PjotrStroganov
Member
It's interesting to see that the tone of discussion has changed in the yearly ZP thread. It seems that many Dutch people over here tend to have a less knee jerk reaction to the issue.
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'Zwarte Piet' Controversy Leads To 90 Arrests In Netherlands
- Thread starter maquiladora
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As I said, I know that colonialism didn't end until the Second World War, I just worded this wrong (the book came out after the Dutch abolished slavery). Anyway, my response wasn't really specifically aimed at you, but there's this idea going around that Zwarte Piet is this age-old tradition going back to the times where the Dutch were the biggest slave traders in the world (a period in time we're not proud of and no one in their right mind would celebrate this) while it's not and I just wanted to set the record straight.
It appears you and I have a very different opinion on what is peaceful. Therefor this discussion is moot.
I'll leave you with this; over the years, people have been naturally adjusting Piet's appearance gradually and, most importantly, voluntarily. According to psychologists around the globe, this is the best form of change, because people will hardly recognise the change. "Boil a frog in slowly heating water and he'll accept his fate, throw a frog in boiling water and he jumps out" is a much-used metaphor on how change is best applied. These are not the tactics employed by Quinsy Gario and his movement.
Raven Prime
Member
The painting on the carriage is even called "Hulde aan de Koloniën"/"Tribute to the Colonies". So we can say for sure it's glorifying colonialism and with that theme I don't think it's outlandish to conclude it's actually depicting slavery as well.
The primary objection is the blackface caricature. The whole servants part is a smaller issue, since nothing in the story suggest Sinterklaas is employing any force to keep the Black Petes working for him. However one could argue that this exactly was a way to justify slavery, because these helpers just loved to serve their 'white' boss. Regardless if we change Pete into a etnicity neutral character we circumvent this whole problem.
If you actually read the thread you'd notice a lot of us actually do, plus there is background info in the OP.
I wouldn't call 1850 when Schenkman's book was released late 19th century, neither was it after the colonial era nor was it after the abolition of Dutch slavery.
The fact is that the modern day Zwarte Piet originated from Jan Schenkman's book. This was during the colonial era and when Zwarte Piet was transformed from a depiction in a book into an actual caricature people portrayed it got infused with pretty much all the elements visually and characteristically as the American blackface caricatures.
Whilst many of these stereotypical behaviors of Zwarte Piet have indeed disappeared, the physical appearance has roughly remained the same. For some reason you and others claim that the red lips have gone, but on the front page you can see clear examples of that not being the case. While I don't doubt that in some places the Petes don't wear red lipstick, as does the 2014 version of the Amsterdam ZP, in the majority of the towns and cities they still do.
It doesn't matter how you look at it, but in it's current form Zwarte Piet is a colonial caricature of a Sub Saharan African.
Earthpainting
Member
It definitely helps that GAF spreads across the globe. It's a lot easier to understand what the issue is when you see different iterations pop up in other countries, and hear people's experiences with them. When all your associations with a variant blackface are memories of fun, good times and presents, it's easy to see why people who lack other perspectives will be more resistant.
I grew up in a household where we didn't celebrate it because of my expat father, and me and my siblings didn't understand why. We figured it was similar to why my neighbours didn't celebrate Christmas, so we never really questioned it. It wasn't until I was well into my 20s that I learned about how it was a "classic" racial caricature. Our local one may not be consciously mean-spirited any more, but it is still using the racist imagery that sought out to represent black people as clowns. Eventhough we never actively partook in the celebrations, I still felt guilt washing over me with the realisation. Coming to grips with your ignorance can be pretty powerful and scary. The golden carriage design feels kind of similar. You see that thing every year, but I never stopped to look at what was actually on it.
While the Dutch were major participants in the slave trade, and were responsible for untold atrocities, there was no such time. Some estimates of the figures here.
Raven Prime
Member
They were peaceful protests, don't believe everything the Telegraaf writes or what PowNews says.
