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[SkyOdin]

Do you think Mr. Popo is racist?

Probably, unfortunately. Japanese manga has an unfortunate history of racist caricatures of black people, dating back to the works of the father of manga: Osamu Tezuka. Tezuka's works are wonderful, but when published in the US they still had to put up a disclaimer at the start of every book about the context for why there are racist caricatures of black people in Astro Boy.

 

[Raven Prime]

I'm pretty sure the kids won't care what kind of color Piet is (I know I wouldn't have), and it is pathetic to see adults saying that they won't change their traditions for 'foreigners' and that they should change their traditions instead. Well, guess what, most of these people are as Dutch as you are.

However, I don't think they should have protested where the kids were standing... that's pathetic in its own right

I believe that the people who say they shouldn't protest in front the children who are cheering on Sinterklaas and Zwarte Piet are ignoring the problematic nature of exposing children to racist caricatures. If you have to choose between taking your kid to a peaceful protest or a racist parade, which one would you pick as a responsible parent?

Do people actually think this is a racial thing?

A lot of Dutch people don't understand the issue or just misrepresent it in many ways, it might be a form of cognitive dissonance. About 10 years ago a famous Dutch type of candy known by the name of "Negerzoenen" translatable as "Negrokisses" or even the more derogatory N-word (both those words are etymologically related in the end), got it's name changed and there was an uproar by a lot of people that didn't understand that either. So it left a sentiment wherein a lot of Dutch people bring up silly comparisons like "So, can't I say white bread anymore either?" and stuff like that. So WriterGK's logic needs to be understood in line with sentiments like those. Dutch people actually bring up nonarguments like that all the time in the Zwarte Piet debate.

 

[Orbis Tabula]

Like the neutral caucasian one's? But then I am going to be offended and we would not want that.

No, wait.. Like I said. I would never feel offended because it is a children's party.

So whether they are yellow, purple, brown or black it makes absolutely no sense to change it because certain people will always feel offended by certain things. That is society for you.

I love this post. With the words "Neutral, caucasion ones." That particular word choice seems problematic to me.

"It's not racist! We have Petes of every color! Black, yellow, brown, and normal!"

 

[Martian]

I'm pretty sure the kids won't care what kind of color Piet is (I know I wouldn't have), and it is pathetic to see adults saying that they won't change their traditions for 'foreigners' and that they should change their traditions instead. Well, guess what, most of these people are as Dutch as you are.

However, I don't think they should have protested where the kids were standing... that's pathetic in its own right

One and done. This sums up my feelings nicely.

Get rid of the red lipstick, earring and hair and give me some more stroopwafelpieten (why it said yellow pieten in the OP is beyond me).
Yeah sinterklaas might have had some racial problems in the past, but it doesnt anymore so its time to adapt.

Keep the black pieten, white pieten, stroopwafelpieten, vla pieten, give me all. Nobody should can rationally think that children get corrupted if black piet does not stay black.

I feel like this years arrival has been a good step (stuff takes time, but we are getting there I hope)

 

[kamorra]

Haha, yes we do. Google it from any country except Holland and see how the news is reporting it.


Also who are you arguing with? I guess tilting at Windmills is appropriate for this story.

Yeah, it's not that I posted some real facts why Zwarte Piet in his current form has to go away. Tilting against windmills lmao

 

[Rocket Scientist]

The saddest and most fascinating things about this are the people who end up on the news talking about how they can't believe someone is protesting black pete and how they're never going to change their tradition. My jaw drops every time I see how ignorant grown ass people can be.

 

[Paskil]

I went to The Netherlands (specifically Amsterdam) in 2007 during the week of US Thanksgiving. I was walking around after leaving Central Station waiting for the appropriate checkin time at my hostel and I stumbled across a parade. Imagine my surprise when I saw a bunch of Zwarte Piets (didn't know what the hell was going on at the time) zipping around between metal barriers, on roller skates. I had just stopped at a coffeeshop, so I had to go sit down for a little bit while my poor head recovered.

I think it's incredibly racist. I understand traditional arguments for such, but it exaggerates the appearance and demeanor of black people to comically depressing heights. Seriously Dutch folk, get your shit together.

This is your Washington Redskins, Dutch people.

