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'Zwarte Piet' Controversy Leads To 90 Arrests In Netherlands

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Coolwhip

Banned
Meanwhile in Curacao:

ANP-1000_25469535.jpg


There are around 100 people putting the 'racism' stamp on our annual children's party that has been present for dozens of years, but in Curacao people are actually putting up more black make-up and are partying like crazy because they know how to differentiate the fantasy of a child to that of an adult. I, as a kid back in the 90's, enjoyed the whole atmosphere that surrounded Sinterklaas and Zwarte Pieten and not once did I discriminate other black people during that period, nor do I do that now.

So saying that 'Zwarte Piet' is racist does not sit well with me. They are fantasy based persons who bring joy and laughter into children's hearts, not racism. Children do not even know what racism is. That part gets created in their minds by society as a whole when they are old enough to comprehend what is actually going on in the world, and that happens far beyond the point when their parents say that 'Sinterklaas' does not exist.

Yeah it's funny, for ages this tradition was without any protest. But with the internet everyone has his/her opinion ready in a few seconds. Afterwards the keyboard warriors move on to judge the next issue.
 

Thorakai

Member
Pro-tip: Try not look at the word "racist" and automatically assume your character is being attacked and you are being given a permanent black mark. I think way too may people treat that word as character assassination and jump through hoops to avoid being associated with it. Its why these threads always go through great lengths to differentiate racism, prejudice, ignorance, racial insensitivity, etc.
 

Alucrid

Banned
Meanwhile in Curacao:

http://thepostonline.nl/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/ANP-1000_25469535.jpg[img]

There are around 100 people putting the 'racism' stamp on our annual children's party that has been present for dozens of years, but in Curacao people are actually putting up more black make-up and are partying like crazy because they know how to differentiate the fantasy of a child to that of an adult. I, as a kid back in the 90's, enjoyed the whole atmosphere that surrounded Sinterklaas and Zwarte Pieten and not once did I discriminate other black people during that period, nor do I do that now.

So saying that 'Zwarte Piet' is racist does not sit well with me. They are fantasy based persons who bring joy and laughter into children's hearts, not racism. Children do not even know what racism is. That part gets created in their minds by society as a whole when they are old enough to comprehend what is actually going on in the world, and that happens far beyond the point when their parents say that 'Sinterklaas' does not exist.[/QUOTE]

Heaven forbid we alter those fantasy based persons, if we do that they surely cannot bring joy and laughter into children's hearts.
 

Gustav

Banned
Do you believe children who grow up using the words "Retard" and "Gay" as slurs are really homophobic or have a deep seated hatred for the mentally challenged?

Do you think you still think using those terms as epithets is acceptable?

Exactly. You are proving my point. I would never call these children bigots or homophobes. And in the same vein, I would not call people in Zwarte Piet outfits racists.
 
I'm ashamed of my country.

The Netherlands doesn't deserve being seen as progressive and as a front runner of human rights.

I was being called Black peter as well as a kid. Shit isn't cool.

Funny thing is Article 1 of the Dutch Constitution:

CHAPTER 1 Fundamental rights

Article 1

All persons in the Netherlands shall be treated equally in equal
circumstances. Discrimination on the grounds of religion, belief, political
opinion, race or sex or on any other grounds whatsoever shall not be
permitted.
 

AkuMifune

Banned
Yeah it's funny, for ages this tradition was without any protest. But with the internet everyone has his/her opinion ready in a few seconds. Afterwards the keyboard warriors move on to judge the next issue.

Like all the keyboard warriors who are actually protesting this issue who are affected by it on a personal level who are trying to change it right now?

Exactly. You are proving my point. I would never call these children bigots or homophobes. And in the same vein, I would not call people in Zwarte Piet outfits racists.

I said I didn't think the kids were racist because they don't know better yet. If you're an adult and supporting this "tradition" you have no excuse.
 

geomon

Member
I'm ashamed of my country.

The Netherlands doesn't deserve being seen as progressive and as a front runner of human rights.

