mid-1950s, when the political climate changed and it was decided that instead of being slaves they were just good friends. I think that history has proved that something usually comes between slavery and friendship, a period of time marked not by cookies and quiet hours beside the fire but by bloodshed and mutual hostility.
Click to expand...

It just seems odd to flip the switch between slave to work acquaintance without a bit more reflection.

Actually, was there some sort of ceremony for that change? Maybe a declaration and a "hereforth let it be known . . .?"
 
Dude Abides

Dude Abides

Banned
daxy said:
His point is clear. Looking from the outside in, you think it in some way perpetuates racism while a member of the community that tradition belongs to doesn't even think about possibly hurtful connotations and doesn't consider them in the spirit of the wider tradition. You just made his entire point.
Click to expand...

This bears no relationship to what I said, since I expressed no view on the subject of whether Thanksgiving perpetuates racism. I simply pointed out that they're not analogous since we don't have a Thanksgiving mascot who like Chief Wahoo that we then retconned.
 
S

Scipius

Member
Dude Abides said:
This bears no relationship to what I said, since I expressed no view on the subject of whether Thanksgiving perpetuates racism. I simply pointed out that they're not analogous since we don't have a Thanksgiving mascot who like Chief Wahoo that we then retconned.
Click to expand...

That's not the point; the analogy lies in the fact that in both cases a small minority finds a tradition offensive because it is insensitive to or ignorant of what it represents to this minority. Those who follow the tradition are adamant that this representation is not what the tradition is about and don't see a need for change.

To what extent then should the sentiments of this minority be acknowledged?
 
way more

way more

Member
Scipius said:
That's not the point; the analogy lies in the fact that in both cases a small minority finds a tradition offensive because it is insensitive to or ignorant of what it represents to this minority. Those who follow the tradition are adamant that this representation is not what the tradition is about and don't see a need for change.

To what extent then should the sentiments of this minority be acknowledged?
Click to expand...

It would be nice if they went beyond "No, it's not offensive. What, you think he is portraying a black person? Haha, no, he just happens to be black for no apparent reason."
 
M

methane47

Member
neorej said:
You do realize that you just pulled that figure out of your arse, right?
Even cities with a predominantly black population like Rotterdam support Zwarte Piet's existence with numbers in the 90-100% bracket. Amsterdam has the lowest support for Zwarte Piet, around 65%, and if I recall correctly, those were mostly white respondents who consider ZP racist and offensive.
Click to expand...

"Predominantly" meaning MOST? You are really telling me... that Rotterdam is MOSTLY Black people?

Come on man. Where did you even get those numbers from? I made my estimate CIA's World Book
Code: 
Netherlands	 Dutch 80.7%, EU 5%, Indonesian 2.4%, Turkish 2.2%, Surinamese 2%, Moroccan 2%, Caribbean 0.8%, other 4.8% (2008 est.)


You can also look at the Official Dutch statistics website
http://statline.cbs.nl/StatWeb/publication/?VW=T&DM=SLNL&PA=37296ned&D1=a&D2=0,10,20,30,40,50,60,(l-1),l&HD=130605-0924&HDR=G1&STB=T

Which gives similar numbers.
(Ofcourse this is based on my reasonable assumption that the large majority of blacks in holland are originally from the Antilles and Suriname.)

Now your turn. Show me where you found that the MAJORITY of Rotterdam is black.
And Show me the evidence that my numbers are as you say pulled from my arse
 
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