 

[Sai-kun]

The classic David Sedaris piece on this issue:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYdpte1W0vk

The Christmas stuff starts around 5 minutes in and works toward the Dutch traditions.

God, David Sedaris is amazing. What a treasure.

 

[Air]

The yearly Zwarte Piet thread. Always fun. Still don't understand how someone going down a chimney turns them into a black caricature, or how someone could defend that, but glad the protests are going on.

 

[Mononoke]

Edit: I guess I answered my own question. At least for me, I find the idea of it offensive even if there wasn't a history behind it. (Although history matters). But I think the concept of mocking a race or breaking it down to a caricature is offensive regardless.

 

[kamorra]

The saddest and most fascinating things about this are the people who end up on the news talking about how they can't believe someone is protesting black pete and how they're never going to change their tradition. My jaw drops every time I see how ignorant grown ass people can be.

I think it's because they genuinely believe that there is nothing wrong with it. I did. Then I saw protest against it last year for the first time. It changed my mind. With more protest and a little more time more and more people will realise that something should change.

 

[Lime]

There's so much Europe could learn from the US when it comes to racial discourse. It's mindblowing how terribly racist many European countries can be without even realizing how offensive and harmful their behavior, culture, and structures are when it comes to people with a different skin color.

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

About 10 years ago a famous Dutch type of candy known by the name of "Negerzoenen" translatable as "Negrokisses" or even the more derogatory N-word (both those words are etymologically related in the end), got changed and there was an uproar by a lot of people that didn't understand that either.

Neger doesn't translate to that, "the N-word" translates to nikker. But it was good to change it seeing how people still haven't made up their minds whether or not neger is offensive.

 

[Malyse]

I'm not white.

But you're not black are you?

 

[NEO0MJ]

I can't believe they still insist on using such a horrible caricature, and it's not like they're an ignorant 3rd world country. Like others suggested modernize the design and make it look like people actually covered in soot instead of the abomination they use now.

 

[kamorra]

There's so much Europe could learn from the US when it comes to racial discourse. It's mindblowing how terribly racist many European countries can be without even realizing how offensive and harmful their behavior, culture, and structures are when it comes to people with a different skin color.

uhhhh.... I don't think that this true at all. Neither Europe nor the US are very good at being not racist.

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

But you're not black are you?

Interesting, answer me this: why would you think I'm not?

 

[Fallout-NL]

The saddest and most fascinating things about this are the people who end up on the news talking about how they can't believe someone is protesting black pete and how they're never going to change their tradition. My jaw drops every time I see how ignorant grown ass people can be.

Indeed, it is severely disappointing.

So much so that it is actually depressing me pretty fucking hard.

Same goes for all those long lost friends and not so lost relatives on Facebook who are deriding the zwarte piet opponents for not protesting the issue in the 'designated strike zones', 'because think of the children'. Which is besides the issue and a totally hypocrite fucking thing to hide behind. They'll get over it, surely.

 

[And_Gignac]

"Zwarte Piet controversy leads to 90 bans in Neogaf"




Isn't this like the perfect solution?

The caricature of black people is obvious. I can understand the defensiveness behind it, since no one likes to be told their cherished childhood tradition has a offensive-racist content. But well, traditions evolve and get adjusted to the current historical context all the time, the Zwarte tradition should too.

 

[Camp Lo]

A lot of Dutch people don't understand the issue or just misrepresent it in many ways, it might be a form of cognitive dissonance. About 10 years ago a famous Dutch type of candy known by the name of "Negerzoenen" translatable as "Negrokisses" or even the more derogatory N-word (both those words are etymologically related in the end), got it's name changed and there was an uproar by a lot of people that didn't understand that either. So it left a sentiment wherein a lot of Dutch people bring up silly comparisons like "So, can't I say white bread anymore either?" and stuff like that. So WriterGK's logic needs to be understood in line with sentiments like those. Dutch people actually bring up nonarguments like that all the time in the Zwarte Piet debate.

Yeah, I understood why he made the comment but I wondered if he and others actually believed there was something more to it. I'm sure one could go that route if they don't investigate it themselves, just assuming Black Friday was America's Zwarte Piet. That said, it's the most ridiculous deflection I've read in this thread.

 

[Raven Prime]

Neger doesn't translate to that, "the N-word" translates to nikker. But it was good to change it seeing how people still haven't made up their minds whether or not neger is offensive.