I was being called Black peter as well as a kid. Shit isn't cool.

Funny thing is Article 1 of the Dutch Constitution:

CHAPTER 1 Fundamental rights

Article 1

All persons in the Netherlands shall be treated equally in equal
circumstances. Discrimination on the grounds of religion, belief, political
opinion, race or sex or on any other grounds whatsoever shall not be
permitted.

Didn't you feel the happiness in your heart?
 
I'm ashamed of my country.

The Netherlands doesn't deserve being seen as progressive and as a front runner of human rights.

I was being called Black peter as well as a kid. Shit isn't cool.

Funny thing is Article 1 of the Dutch Constitution:

CHAPTER 1 Fundamental rights

Article 1

All persons in the Netherlands shall be treated equally in equal
circumstances. Discrimination on the grounds of religion, belief, political
opinion, race or sex or on any other grounds whatsoever shall not be
permitted.

So uhm, who is being treated unequally in this case?
 
So why keep Zwarte Piet?

Are you ready to give up Thanksgiving? Since there's a ton to be offended with that if you read into its history enough.

Are you ready to give up Santa? I heard a few short people were offended by the elves.

I think a proper compromise would be to ditch the wigs, and to use makeup that mimics soot-marks.. but that's not going to happen anytime soon.
 

Enron

Banned
I mean, if it's really just about a chimney sweep dirtied up with some soot, just ditch the lipstick and afro and have people wear soot makeup. Unless it isn't.

It isn't, of course. I don't know why people keep repeating the soot thing - that was something added to soften up the image of Zwarte Piet.

My mom grew up with this tradition in Indonesia since her family were Dutch Catholics. Heck, there exists in her home in boxes full of xmas decorations she kept from her mother zwarte piet figures. She grew up with a Zwarte Piet that was BLACK, as in a Moor from Spain. Not some soot-covered thing.
 

BeesEight

Member
Why not? Not keeping it would be racist against all the other races. Can't have that.

Question: If racism is considered universally bad, the society strives for equality and fair treatment, looks upon its minority members with respect then why perpetuate a racist caricature?

Unless you're going to suggest that there are a rainbow people and Rainbow Piet is a racial caricature of them.

Are you ready to give up Thanksgiving? Since there's a ton to be offended with that if you read into its history enough.

Are you ready to give up Santa? I heard a few short people were offended by the elves.

Yes, I would give up the racially offensive components of my Thanksgiving celebration if we had any. Yes, I would happily agree to a different portrayal of Santa Clause if it was racially insensitive.
 

Malyse

Member
Yeah it's funny, for ages this tradition was without any protest. But with the internet everyone has his/her opinion ready in a few seconds. Afterwards the keyboard warriors move on to judge the next issue.

Like all the keyboard warriors who are actually protesting this issue who are affected by it on a personal level who are trying to change it right now.

Yes, God forbid we try to effect change for our compatriots in other nations.
 

Ortix

Banned
Question: If racism is considered universally bad, the society strives for equality and fair treatment, looks upon its minority members with respect then why perpetuate a racist caricature?

Unless you're going to suggest that there are a rainbow people and Rainbow Piet is a racial caricature of them.



Yes, I would give up the racially offensive components of my Thanksgiving celebration if we had any. Yes, I would happily agree to a different portrayal of Santa Clause if it was racially insensitive.

I was suggesting there were white and "yellow" people, but forget it...

Ok folks, I'm bailing out.
 
Heaven forbid we alter those fantasy based persons, if we do that they surely cannot bring joy and laughter into children's hearts.


If you create yellow pete's the asian will be offended. Oh, wait.. That did not happen.

If they are going to create white pete's I am going to be offended. Oh, wait. No.. I can actually differentiate myself from adult life and children's fantasies.

I can assure you the majority of the black society here in Holland absolutely love the ancient old tradition here. It is the vocal minority that disagrees with it because they actually have the time to feel offended by a party that is undeniably created for children's.

It is not like we are burning crosses in front of our houses with white cloaks on.
 