And yes normally gradual change is the optimal course. However we are dealing with a racist caricature that is hurtful to many people, minorities and those aware of Dutch history alike. As explained the caricature has been around long enough, but he has changed very little and slowly over the years. Now in a time of accelerated understanding and growing social outrage, Zwarte Piet and those that fail to see the problem too will have to face accelerated change. Also whilst I clearly can't say Quinsy Gario has nothing to do with this, paradoxically I'll claim he has nothing to do with this. This movement is far bigger than one man. We perhaps must be thankful to him for providing the crucial spark in this current debate, but the movement has since then gained tremendous momentum.
When faced with racism and oppression, you can't just say to those that suffer "be patient". Of course they'll have to be, but you can't demand nor expect it of them. As swiftly as possible this change has to be manifested.
There are a couple of reasons that this issue has been here for way too long :
The (both local and national) government is highly involved in the organizing of the event and everything around it. It is not like Santa here where 99% is arranged by the local stores/groups but this is something big (like organizing queens/kings day here). Thus anything that is remotely offensive is either condoned or supported directly by the government (and things like national tv channels). This makes it a very interesting and dangerous topic (see the heated discussions). Everyone is involved and opinions and solutions need to be coordinated but are done too slow.
The changes over time were instigated too slow and now are being rushed. Every single person can see that this at the very least could offend people (what to do with that given is a different discussion). Change is needed and has started a couple of years ago. But now that things are getting more and more heated up there is no easy way out. This could have easily be solved by making small but effective changes over time. Sadly this started way too late. So now people feel the need to protest more on both sides.
I do agree with Raven here that something like this has to happen to make an actual change. As long as shit does not hit the fan we are way too comfortable to leave things as it is (and as it has been done the past 30 or so years).
Best solution in my eyes would be to go back to the old old old way of celebrating (before the books/stories on Sint & Piet) by having demon like creatures that scare the shit out of kids.
The (both local and national) government is highly involved in the organizing of the event and everything around it. It is not like Santa here where 99% is arranged by the local stores/groups but this is something big (like organizing queens/kings day here). Thus anything that is remotely offensive is either condoned or supported directly by the government (and things like national tv channels). This makes it a very interesting and dangerous topic (see the heated discussions). Everyone is involved and opinions and solutions need to be coordinated but are done too slow.
The changes over time were instigated too slow and now are being rushed. Every single person can see that this at the very least could offend people (what to do with that given is a different discussion). Change is needed and has started a couple of years ago. But now that things are getting more and more heated up there is no easy way out. This could have easily be solved by making small but effective changes over time. Sadly this started way too late. So now people feel the need to protest more on both sides.
I do agree with Raven here that something like this has to happen to make an actual change. As long as shit does not hit the fan we are way too comfortable to leave things as it is (and as it has been done the past 30 or so years).
Best solution in my eyes would be to go back to the old old old way of celebrating (before the books/stories on Sint & Piet) by having demon like creatures that scare the shit out of kids.
Ah, the good old Portuguese golden age...
I was agreeing with your basic idea, but taking it a step further. You said "are much more neutral", I said "not even comparable".
Raven Prime
Member
Haha, I'm not sure if we'll need to take the Krampus road. We have established Piet as a friendly and benevolent character, so no need to change that. Although personally I'm not againts the reintroduction of pre-Christian elements with these types of celebrations. But for the children's sake I'll argue against it, at least in this case.
I hope you aren't actually romanticizing that era.The Dutch also considered the height of their colonial days a 'golden age'. But as a modern man you have to see through the propaganda of your own cultural/national narrative.
That's probably because the whole thing, unlike here on GAF, wasn't an issue at all within the Netherlands until last year. People from other countries have always had problems with Zwarte Piet but it wasn't until 2013 that people from the Netherlands itself began seriously discussing the issue.
You've got to realise, and that is something most people simply can't understand, that if you live in the Netherlands Zwarte Piet generally isn't viewed as some blackface caricature of black people nor as a slave to a white man while that's the obvious first reaction a foreigner would have. Even if his depiction is racist don't forget that he is a very positive character. Most Dutch would have laughed if you told us five years ago that Zwarte Piet would be headline news and the biggest topic of discussion in the Netherlands today because you'd have a hard time finding anyone who deemed the character very offensive even among black skinned people. Of course, as a white person I'm not a credible source and I'm not saying there where none at all (obviously there were), but it certainly wasn't a majority and probably still isn't if you look past the vocal group of protesters (judging by the general reactions of the public on TV and the internet, alot of black skinned people used to not give a shit and think the whole discussion has been blown out of proportion. In fact, this guy even made a silly rap song about it).