Like I pointed out both words are etymologically related, I oppose the uses of both terms although neger and negro are much more neutral than the N-word(s).

Niger is Latin for black, Negro is just the Spanish (and other Romance languages) form of the same word.
I also object to the terms Black and White, since people aren't actually those colors, they can be very dark or very pale however. Anyway that's all besides the point.

What is relevant though that people in the Netherlands are waking up to the fact that the word 'neger' is offensive.

 

[Lime]

uhhhh.... I don't think that this true at all. Neither Europe nor the US are very good at being not racist.

The US is much better equipped at simply addressing these matters. They have an actual vocubalury to address oppressive structures, passive racism, ingrained racist beliefs, the important difference between when a majority power holder (White) says something in contrast to when an oppressed/marginalized minority (Black) does, and so on.

In Europe, the national discourses revolve around Muslims being Brown-colored, "Negro" not being an offensive word because it's always been in our language, saying that a racial slur is offensive and hurtful is equivalent to censorship, and simply doing the act of *talking* about racism in European countries is called racism in itself. In Europe, it is perfectly fine to have a White Dude on a TV show to talk about whether or not a racially problematic topic is acceptable or not. That's the quality of the discourse at the moment.

Sweden is much better at these things. Other places (Denmark, France, Germany, Poland, Netherlands, Switzerland, etc.) are pretty bad at it. They don't even have the vocabulary to put words on what is going on.

 

[Martian]

I think it's because they genuinely believe that there is nothing wrong with it. I did. Then I saw protest against it last year for the first time. It changed my mind. With more protest and a little more time more and more people will realise that something should change.

Yeah, i feel like this is the the way most dutch think.

Until the whole zwarte pieten discussion came back, I never thought of it that way like most people. We never were taught blackface in school and we definitively never associated black piet with a race. Thats probably why this feels alien to people from the US. We, and please correct me if i am wrong, never had massive racism in our country and never had a real revolution. It just kind of went away (with the exception of a few traditions)


Also that whole negerzoenen fiasco also being discussed. Neger does not translate to the n-word. Its a term that is used like black person (which also getsmore controversial to use).

Latin for black (niger) -> neger.

The country Nigeria is not perceived as racist either, I believe.

(Whether a type of candy should be called negerzoenen is another question.

 

[GingerNathan]

The only things kids really care about at Christmas is presents and stuffing their faces full if sweets and chocolate. They won't give a crap when it's changed, and it's got to be eventually.

I think the biggest hurdle in getting this tradition changed is by changing it it's an admission that the celebration is racist, and the participants are being racist. That's a lot of people on defence mode :/

 

[Mononoke]

"Zwarte Piet controversy leads to 90 bans in Neogaf"

Why is it so hard for people to listen to those that are being discriminated? That is something that always bugged me about issues like sexism. Like people are telling you something is hurtful and you won't even hear them out?

Don't get why its that hard to at least do that. To at least try to listen to those that are explaining why it's hurtful.

 

[Raven Prime]

Yeah, I understood why he made the comment but I wondered if he and others actually believed there was something more to it. I'm sure one could go that route if they don't investigate it themselves, just assuming Black Friday was America's Zwarte Piet. That said, it's the most ridiculous deflection I've read in this thread.

Yeah, but that's why I brought it up. Because a lot of Zwarte Piet apologists actually deflect like that all the time, like I tried to explain. I really doubt he really believed Black Friday was the same thing as Black Pete, he was just grasping for straws.

 

[daxy]

I liked the idea of removing the lipstick and just having a black smudges on the face as the character's backstory would suggest it would look.

There's so much Europe could learn from the US when it comes to racial discourse. It's mindblowing how terribly racist many European countries can be without even realizing how offensive and harmful their behavior, culture, and structures are when it comes to people with a different skin color.

Yes, we should all learn to deny racism is a problem in law enforcement and the judiciary in general, as well as disproportionately incarcerate minorities. Please, teach us your enlightened ways.

 

[FartOfWar]

Wow, never imagined some Dutch and Belgians sounded so alike Alabama politicians (i.e. sworn protector's of "cherished tradition").