EloquentM

aka Mannny
Yeah it's funny, for ages this tradition was without any protest. But with the internet everyone has his/her opinion ready in a few seconds. Afterwards the keyboard warriors move on to judge the next issue.
Such a bullshit argument. So because the protest is recent and brought along by the advent of the Internet its invalidated.
 

Gustav

Banned
Like all the keyboard warriors who are actually protesting this issue who are affected by it on a personal level who are trying to change it right now?



I said I didn't think the kids were racist because they don't know better yet. If you're an adult and supporting this "tradition" you have no excuse.

You're still not necessarily a racist.
 
Question: If racism is considered universally bad, the society strives for equality and fair treatment, looks upon its minority members with respect then why perpetuate a racist caricature?

Unless you're going to suggest that there are a rainbow people and Rainbow Piet is a racial caricature of them.



Yes, I would give up the racially offensive components of my Thanksgiving celebration if we had any. Yes, I would happily agree to a different portrayal of Santa Clause if it was racially insensitive.

Give up ALL of Thanksgiving. Or do you want to be seen celebrating the slaughtering of native americans?
 
So why keep Zwarte Piet?

The other types of Pieten aren't popular at all.

From what I get this is the case as it is in The Netherlands:

You got people against zwarte pieten, which I don't think in The Netherlands is a huge group, but outside of The Netherlands close to everyone thinks that way.

A large group that doesn't feel strongly one way or another, and if that is the case, you don't do too much effort to try and change it.

And then you actually have a group that is opposed to changing it and protests for that.

You don't easily change the tradition that way.
 

Alucrid

Banned
If you create yellow pete's the asian will be offended. Oh, wait.. That did not happen.

If they are going to create white pete's I am going to be offended. Oh, wait. No.. I can actually differentiate myself from adult life and children's fantasies.

I can assure you the majority of the black society here in Holland absolutely love the ancient old tradition here. It is the vocal minority that disagrees with it because they actually have the time to feel offended by a party that is undeniably created for children's.

It is not like we are burning crosses in front of our houses with white cloaks on.

or you can have the no make up pete, but why be sensible
 

BeesEight

Member
I was suggesting there were white and "yellow" people, but forget it...

Ok folks, I'm bailing out.

Then you would be missing the point. If not mine, then WriterGK's. WriterGK was mentioning how, because it is a harmless tradition directed at children, they have introduced many other Pieten who are not racially caricatures. Thus, why simply add a bunch of other characters that aren't racial caricatures and keep the one that is? Why not replace the racial caricature with the harmless characters?

Give up ALL of Thanksgiving. Or do you want to be seen celebrating the slaughtering of native americans?

Why does the tradition have to be "racial insensitivity or not at all?"

Children can have fun with a character that isn't racially insensitive. That is the whole argument, is it not? You can still have a Piet doing all the same antics without being a racist stereotype. The only thing that's changed is removing an insensitive portrayal.

Also, I'm not an American so my Thanksgiving celebration is already different from theirs.
 

JDSN

Banned
I'm ashamed of my country.

The Netherlands doesn't deserve being seen as progressive and as a front runner of human rights.

I was being called Black peter as well as a kid. Shit isn't cool.

Funny thing is Article 1 of the Dutch Constitution:

CHAPTER 1 Fundamental rights

Article 1

All persons in the Netherlands shall be treated equally in equal
circumstances. Discrimination on the grounds of religion, belief, political
opinion, race or sex or on any other grounds whatsoever shall not be
permitted.

Careful, somebody here might imply that your younger self was a "keyboard warrior" or mildly point out that while you experienced racism is totally not related to the festivity that normalizes racism and what really is important is that their feelings are hurt because they are being forced into learning problematic aspects about their holidays.

When you think about it, you might be the actual racist!! #Notyourminstrel.
 
Some discussion from Tim Wise on these meta-questions:

1. How do you define racism?

As with other “isms” (like capitalism, communism, etc.), racism is both an ideology and a system. As such, I define it in two ways.