But hey, even if a minority takes offense (and of course they have good reason to do so) that shouldn't be ignored so I think something like the picture below should satisfy both traditionalists and protesters.
That was ironic, if it wasn't obvious. It always bothers me how we Portuguese people glorify the age of discovery without contextualizing it with all the bad shit we did.
FFS, one of our national heroes is a super-villain in a Malasian film...
My stance within the discussion is based on the connotation, not the denotation. I fully agree that the denotation of Zwarte Piet is highly racially insensitive. I personally wouldn't say racist in the same sense that a book like Oki en Doki bij de Nikkers or the early versions of Kuifje in Afrika are racist, where the non-white natives are pictured as dumb, uncivilized and in Oki and Doki's case cannibalistic people. ZP's portrayal has never been quite that negative, but it's definitely kind of wrong if you purely look at how ZP looks. But when you look at the denotation you can't exclude the servant part from the equation, which is equally as wrong as the blackface part IMO.
I choose to look at how we actually see ZP though, we see something completely different. No kid and few parents have ever seen ZP as a racist caricature before this whole discussion started all those years ago. They are loving people that give children joy and candy and this whole discussion is completely irrelevant to any of this. I have no qualms with changing the look of Zwarte Piet, none at all. You can change the color whatever you want in my opinion, as long as it doesn't hurt the kids' enjoyment of the festival. Personally I think it's brilliant how Het Sinterklaasjounraal handled the narrative for the different colored Petes this year, just like it was brilliant how they handled it when Bram van der Vlugt quit and Kees Flodder took over.
But again, the anti-ZP group is mainly looking at ZP from a denotation perspective and IMO changing the color doesn't change the fact that from a pure objective standpoint the whole concept of ZP is still iffy. Simply changing the color isn't the answer, because you'd still have colored people working for free for a white man and people are still going to complain about this.
Raven Prime
Member
That's probably because the whole thing, unlike here on GAF, wasn't an issue at all within the Netherlands until last year. People from other countries have always had problems with Zwarte Piet but it wasn't until 2013 that people from the Netherlands itself began seriously discussing the issue.
You've got to realise, and that is something most people simply can't understand, that if you live in the Netherlands Zwarte Piet generally isn't viewed as some blackface caricature of black people nor as a slave to a white man while that's the obvious first reaction a foreigner would have. Even if his depiction is racist don't forget that he is a very positive character. Most Dutch would have laughed if you told us five years ago that Zwarte Piet would be headline news and the biggest topic of discussion in the Netherlands today because you'd have a hard time finding anyone who deemed the character very offensive even among black skinned people. Of course, as a white person I'm not a credible source and I'm not saying there where none at all (obviously there were), but it certainly wasn't a majority and probably still isn't if you look past the vocal group of protesters (judging by the general reactions of the public on TV and the internet, alot of black skinned people used to not give a shit and think the whole discussion has been blown out of proportion. In fact, this guy even made a silly rap song about it).
But hey, even if a minority takes offense (and of course they have good reason to do so) that shouldn't be ignored so I think something like the picture below should satisfy both traditionalists and protesters.
That's untrue, the ZPiR protests began in 2011. And even before that there was protest, but it was far more isolated. I guess it's testament to the power of social media, once again. But way before that there were already famous people voicing the problem on national television. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIc715Md_MU (Sorry it's in Dutch).
Also for me the Zwarte Piet problem is already found in the appearance of Zwarte Piet, not the accompanying narrative or even the precise portrayal.
I figured as much. But sarcasm doesn't always translate well on the internet.
I'm convinced that the inherent otherization that the caricature of Zwarte Piet represents is harmful and in fact supports the perpetuation of racist stereotypes. Most people in the Netherlands and Belgium have no racist intentions when they celebrate Sinterklaas that much is true. But the imagery persists and isn't innocent in itself. It's funny that you mentioned Oki en Doki, because it brought to mind this collage that shows a comparison of Zwarte Piet and other colonial/blackface depictions.