 

[lord quas]

I believe that the people who say they shouldn't protest in front the children who are cheering on Sinterklaas and Zwarte Piet are ignoring the problematic nature of exposing children to racist caricatures. If you have to choose between taking your kid to a peaceful protest or a racist parade, which one would you pick as a responsible parent?

There's no doubt that this is the root of the problem - Dutchmen who think that Zwarte Piet is not racist just because they were not exposed to the sensitive nature of blackface.

The only problem I have with protesting in front of kids, is is that the they don't have a clue what is going on... most of them have no concept of 'racial caricatures' and a protest is sure as hell not going to help fix that. I'm all for educating kids on how wrong racial caricatures are, but using an 'adult way of informing' like protesting will not contribute in any way.

 

[Dascu]

Why is it so hard for people to listen to those that are being discriminated? That is something that always bugged me out issues of sexism. Like people are telling you something is hurtful and you won't even hear them out?

Don't get why its that hard to at least do that.

Because Sinterklaas and Zwarte Piet are well-liked. It's the most pleasant time of the year, as a kid, and people only have fond memories and impressions of it. I personally see the racist origin in Zwarte Piet's depiction, but at the same time, it's challenging to think of this character as something hurtful.

Anyway, that's just to explain why most people here (Belgium) don't understand the controversy very well.

I support initiatives to drop the afro/red lips, as to fit the soot story, and maybe have non-black Pieten as well. It's not the foundation of what makes Sinterklaas such a fun holiday, so changes like that would only broaden its appeal.

 

[Malyse]

Interesting, answer me this: why would you think I'm not?

Because

I'm personally indifferent to all of the outrage/opposition regarding this tradition, and I think (assumption from observation) most people from Holland are the same.
I feel the strongest opposition comes from south western Netherlands, which is also where the lowest concentration of "non-whites" live.

I feel this tradition will be very hard to change simply because of there being so many people that simply do not care, compared to those that protest/oppose.

And black peoples usually aren't so ignorant to not understand the inherent racism of blackface. But way to not answer. I know all I want to about you.

 

[Lime]

ITT: "I don't actually understand how racism works, but here's my opinion on why this isn't racist"

Yeah, this pretty much encapsulates most if not all discussions on race in the European national discourses I've been witness to.

Yes, we should all learn to deny racism is a problem in law enforcement and disproportionately incarcerate minorities.

Read my post above. It's about the act of simply talking about race that Europe fundamentally lacks. Of course, it's different from country to country and culture to culture, but there are similar trends across how various countries address issues of power relations between White people and non-White people, especially ones with brown or dark skin. The US is much, much better at talking about race than Europe.

 

[Raven Prime]

Yeah, i feel like this is the the way most dutch think.

Until the whole zwarte pieten discussion came back, I never thought of it that way like most people. We never were taught blackface in school and we definitively never associated black piet with a race. Thats probably why this feels alien to people from the US. We, and please correct me if i am wrong, never had massive racism in our country and never had a real revolution. It just kind of went away (with the exception of a few traditions)


Also that whole negerzoenen fiasco also being discussed. Neger does not translate to the n-word. Its a term that is used like black person (which also getsmore controversial to use).

Latin for black (niger) -> neger.

The country Nigeria is not perceived as racist either, I believe.

(Whether a type of candy should be called negerzoenen is another question.

What? You think racism went away in the Netherlands? I'm not sure what you are trying to say. You probably missed the recent episode with the Dutch soccer team too, right?
And what about colonialism and slavery itself? You don't consider anything about that massively racist? What about children's songs about Zwarte Piet with lyrics like "Even if I'm black as soot, I still intend good.", yeah there is nothing inherently racist about those implications right?

Also about the relationship between neger and the n-word, I already elaborated on that a few posts above yours. But you could google it if you are really interested.

 

[Malyse]

Yeah, this pretty much encapsulates most if not all discussions on race in the European national discourses I've been witness to.



Read my post above. It's about the act of simply talking about race that Europe fundamentally lacks. Of course, it's different from country to country and culture to culture, but there are similar trends across how various countries address issues of power relations between White people and non-White people, especially ones with brown or dark skin. The US is much, much better at talking about race than Europe.

This is why I like you.

 

[RJT]

Like I pointed out both words are etymologically related, I oppose the uses of both terms although neger and negro are much more neutral than the N-word(s).