As an ideology, racism is the belief that population groups, defined as distinct “races,” generally possess traits, characteristics or abilities, which distinguish them as either superior or inferior to other groups in certain ways. In short, racism is the belief that a particular race is (or certain races are) superior or inferior to another race or races.

As a system, racism is an institutional arrangement, maintained by policies, practices and procedures — both formal and informal — in which some persons typically have more or less opportunity than others, and in which such persons receive better or worse treatment than others, because of their respective racial identities. Additionally, institutional racism involves denying persons opportunities, rewards, or various benefits on the basis of race, to which those individuals are otherwise entitled. In short, racism is a system of inequality, based on race.

2. How is racism different from white supremacy?

White supremacy is the operationalized form of racism in the United States and throughout the Western world. Racism is like the generic product name, while white supremacy is the leading brand, with far and away the greatest market share.

3. Do you think all whites are racist?

I believe that all people (white or of color) raised in a society where racism has been (and still is) so prevalent, will have internalized various elements of racist thinking: certain beliefs, stereotypes, assumptions, and judgments about others and themselves. So in countries where beliefs in European/white superiority and domination have been historically embedded, it is likely that everyone in such places will have ingested some of that conditioning. I think all whites — as the dominant group in the U.S. — have been conditioned to accept white predominance in the social, political and economic system, and to believe that white predominance is a preferable arrangement for the society in which they live, the neighborhoods in which they live, the places where they work, etc.

However, this doesn’t mean that all whites, having been conditioned in that way, are committed to the maintenance of white supremacy. One can challenge one’s conditioning. One can be counter-conditioned and taught to believe in equality, and to commit oneself to its achievement. These things take work — and they can never completely eradicate all of the conditioning to which one has been subjected — but they are possible.

In other words, we can be racist by conditioning, antiracist by choice. That racism is part of who we are does not mean that it’s all of who we are, or that it must be the controlling or dominant part of who we are. By the same token, just because we choose to be antiracist, does not mean that we no longer carry around some of the racism with which we were raised, or to which we were and are exposed.
 
or you can have the no make up pete, but why be sensible

Like the neutral caucasian one's? But then I am going to be offended and we would not want that.

No, wait.. Like I said. I would never feel offended because it is a children's party.

So whether they are yellow, purple, brown or black it makes absolutely no sense to change it because certain people will always feel offended by certain things. That is society for you.
 

Alucrid

Banned
In any other discussion this would have been laughed at because of: anecdotal evidence lol. Show me a video please.

oh sorry, right i forgot that because you have black people attending the festivities every thing is a-ok

Like the neutral caucasian one's? But then I am going to be offended and we would not want that.

No, wait.. Like I said. I would never feel offended because it is a children's party.

So whether they are yellow, purple, brown or black it makes absolutely no sense to change it because certain people will always feel offended by certain things. That is society for you.

stop being dense. no one is going to be offended that everyone dressing as "---" pete is white because they're all actually white, the only people who will be upset are those clinging onto their "traditions"
 

Snow

Member
Yeah it's funny, for ages this tradition was without any protest. But with the internet everyone has his/her opinion ready in a few seconds. Afterwards the keyboard warriors move on to judge the next issue.
On the other hand, I remember my mother telling me stories about how Surinam used to have Sinterklaas, but that when they gained independence from the Dutch they replaced it with a more generic children's holiday, because the imagery of a white man with black helpers was felt to be racist and colonial. Actually looking this up now it may have been a policy from the military dictator who took over after independence, so it might have been tied up with all sorts of weird nationalist politics at the time. But it's not like nobody has made the connection before the internet.

Also, I'm kind of of mystified by the Dutchies saying that kids don't notice the racial component (the fact that zwarte piet looks quite a bit like people with actual black skin) and that they don't make that connection. Again, maybe I was just being overly sensitive as a non-white kid growing up in a mostly white suburban neighbourhood, but growing up 20-30 years ago I remember kids making that connection pretty early on. And then applying it to actual black people. Not maliciously, but still.
 

jimi_dini

Member
It's called Black Friday because of accounting. When you're gaining profit, you're in the black, and numbers are written in black. When you're losing money, you're in the red, and numbers are written in red.