We could protest the fact that Zwarte Piet is a servant, but for all intents and purposes him and Sinterklaas should be considered fairytale figures. As long as they aren't morally reprehensive, I don't think that component will hurt anyone.
Let me phrase it differently, as long as we make Piet ethnicity neutral asap, then we can take a gradual approach with his exact role and other details of the narrative. I feel the racist caricature has to be dismantled and then all other elements will fall into place sooner or later.
Yeah, I know it began earlier than 2013 but I'm just trying to say it wasn't really a major talking point in the Netherlands until that year. The anti Zwarte Piet movement in 2011 was very small and mostly ignored by media and people in general.
And that video is about people calling black skinned people Zwarte Piet that is racist, not Zwarte Piet itself being racist, there is a big difference. And it's from a time period when racism based on nothing but skin color was a way bigger issue than it is today in the Netherlands (Dutch racists mostly base their racism on nationality nowdays, not like that is an improvement but it is a different situation). Like I said earlier; racism doesn't stop just because you take a word away. That is an entirely different issue alltogether.
I would say ethnicity rather than nationality. If you have, say, Surinamese heritage, you're Surinamese to most Dutch people, now and forever, regardless of your passport. I'd also say racism continues to be a pretty large issue, especially given how pervasive it is.
Raven Prime
Member
If you know Sesame Street then you understand that isn't the place to have a discussion about Zwarte Piet itself being a racist caricature. The point is the problem is old, people have been complaining. Some people complain about this element, others complain about that element. But fact of the matter is that it has always been problematic, and there have always been people suffering because of it.
That's very true. If you aren't of West-European decent then the odds are you won't be considered Dutch. This is very different compared to America, where people are considered actual Americans regardless of heritage. However Americans do tend to put everyone into a race box.
Also most Surinamese and Antillian people will also be 'negers' first and foremost. I would go so far as to claim that to many Dutch people Surinamer is a synonym for 'neger' whilst in reality the Surinamese people consist of many different ethnicities themselves.
You are right, I meant ethnicity anyway but used the wrong word.
People suffering under racism? Absolutely. People suffering under the current depiction of Zwarte Piet? Like I said (and once again, I'm white so blame me all you want for not being a credible source on this because I am not), the majority of black skinned people used to not take offense anyway since Zwarte Piet to most people is nothing but a silly and fun character who delivers presents to kids. It's a minority within a minority who mostly just have a problem with his appearance. They should, of course, be listened to since his portrayal is (or at least used to be) racist and undeniably has roots in an unfortunate history.
However, I don't agree with people who act like most of the non-white population has 'suffered' because of Sinterklaas for years and just now dare to speak about it. Especially children, who Sinterklaas is for to begin with, have never really had a problem with Zwarte Piet no matter what race they are. You take offense at Zwarte Piet and you suffer because of racism, but you don't suffer because Zwarte Piet is a thing (unless you say the character in its current form is completely racist and should dissapear, not just its appearence, but I wouldn't agree with that either).
This really annoys me. I'm half-Surinamese myself and people are always confused when I tell them my ethnicity because I look like an average caucasian male (people usually get that I'm not fully Dutch, but just assume for some reason that I'm from Italy or Spain). I have to tell them that not everyone with a Surinamese heritage looks the same. A former friend of mine even asked me once why I wasn't named Quincy or Dwight, I was like: "Seriously? That's fucking racist, man."
Zwarte Piet was never a slave, because at least since Christianity took foothold, slavery was never officially allowed in the Netherlands on the grounds of being un-Christian (the colonies, far away from prying eyes, is a different matter entirely). AFAIK there was a recognition of foreign slaves, so if a foreign or colonial slaveholder would enter the country with a slave, that slave would be granted a visa for something like a maximum of four weeks, but was not allowed to stay for longer; I believe on 'penalty' of being freed even. Zwarte Piet was always a servant. Like the Dutch word there is now a negative connotation with that name, but it's more of an employee.
Don't mean to downplay the Netherlands' horrible dealings in slavery and I agree that the way Zwarte Piet is depicted is a racial caricature that needs to be altered (though I have no problem with a future where they are covered in black 'soot', just with different hairstyles, no red lips and no earrings), just thought I'd clear that up.