Niger is Latin for black, Negro is just the Spanish (and other Romance languages) form of the same word.
I also object to the terms Black and White, since people aren't actually those colors, they can be very dark or very pale however. Anyway that's all besides the point.

"Negro" in romance languages isn't even comparable to "nigger". You know how we say "black hole" in Portuguese? "Buraco Negro". Do you know how we say "black market"? "Mercado negro". Do you know how we say "black friday"? "Sexta-feira negra". The list goes on. The proper translation for "negro" is "black". Period.

(I have no idea if that is the case in Dutch, I'm just clearing a common misconception regarding latin languages)


BTW, add me to the "Europeans have a lot to learn from American regarding racism" camp.

 

[Mononoke]

Because Sinterklaas and Zwarte Piet are well-liked. It's the most pleasant time of the year, as a kid, and people only have fond memories and impressions of it. I personally see the racist origin in Zwarte Piet's depiction, but at the same time, it's challenging to think of this character as something hurtful.

I can understand that. But I just think, you should at least hear people out that are being hurt by it. And try to understand where they are coming from. I don't get why they can't preserve the holiday but just make changes so everyone can be included and no one feels hurt.

 

[Raven Prime]

There's no doubt that this is the root of the problem - Dutchmen who think that Zwarte Piet is not racist just because they were not exposed to the sensitive nature of blackface.

The only problem I have with protesting in front of kids, is is that the they don't have a clue what is going on... most of them have no concept of 'racial caricatures' and a protest is sure as hell not going to help fix that. I'm all for educating kids on how wrong racial caricatures are, but using an 'adult way of informing' like protesting will not contribute in any way.

Those protests aren't aimed at children. But my point is that those children might not understand it now, but these caricatures are still imprinting themselves in their subconscious. The sooner we remove these racist elements of the parade, the better.

 

[Malyse]

I can understand that. But I just think, you should at least hear people out that are being hurt by it. And try to understand where they are coming from. I don't get why they can't preserve the holiday but just make changes so everyone can be included and no one feels hurt.

And this is why I like you.

 

[Pennywise]

The US is much better equipped at simply addressing these matters. They have an actual vocubalury to address oppressive structures, passive racism, ingrained racist beliefs, the important difference between when a majority power holder (White) says something in contrast to when an oppressed/marginalized minority (Black) does, and so on.

In Europe, the national discourses revolve around Muslims being Brown-colored, "Negro" not being an offensive word because it's always been in our language, saying that a racial slur is offensive and hurtful is equivalent to censorship, and simply doing the act of *talking* about racism in European countries is called racism in itself. In Europe, it is perfectly fine to have a White Dude on a TV show to talk about whether or not a racially problematic topic is acceptable or not. That's the quality of the discourse at the moment.

Sweden is much better at these things. Other places (Denmark, France, Germany, Poland, Netherlands, Switzerland, etc.) are pretty bad at it. They don't even have the vocabulary to put words on what is going on.

I must have missed something, but would you care to elaborate which terms are actually missing within the German vocubalury ?

(Whether a type of candy should be called negerzoenen is another question.

Luckily, names are being changed.
Allthough, there are still alot of those brands out there.
The biggest german brand has changed over the last years.

Indeed, it is severely disappointing.

So much so that it is actually depressing me pretty fucking hard.

Maybe you should avoid these topics than.
Topics that make you angry on several occassions which come up at least twice a year and won't change in the next 2-3 years, will not make you feel better.
I would be constantly furious, if I visited specific topics everytime they pop up :/

 

[boiled goose]

I can understand that. But I just think, you should at least hear people out that are being hurt by it. And try to understand where they are coming from. I don't get why they can't preserve the holiday but just make changes so everyone can be included and no one feels hurt.

Exactly! Let's strivs to be a better and more inclusive society

 

[Deleted member 13876]

I can understand that. But I just think, you should at least hear people out that are being hurt by it. And try to understand where they are coming from. I don't get why they can't preserve the holiday but just make changes so everyone can be included and no one feels hurt.

I absolutely agree with this. The reason why it's hard is that people see it as an attack on their culture, traditions and values. A lot of people are sensitive to that kind of rhetoric. It's comparable to the bullshit "War on Christmas" the American right likes to flare up.

