This is related to this topic in what way?
the same way that thanksgiving and black friday are
This is related to this topic in what way?
I can assure you that it would still bring kids a lot of joy if you got rid of the lipstick and afros and replaced the paint with stuff that actually looked like patches of soot.
i wonder if you got banned last time for making ludicrous arguments
This is related to this topic in what way?
I remember as a kid in elementary school we would have some kids dress up like pilgrims and some as native americans to re-enact the first Thanksgiving. If you told me that was racist and we should stop because it offends you I wouldn't fight it. As long as we don't have to give up the turkey.
But no one painted their faces red, either.
But some people do feel it is, and are thusly offended. So in direct response, Sinterklaas is not about the enslavement of black people.
Stop doing this. Saying things without knowing shit about them. Half of the Netherlands doesn't want to change the tradition. Most of all, the tradition itself doesn't promote racism, at least almost nobody over here where people actually know what it's about think about it that way.
It doesn't hurt me at all. I am just trying to give insides how people who actually live in The Netherlands experience it....
Like that even a lot of black people don't think its racism. And speaking up against something? I am sorry bro but in this country a lot more than that has happened. They even went to court to prosecute the City of Amsterdam and they got what they wanted. We introduced ''Clown Pieten'' who are like white with clown faces. We have yellow pieten now, rainbow pieten, Cheese Pieten and so on.
Well at least black people here still have equal rights and don't get pulled over by cops for nothing like in the US.
Meanwhile in Curacao:
There are around 100 people putting the 'racism' stamp on our annual children's party that has been present for dozens of years, but in Curacao people are actually putting up more black make-up and are partying like crazy because they know how to differentiate the fantasy of a child to that of an adult. I, as a kid back in the 90's, enjoyed the whole atmosphere that surrounded Sinterklaas and Zwarte Pieten and not once did I discriminate other black people during that period, nor do I do that now.
So saying that 'Zwarte Piet' is racist does not sit well with me. They are fantasy based persons who bring joy and laughter into children's hearts, not racism. Children do not even know what racism is. That part gets created in their minds by society as a whole when they are old enough to comprehend what is actually going on in the world, and that happens far beyond the point when their parents say that 'Sinterklaas' does not exist.
Why not? Not keeping it would be racist against all the other races. Can't have that.
There is no fake accent. Please don't make stuff up without a source.
So, the racial caricature is fine because easily-impressionable children are the target audience.
Wait, what?
i'm from Belgium and luckily here this isn't as big an item as with our neighbors (and hopefully it stays that way)
of all the important things in the world, this surely has to be on top of that list!
Well someone explained to me that its called Black Friday because companees make money out of there sales and advertisement...
stop being dense. no one is going to be offended that everyone dressing as "---" pete is white because they're all actually white, the only people who will be upset are those clinging onto their "traditions"
Yeah, just read the post above. my bad.Well someone explained to me that its called Black Friday because companees make money out of there sales and advertisement...
Who chose those colors in the first place?
Why is gaining profit written in black? Black as in black slaves working?
No clue why those colors were initially chosen. But I'm 100% certain you're reaching on the slaves thing being the reason.
I definitely agree with that, as I said a few times in this thread.
I got banned because I said that growing up in Belgium, this never seemed like a racist tradition to me as a kid.
So uhm, who is being treated unequally in this case?
If you create yellow pete's the asian will be offended. Oh, wait.. That did not happen.
If they are going to create white pete's I am going to be offended. Oh, wait. No.. I can actually differentiate myself from adult life and children's fantasies.
I can assure you the majority of the black society here in Holland absolutely love the ancient old tradition here. It is the vocal minority that disagrees with it because they actually have the time to feel offended by a party that is undeniably created for children's.
It is not like we are burning crosses in front of our houses with white cloaks on.
Exactly. You are proving my point. I would never call these children bigots or homophobes. And in the same vein, I would not call people in Zwarte Piet outfits racists.
FYI Sint Niclaas originated form the city of Myra in Turkey. He was known among other stuff for liberating black children from slave ships and actually paying them money to be servants of his. They lived on there own and independent. So they were never his slaves he actually liberated them from a life in enslavement....
FYI Sint Niclaas originated form the city of Myra in Turkey. He was known among other stuff for liberating black children from slave ships and actually paying them money to be servants of his. They lived on there own and independent. So they were never his slaves he actually liberated them from a life in enslavement....
I agree, but 83% of dutch people don't want to make any changes to Zwarte Piet. A lot of people here are actually really emotional about it.They don't need to get rid of the whole tradition. Just get rid of the huge red lips, big afro wig and use black face paint instead of brown. It isnt exactly rocket science.