Don't mean to downplay the Netherlands' horrible dealings in slavery and I agree that the way Zwarte Piet is depicted is a racial caricature that needs to be altered (though I have no problem with a future where they are covered in black 'soot', just with different hairstyles, no red lips and no earrings), just thought I'd clear that up.
Internet has done it, making things offensive for people who never cared for it before. Well played america, reigniting hatred where there was none before only because you believed your point of view was the only one worth defending. This is just going to exacerbate racial relations, then add a sprinkle of economic crysis and you get europe back to nationalism.
Aeriscloud
Banned
Raven Prime
Member
Many people object to the presence of this racist caricature, regardless of their ethnic background. Many people want to make it an us vs. them, but in reality it isn't, at least not along ethnic lines. It's a colonialism aware vs. colonialism unaware problem
Also you are incorrect about the children not having a problem, many children are harrassed during the celebrations even throughout the year.
Watch this video series https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnmT_pIyG74 and comment again on the matter.
And who is to decide what the darker skinned populations in the Netherlands have actually endured? It's not like these people dominate the media or the public discourse. It's established that the grandchildren of Holocaust survivors still suffer the effects, I would argue that the decendents of the victims of colonialism and slavery also still suffer the effects. These things can be very subtle and nearly invisible, but internalized racism is an actual thing. Look noone is sobbing 24/7/365 because of the fact that Zwarte Piet is so painful, but regardless it's presence is very painful and very explicitly illustrates a cultural otherization process.
lol at the protest area in relation to the parade route and the event itself. hilarious.
this is the way protesting works folks. if you're not at the event itself making yourself heard, you might as well protest from home. the Arrested Development pic was apt, and funny.
yeeeeeeeeeesh.
the poster is pathetically transparent in their line of questioning. im sure you knew what they were getting at though. of course they confirmed it and their final response was just as pathetic.
did you even bother to read the very fist post in this thread much less the rest of them? lol
this is the way protesting works folks. if you're not at the event itself making yourself heard, you might as well protest from home. the Arrested Development pic was apt, and funny.
yeeeeeeeeeesh.
the poster is pathetically transparent in their line of questioning. im sure you knew what they were getting at though. of course they confirmed it and their final response was just as pathetic.
did you even bother to read the very fist post in this thread much less the rest of them? lol
The thing is, this is a children's festival and not only is it that, most of those children fully believe that what they're seeing is 100% real. What do you think happens when you put a bunch of protesters that protest the thing that these kids believe right in the middle of this? People are gonna have a lot of awkward conversations with their kids.
It's not as easy as that. Sinterklaas is a multi-million euros business in The Netherlands that depends on kids believing in something. If every parent tells his/her kids that Sinterklaas isn't real and that Zwarte Piet is racist, the festivities will probably die or at least take a major hit.
Look at it this way, what if Americans today decided that Santa was offensive and every parent in the US told their kids why Santa's bad and that they shouldn't enjoy Christmas because of it. Multiple companies would go bankrupt or at least lose a significant part of their income.
Won't somebody please think of the poor businesses profiting from and perpetuating racism!!
As a White person, I don't think you're entitled to determine what constitutes suffering from a racist caricature. Nor do your claim that the majority of Black people in the Netherlands aren't offended count as a valid source - unless you actually have valid statitistics on it? Otherwise you're just speaking from your own racially narrow experiences as a White person in a White supremacist society.
Yup, until Europeans started to actually listen to their oppressed citizens, there were no racism at all. Everything was fine and dandy, especially in the 15th to the 20th century in Europe when it came to racial relations.
As a White person, I don't think you're entitled to determine what constitutes suffering from a racist caricature. Nor do your claim that the majority of Black people in the Netherlands aren't offended count as a valid source - unless you actually have valid statitistics on it? Otherwise you're just speaking from your own racially narrow experiences as a White person in a White supremacist society.
Yup, until Europeans started to actually listen to their oppressed citizens, there were no racism at all. Everything was fine and dandy, especially in the 15th to the 20th century in Europe when it came to racial relations.