 

[Raven Prime]

"Negro" in romance languages isn't even comparable to "nigger". You know how we say "black hole" in Portuguese? "Buraco Negro". Do you know how we say "black market"? "Mercado negro". Do you know how we say "black friday"? "Sexta-feira negra". The list goes on. The proper translation for "negro" is "black". Period.

(I have no idea if that is the case in Dutch, I'm just clearing a common misconception regarding latin languages)


BTW, add me to the "Europeans have a lot to learn from American regarding racism" camp.

No no no, you understood me wrong. The etymological root is from these languages. In the English language they use the term Negro to point out someone with a dark skincolor or more precisely someone of Sub Saharan African decent.
The same is true for the Dutch word Neger. Both these words are related to the Latin Niger and the Spanish, Portuguese and Italian Negro. The same etymological root exist for the N-word. That's my point.

 

[Crocodile]

I'm really hoping this juxtaposition of actual black people, white people covered in soot and these "Black Petes" will help people better understand why this "tradition" sets so many people off. Just look at that foolishness :/ There's no justification for this in 2014 and the Dutch can celebrate the holiday in many ways that aren't racist.

 

[Kinyou]

The US is much better equipped at simply addressing these matters. They have an actual vocubalury to address oppressive structures, passive racism, ingrained racist beliefs, the important difference between when a majority power holder (White) says something in contrast to when an oppressed/marginalized minority (Black) does, and so on.
Sweden is much better at these things. Other places (Denmark, France, Germany, Poland, Netherlands, Switzerland, etc.) are pretty bad at it. They don't even have the vocabulary to put words on what is going on.

Ehm, what are you basing this on? Those words aren't neologisms, they're easily translatable. And a quick google search for "Passiver Rassismus" (German for passive racism) reveals that it's very much used in discussions. The same goes for France or Poland.

 

[Prophet Steve]

I can understand that. But I just think, you should at least hear people out that are being hurt by it. And try to understand where they are coming from. I don't get why they can't preserve the holiday but just make changes so everyone can be included and no one feels hurt.

Because we also have vocal people that oppose change and because many people aren't bothered by it and so they don't actively try to change it. This way the situation doesn't change fast.

 

[Joni]

"Fuck those small kids that want to have a good time, it is the ideal venue to use violence to show your aversity of the racial tendency of zwarte piet."
-> how does any sane being come to that conclusion?

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

Because



And black peoples usually aren't so ignorant to not understand the inherent racism of blackface. But way to not answer. I know all I want to about you.

You know nothing about me, you made a stupid assumption.
I didn't answer because I was intrigued by your implication. An implication you've confirmed with your post (you can't be black, because a black person must be offended).
I, and many others, don't care, simply because we don't care. If the gov wants to change it then go ahead, if they don't want to it's whatever.

Assuming things is bad mkay?

Spoiler

I'm black

 

[Daria Morgendorffer]

I can understand that. But I just think, you should at least hear people out that are being hurt by it. And try to understand where they are coming from. I don't get why they can't preserve the holiday but just make changes so everyone can be included and no one feels hurt.

Fortunately they really started with changing Zwarte Piet this year but people really need to accept the whole tradition can't be fully changed in a couple of years. Sadly we'll have this thread in the coming years even though changes are being made.

 

[Valhelm]

I think that it should be recognized that some cultural practices are harmful, and are not compatible with a modern world. Zwarte Piet is one of them. While he's not as serious a concern as FGM or ritual infanticide, he's an offensive character with a pretty ugly history.

 

[Earthpainting]

I think going by how the Sinterklaas mythology has evolved in the last 100 years, it's undeniable that Dutch and Belgian people back then knew something was iffy and had to change. They made some alterations to try and fix it, and it made a few generations grow up with this revised lore. These people in turn grew up to be culturally blind to the issue, and don't see Piet as a black person, but as a Smurf-like fantasy character. The racist imagery pretty much remained the same however, so you can't blame outsiders looking in to not buy into the naive retcons.

I think the only way to address this properly is to change it even more. The design itself just has to be phased out, as it is the main point of contention. It'd be in everyone's interest to do this, because the current story talks about white people being covered by soot, which is not reflected on their clothes, nor does not explain the lips and hair. Changing it would a win for everyone. So let's get constructive here, and compile some Zwarte Piet 1.0.3 patch notes.