the same way that thanksgiving and black friday are
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'Zwarte Piet' Controversy Leads To 90 Arrests In Netherlands
- Thread starter maquiladora
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the same way that thanksgiving and black friday are
Ingueferroque
Banned
I definitely agree with that, as I said a few times in this thread.
I got banned because I said that growing up in Belgium, this never seemed like a racist tradition to me as a kid.
Well someone explained to me that its called Black Friday because companees make money out of there sales and advertisement...
Prophet Steve
Member
I feel this is where the problem is. Now, we have had a tradition for decades that really doesn't effect me as a white person in The Netherlands. One that I have enjoyed as I child.
I am not going to fight a change, but I am not going to fight for a change either and there are many people that think like that. Since there are also people that actually oppose changing this tradition, it can take some time before we do something about zwarte pieten.
Nobody said it was. The problem people have with it is the depiction of Zwarte Piet. It IS a racist depiction. I'm sorry, it just is.
Raven Prime
Member
Most people in the Netherlands and Belgium don't know anything or extremely little about the origins of Zwarte Piet.
Yeah like in Gouda where you had like 10 alternative Petes and 290 original colonial caricature Petes.
Yeah sure - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvHXrfYiRGk
Meanwhile in Curacao:
There are around 100 people putting the 'racism' stamp on our annual children's party that has been present for dozens of years, but in Curacao people are actually putting up more black make-up and are partying like crazy because they know how to differentiate the fantasy of a child to that of an adult. I, as a kid back in the 90's, enjoyed the whole atmosphere that surrounded Sinterklaas and Zwarte Pieten and not once did I discriminate other black people during that period, nor do I do that now.
So saying that 'Zwarte Piet' is racist does not sit well with me. They are fantasy based persons who bring joy and laughter into children's hearts, not racism. Children do not even know what racism is. That part gets created in their minds by society as a whole when they are old enough to comprehend what is actually going on in the world, and that happens far beyond the point when their parents say that 'Sinterklaas' does not exist.
Colonialism and racism run deep, ever heard about internalised racism? Most people in these countries think lighter skin is more desirable too. Besides the whole Zwarte Piet is Racism(e) movement is composed of individuals of different etnicities, this is not a black or white thing, literally. It's about awareness of the impact of colonialism and it's enduring effects in the present.
Because the caricature is inherently racist, most opponents of the current Zwarte Piet advocate Rainbow or Soot Petes. Something like this
There certainly used to be, and I'm pretty confident that in small vilages Zwarte Piet still talks like this until this day. It doesn't matter though, even without the fake accent it's still very problematic though. Zwarte Piet is keeping a colonial caricature alive of Sub-Saharan Africans.
The kids aren't aware of racism so they don't know the racist tradition is racist, they only see it for the fun of Christmas, you see. That makes it OK!
Nevermind that it presents to and instills in children a racist tradition and racist mindset when they're so young that they're not even aware of the racist aspect and thus unable to critically challenge what's presented to or being instilled in them.
LOGIC BREH.
Believe it or not, people have the ability to concentrate on different issues with differing importance at the same time!
That is the reason. There can be some guy in a shack in Antarctica who thinks that black is the color of snow; that doesn't mean the definition of Black Friday in the US has changed.
Wind's Howling
Member
You kind of invalidate your point considering the people in Curacao actually make themselves more black while they.. Hold your breath.. are black.. Shocker! - I know.
Now tell me why they do not feel discriminated like the vocal minority that are present here in Holland.
ClosingADoor
Member
Yeah, just read the post above. my bad.
But isn't it the same here with companies being in the red / black.
Still seems kind of unrelated to the whole Black Pete stuff.
Let's just get rid of it and let everyone have fun again. It's been toxic for long enough now and that isn't going to stop.
No clue why those colors were initially chosen. But I'm 100% certain you're reaching on the slaves thing being the reason.
Edit: Saw below. If joking, then I blame myself for being tired ;p
Ingueferroque
Banned
Pretty sure he was joking.