Who chose those colors in the first place?

Why is gaining profit written in black? Black as in black slaves working?
 
Thanksgiving is not and was never about the slaughter of Native Americans.

But some people do feel it is, and are thusly offended. So in direct response, Sinterklaas is not about the enslavement of black people.

Do you see why I tried to draw a parallel?

Again, I do not think this tradition should not be altered. It almost has to, and it would be sad to see it go as it brings a lot of kids joy.
 

AkuMifune

Banned
Thanksgiving is not and was never about the slaughter of Native Americans.

I remember as a kid in elementary school we would have some kids dress up like pilgrims and some as native americans to re-enact the first Thanksgiving. If you told me that was racist and we should stop because it offends you I wouldn't fight it. As long as we don't have to give up the turkey.

But no one painted their faces red, either.
 

boiled goose

good with gravy
If you create yellow pete's the asian will be offended. Oh, wait.. That did not happen.

If they are going to create white pete's I am going to be offended. Oh, wait. No.. I can actually differentiate myself from adult life and children's fantasies.

I can assure you the majority of the black society here in Holland absolutely love the ancient old tradition here. It is the vocal minority that disagrees with it because they actually have the time to feel offended by a party that is undeniably created for children's.

It is not like we are burning crosses in front of our houses with white cloaks on.

The yellow ones had a rice hat and squinty eyes?
 
Kids are immune to culture influence. Is that seriously the argument we're going to be trotting out? At least it implicitly acknowledges the practice is problematic, so that's a step.
 
i'm from Belgium and luckily here this isn't as big an item as with our neighbors (and hopefully it stays that way)

of all the important things in the world, this surely has to be on top of that list!
 

Sai-kun

Banned
Who chose those colors in the first place?

Why is gaining profit written in black? Black as in black slaves working?

I think it was because people used black ink to make note of positive gains, and red ink to denote losses.

What a post tho lmao keep it up
 

Kinsei

Banned
But some people do feel it is, and are thusly offended. So in direct response, Sinterklaas is not about the enslavement of black people.

Do you see why I tried to draw a parallel?

Again, I do not think this tradition should not be altered. It almost has to, and it would be sad to see it go as it brings a lot of kids joy.

I can assure you that it would still bring kids a lot of joy if you got rid of the lipstick and afros and replaced the paint with stuff that actually looked like patches of soot.
 

WriterGK

Member
Fun fact. You say ''black '' is making profit as a organization. I am not sure how it goes in other countries but we have people who work ''black'''and it means the company they work for and the employees get paid in cash and dont pay any taxes on that salary....
 

Quixzlizx

Member
Like the neutral caucasian one's? But then I am going to be offended and we would not want that.

No, wait.. Like I said. I would never feel offended because it is a children's party.

So whether they are yellow, purple, brown or black it makes absolutely no sense to change it because certain people will always feel offended by certain things. That is society for you.

So, the racial caricature is fine because easily-impressionable children are the target audience.

Wait, what?
 

Alucrid

Banned
But some people do feel it is, and are thusly offended. So in direct response, Sinterklaas is not about the enslavement of black people.

Do you see why I tried to draw a parallel?

Again, I do not think this tradition should not be altered. It almost has to, and it would be sad to see it go as it brings a lot of kids joy.

i wonder if you got banned last time for making ludicrous arguments
 

Sai-kun

Banned
Fun fact. You say ''black '' is making profit as a organization. I am not sure how it goes in other countries but we have people who work ''black'''and it means the company they work for and the employees get paid in cash and dont pay any taxes on that salary....

Hmmmmm, interesting...
 
Fun fact. You say ''black '' is making profit as a organization. I am not sure how it goes in other countries but we have people who work ''black'''and it means the company they work for and the employees get paid in cash and dont pay any taxes on that salary....
Isnt it the same here. At least the 'red numbers'.

But seems kind of unrelated to the whole discussion...
 
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