Well the Dutch kept Apartheid going till 1994, they seem real good at keeping racism going.
It's amazing that people are finding it hard to believe that the Zwarte Piet image is built on the derogatory image of a black person used in the past. It doesn't even remotely represent someone who has been dirtied by soot, yet looks exactly like a Golliwog.
Just because something is considered tradition does not mean a person should throw all sensibility out of the window and not reconsider whether your tradition is based on something acceptable. The use of the age of the tradition to continue doing something wrong has to be one of the most short-sighted reasons when you consider the context that black people in prior years were not exactly regarded as equals.
Liberation of slaves sounds like an awesome thing to celebrate.
I am fine with different colored Pete's, do not get me wrong.
The vocal minority who are feeling offended by our tradition are not making themselves love-able in the process, though.
Not when you ignore the designated 'strike' places that have been put by the police, yet they go right to the area where all the kids are and say things like ''Sinterklaas does not exist!''
Martin Luther King Jr. said:Over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negros great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizens Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to order than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another mans freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a more convenient season.
Well the Dutch kept Apartheid going till 1994, they seem real good at keeping racism going.
You're now confusing The Netherlands with South Africa. Good job.
Wow, you are mixing up South Africans with the Dutch. It's true that there are many Dutch influences in South-Africa, but they aren't "the Dutch".
You kind of invalidate your point considering the people in Curacao actually make themselves more black while they.. Hold your breath.. are black.. Shocker! - I know.
Now tell me why they do not feel discriminated like the vocal minority that are present here in Holland.
Every person of color who was ever called a 'zwarte piet' or takes offense with the stereotypical and racially insensitive zwarte piet character.
It's an open and shut case of institutionalized racism. That so many Dutch people claim that 'it's not meant to be racist' is totally irrelevant if (even if it's only a small minority) does experience it like that.
Furthermore, considering how it looks identical to the completely unacceptable and racist tradition of blackface, I think it's time to abolish the character of zwarte piet. Who in their right mind would want to present him or herself like that to the international community? It is fucking shameful is what it is.
Yes it should be non issue, yes the discussion is an incredible waste of time. But that is exactly why it is so disappointing. What hope do we have as a species if we can't even see something completely obvious like this for what it is, make the right decision and fucking move on?
No you are not, because you it is very likely you live in a society where 'white' is still being regarded as the gold standard. Racism remains a major issue and the fact that it's no longer visible through explicit segregation or assholes stringing people up, does not mean it's no longer there. So please consider that this 'children's fantasy' can have very real consequences - OR - that some people view it as one of the symptoms of a society that hasn't quite moved past issues of race.
Not trying to be facetious but genuinely intereste: were black people persecuted or repressed in the netherlands?
I'm arguing that blackface is racist and I'm not sure how anyone could think otherwise.Are you arguing that the people wearing the make up/costume believe that black people are inherently inferior because of their skin color?
Speaking of traditions maybe Americans need to stop with Black Friday. Why is it even called Black Friday?
We don't know what the world thinks about it. Also people in the pics don't look like just a few old Dutch people. It's a weak argument.
A good argument is that the current form of zwarte piet looks very much like the blackface in minstrel shows which is obviously problematic. So ditch the red lips and make it look like it more like actual soot and the problem is solved.
Do people actually think this is a racial thing?
Well damn.Haha, yes we do. Google it from any country except Holland and see how the news is reporting it.
Also who are you arguing with? I guess tilting at Windmills is appropriate for this story.
Do people actually think this is a racial thing?
Worked Black Fridays before, I've come to the conclusion that it represents the color of consumer's hearts when dealing with retail employees that day.
It's a desperate attempt at deflection.
Coincidentally, would you happen to be a white man?I'm personally indifferent to all of the outrage/opposition regarding this tradition, and I think (assumption from observation) most people from Holland are the same.
I feel the strongest opposition comes from south western Netherlands, which is also where the lowest concentration of "non-whites" live.
I feel this tradition will be very hard to change simply because of there being so many people that simply do not care, compared to those that protest/oppose.
MODERATOR'S NOTE:
Hello, and welcome to our yearly Zwarte Piet thread. For those of you new to this particular tradition, I have some brief advice for you.
I'm pretty sure the kids won't care what kind of color Piet is (I know I wouldn't have), and it is pathetic to see adults saying that they won't change their traditions for 'foreigners' and that they should change their traditions instead. Well, guess what, most of these people are as Dutch as you are.
However, I don't think they should have protested where the kids were standing... that's pathetic in its own right
Coincidentally, would you happen to be a white man?