This is why I state clearly;
Of course my claims are based on nothing by my unreliable white people viewpoint, but unless there are actual valid statistics on the matter you can't claim the majority of dark skinned people are offended too. I was just trying to point out why, in my experience as someone who's seen Sinterklaas come and go many times and was born and raised here in the Netherlands, there hasn't been much of an outrage here before the whole anti-Zwarte Piet movement got alot of attention from the media last year.
Thing is that I could point you a similair video of dark skinned people stating they have no problem with Zwarte Piet and happily celebrate it with their kids who love it. These video's aren't very reliable because they're not trying to be objective on the matter.
That's not to say those people aren't really offended, just that it doesn't represent everyone in the Netherlands (the same way a video of a few dark skinned people saying they don't mind doesn't prove anything either).
Does it matter if a majority is offended or not? Not really I guess, but I believe that isn't the case and that gives some insight into why it hasn't been until now that Zwarte Piet is changing.
We all know that some people (white and black) are okay with it and aren't racist scumbags. But others suffer from it, and that should be enough. This isn't a private celebration where "mind your own business" is a valid argument. This is as close to an official celebration as it gets, and it knowingly ostracizes a part of the population.
I don't necessarily agree with this, they have enough exposure as is, it's not at all like the AD pic. For someone who wants to change the tradition, I have to say I'm constantly aggravated by the way the protestors go about causing a lot of resentment and as such slowing the process. They have their righteous (and rightful) indignation, but the ends don't always justify the means. It's a bit like Gamergate in a sense. The lead man of the protest group is also a total bellend and a racist.
It's better than an attitude which believes the financial implications of removing racist imagery from a national holiday should at all be considered. If anything I find that more offensive than the Zwarte Piet itself.
Looking into the topic it seems to me that Zwarte Piet has been changing pretty much constantly. From being a scary demon to being a dumb slave to being a helpful childlike 'chimney sweep assistant' to the old white guy. Some other aspects such as the dumb 'black' accent is in the process of being dumped too. With the constant yearly pressure I'm really hoping that the transformation will be complete either with the rainbow option or the actual soot option.
speculawyer
Member
Well, I'm sure a mass banning helps with that.
This tradition does need to stop. It really doesn't matter if the origins were completely innocent. Depicting white Santa as the leader with a crew of 6 to 8 black subjugated helpers is just not kosher.
I feel like you're saying this sarcastically, but for the life of me I can't figure out why.
If you want to effectuate change it should be considered. Outside of America's traditions, you can also deny the local shopowners that sell guns and all the rest of the money and jobs in the weapons industry all you want, but it's not going to help your cause, especially not if you frame it as fuck America and their rednecks.
Prophet Steve
Member
Even when there are many people here that believe is is good that they left their protest zones, it is likely they have had a negative influence this way and just get more hostility against them and then many go to Wilders, noooo. If there are other demographics you dislike, Wilders is your man.
I think this year's Sinterklaas-parade already showed that it is possible to integrate different colors into the Zwarte Piet-spectrum without destroying the magic for kids and potentially harming the Holiday-income of the country. As I said in a previous post, the main source of Sinterklaas-news for kids (Het Sinterklaasjournaal) has expertly integrated the new colors into the existing narrative of Zwarte Piet. Give it a few years and the Zwarte Piet as it can be for many years has been succesfully changed without shoving adult discussions on race down kids' throats and potentially destroying a part of the economy.
Also, these aren't pre-teens we're talking about here that know racism when they see it and choose to be a part of this, these are kids from one to seven/eight years old, all they care about is candy, presents and having fun.
Brainwash them when their young, that's a great idea. It's worked for many dictators over the time.
Santa/Sinterklaas isn't the problematic part. I'm fairly certain Christmas would survive if the holiday did away with elves.
"It's nothing personal, it's just business" is not new excuse for racist shit.
Ah great, you Godwin'ed the discussion. Nice. I'm out of here, this is impossible.
Seven/Eight year olds are smarter than you give them credit for. Even if all they cared about was just the candy, it's still a meaningful discussion to have with them at that age as opposed to continuing with the current celebrations and waiting until they are in the double digits.
I can understand the considerations many are making because this is a children specific holiday so as such they are the target audience. But to me, since that is the case, it means the sooner this is done away with and the less exposure they get to it the better.
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