Yeah, that was bad reading comprehension on my part.
s74rshaped
Member
They don't need to get rid of the whole tradition. Just get rid of the huge red lips, big afro wig and use black face paint instead of brown. It isnt exactly rocket science.
Fallout-NL
Member
Every person of color who was ever called a 'zwarte piet' or takes offense with the stereotypical and racially insensitive zwarte piet character.
It's an open and shut case of institutionalized racism. That so many Dutch people claim that 'it's not meant to be racist' is totally irrelevant if (even if it's only a small minority) does experience it like that.
Furthermore, considering how it looks identical to the completely unacceptable and racist tradition of blackface, I think it's time to abolish the character of zwarte piet. Who in their right mind would want to present him or herself like that to the international community? It is fucking shameful is what it is.
Yes it should be non issue, yes the discussion is an incredible waste of time. But that is exactly why it is so disappointing. What hope do we have as a species if we can't even see something completely obvious like this for what it is, make the right decision and fucking move on?
No you are not, because you it is very likely you live in a society where 'white' is still being regarded as the gold standard. Racism remains a major issue and the fact that it's no longer visible through explicit segregation or assholes stringing people up, does not mean it's no longer there. So please consider that this 'children's fantasy' can have very real consequences - OR - that some people view it as one of the symptoms of a society that hasn't quite moved past issues of race.
Wind's Howling
Member
I am fine with different colored Pete's, do not get me wrong.
The vocal minority who are feeling offended by our tradition are not making themselves love-able in the process, though.
Not when you ignore the designated 'strike' places that have been put by the police, yet they go right to the area where all the kids are and say things like ''Sinterklaas does not exist!''
The vocal minority who are feeling offended by our tradition are not making themselves love-able in the process, though.
Not when you ignore the designated 'strike' places that have been put by the police, yet they go right to the area where all the kids are and say things like ''Sinterklaas does not exist!''
The difference is we tell those children to stop using that kind of language.
So when we tell people that the Zwarte Piet should be stopped, it's wrong?
Well the Dutch kept Apartheid going till 1994, they seem real good at keeping racism going.
It's amazing that people are finding it hard to believe that the Zwarte Piet image is built on the derogatory image of a black person used in the past. It doesn't even remotely represent someone who has been dirtied by soot, yet looks exactly like a Golliwog.
Just because something is considered tradition does not mean a person should throw all sensibility out of the window and not reconsider whether your tradition is based on something acceptable. The use of the age of the tradition to continue doing something wrong has to be one of the most short-sighted reasons when you consider the context that black people in prior years were not exactly regarded as equals.
It's amazing that people are finding it hard to believe that the Zwarte Piet image is built on the derogatory image of a black person used in the past. It doesn't even remotely represent someone who has been dirtied by soot, yet looks exactly like a Golliwog.
Just because something is considered tradition does not mean a person should throw all sensibility out of the window and not reconsider whether your tradition is based on something acceptable. The use of the age of the tradition to continue doing something wrong has to be one of the most short-sighted reasons when you consider the context that black people in prior years were not exactly regarded as equals.
FYI Sint Niclaas originated form the city of Myra in Turkey. He was known among other stuff for liberating black children from slave ships and actually paying them money to be servants of his. They lived on there own and independent. So they were never his slaves he actually liberated them from a life in enslavement....
boiled goose
good with gravy
Liberation of slaves sounds like an awesome thing to celebrate.
Which has what to do with the racist depiction of Zwarte Piet?
I agree, but 83% of dutch people don't want to make any changes to Zwarte Piet. A lot of people here are actually really emotional about it.
Raven Prime
Member
Wow, you are mixing up South Africans with the Dutch. It's true that there are many Dutch influences in South-Africa, but they aren't "the Dutch".
I think you are being sarcastic but yeah it its something worth celebrating. But if people take offence to it and see it a racism they can try and stop it, be my guest.
The weight of fucks I don't give about you finding me love-able would crush you to death.
Martin Luther King Jr. said:
You're now confusing The Netherlands with South Africa. Good job.
Sorry, I never got a chance to edit my post to clarify due to the temp lock. It was supposed to be an exemplar allusion to the out-of-context point I made later on in my post.
I am aware that those initial Dutch descent settlers are the not the exact same as the current Dutch people.
the point i was trying to make is that if you remove the facepaint, lip color, wig, and just have the clothes on no one is going to be upset that you are portraying the helper as the race you actually are. what is lost if you don't have those things? you can still enjoy it, kids can still enjoy it, the spirit of the holiday is still there. i doubt, and hope, that the entirety of sinterklaas doesn't hinge on black pete's appearance
Prophet Steve
Member
I can see it as racially insensitive and racist, but I don't see it as a violation of that part in the Dutch Constitution. Well yes, being called a Black peter is and that is illegal. But I don't see how that part of the constitution applies and you can't extrapolate that to the entire tradition of zwarte pieten.
Also, as much as I agree that The Netherlands should be looked at (anymore) as a front runner of progressiveness, I don't feel we are infringing on human rights here. We aren't taking away rights from black people with this which is why I think he shouldn't bring up the constitution.
Well, there wasn't apartheid in The Netherlands until 1990 as he seems to indicate. But we participated in slavery too, so yes.
I'm arguing that blackface is racist and I'm not sure how anyone could think otherwise.
Orbis Tabula
Member
My favorite defense for this is that, since the outrage is recent, it can be ignored. As if issues are only worth taking seriously if people have been making noise since time immemorial.
I'm pretty sure the kids won't care what kind of color Piet is (I know I wouldn't have), and it is pathetic to see adults saying that they won't change their traditions for 'foreigners' and that they should change their traditions instead. Well, guess what, most of these people are as Dutch as you are.
However, I don't think they should have protested where the kids were standing... that's pathetic in its own right
However, I don't think they should have protested where the kids were standing... that's pathetic in its own right
Do people actually think this is a racial thing?
Haha, yes we do. Google it from any country except Holland and see how the news is reporting it.
Also who are you arguing with? I guess tilting at Windmills is appropriate for this story.
Worked Black Fridays before, I've come to the conclusion that it represents the color of consumer's hearts when dealing with retail employees that day.
Well damn.
Angelus Errare
Banned
It's a desperate attempt at deflection.
theignoramus
Member
Goddamn, first page is a graveyard.
I've seen it first hand so I confirm and understand.
Reading through it stopped me dead in my tracks.
Daria Morgendorffer
Member
I have a few younger sisters and cousins so I follow some of their Sinterklaas media, this year they really seem to push that everyone can be a Piet, notice the lack of zwarte before the word Piet. There was this interview with Sinterklaas on tv for the children and he told them that everybody could help him out and be a Piet if they had an outfit and wanted to help him. In this whole segment they never mentioned that you should be black. so it really seems that they're finally changing the image of Piet this year. If this continues I'm sure there will be way less Black Piets in the coming years and more Piets.
Reizo Ryuu
Member
I'm personally indifferent to all of the outrage/opposition regarding this tradition, and I think (assumption from observation) most people from Holland are the same.
I feel the strongest opposition comes from south western Netherlands, which is also where the lowest concentration of "non-whites" live.
I feel this tradition will be very hard to change simply because of there being so many people that simply do not care, compared to those that protest/oppose.
I feel the strongest opposition comes from south western Netherlands, which is also where the lowest concentration of "non-whites" live.
I feel this tradition will be very hard to change simply because of there being so many people that simply do not care, compared to those that protest/oppose.
speculawyer
Member
The classic David Sedaris piece on this issue:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYdpte1W0vk
The Christmas stuff starts around 5 minutes in and works toward the Dutch traditions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYdpte1W0vk
The Christmas stuff starts around 5 minutes in and works toward the Dutch traditions.
Coincidentally, would you happen to be a white man?
Hmmm. I just learned about this last year. I'm usually pretty aware of annual traditions here
Honestly it's likely better that they do it around the kids who then have to question what is going on(without violence of course, to children or otherwise).
Reizo Ryuu
Member
I'm not white.
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