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[BrassDragon]

That's not what I said. But the ruling contradicts the terrible logic of 'not many of us see it as offensive so it can't be offensive' and 'just Americans projecting'.

Ah, gotcha - aplogies for the snark.

And that's some silly reasoning by the defenders. The lack of awareness is an obstacle not an excuse - it's the reason this change is moving at an infuriatingly slow pace even though the offensiveness seems painfully obvious to most non-Dutch GAFfers.

I personally think this lawsuit is pointless and not adding anything to the public debate (in fact, it seems the activists thought they could use it as a way to bypass the debate altogether but the sympathetic judge pointed them right back to arena.)

It's hard to emphasise how unaware people are over here though I suppose some posters demonstrate it eloquently.

 

[PBY]

Ah, gotcha - aplogies for the snark.

And that's some silly reasoning by the defenders. The lack of awareness is an obstacle not an excuse - it's the reason this change is moving at an infuriatingly slow pace even though the offensiveness seems painfully obvious to most non-Dutch GAFfers.

I personally think this lawsuit is pointless and not adding anything to the public debate (in fact, it seems the activists thought they could use it as a way to bypass the debate altogether but the sympathetic judge pointed them right back to arena.)

It's hard to emphasise how unaware people are over here though I suppose some posters demonstrate it eloquently.

Sometimes there shouldn't be a debate though- sometimes there just is a right side and a wrong side, and thats that.

 

[BrassDragon]

Sometimes there shouldn't be a debate though- sometimes there just is a right side and a wrong side, and thats that.

Okay, you and I agree - now what? The European Union outlaws the practice and, poof, it's gone form the minds of 15 million people?

This is not something we came up with overnight. It won't disappear overnight.

 

[Slayven]

Okay, you and I agree - now what? The European Union outlaws the practice and, poof, it's gone form the minds of 15 million people?

This is not something we came up with overnight. It won't disappear overnight.

First step is acknowledging it's not a good look.

 

[methane47]

I just finished reading the verdict and nothing in there suggests that we're looking at the end of Zwarte Piet in the Netherlands.

If you organise a public event over here, you need to get a permit from the municipal authorities. These permits are granted by default unless there are objections over safety or public order. Because these permits come from the government, they cannot contravene national legislation or treaties.

A few claimaints have sued the municipality of Amsterdam because they feel granting a permit to the Sinterklaas parade (which includes Black Petes) was illegal.

Just so we're clear: EVERY town and city in the Netherlands celebrates Sinterklaas in the public space: this case only covers the objections of a handful of citizens in a single city.

The city of Amsterdam counters that there was no reason to refuse the permit because there was no threat to public order or safety.

However, the Netherlands have signed European treaties guaranteeing the dignity of private persons. Because Zwarte Piet is rooted in a negative stereotyping of people of colour, the court allows that the claimaints have a case that their dignity has been compromised by public displays of Zwarte Piet. However, in the judge's opinion, the affront to their dignity is not sufficiently grave to declare the granting of the permit a violation of our human rights treaties (I wonder if the claimants will seek to appeal this before a European court.)

This does NOT mean that Zwarte Piet is now forbidden and can't legally be part of the festivities. The court has only stated that the grievances of the claimants are genuine and admonishes the municipality to weigh this grievance against the interests of other parties when giving out permits in the future.

Despite this admonishment, there was no legal reason for Amsterdam to deny the permit.

The public debate will continue and I'm sure we'll see change to Zwarte Piet. But no international pressure or legal wrangling is going to speed up this process. Sorry.

Its one step in the right direction... I'll take it

 

[genjiZERO]

Wow that's unexpected. Just drop the makeup and accessories is all you need to do.

 

[Drazgul]

They should adopt a fine norwegian tradition and reimagine him as Black Metal Pete:

Kids love them!

 

[Arjen]

Sometimes there shouldn't be a debate though- sometimes there just is a right side and a wrong side, and thats that.

Maybe. Like i said i agree it needs no change.
But try to imagine living 25+ years thinking you're celebrating a fun holiday, then somebody comes and tell you you're a racist piece of shit. It's not that weird people get defensive.
We'll get there, it's just gonna take some time.

 

[Opiate]

Maybe. Like i said i agree it needs no change.
But try to imagine living 25+ years thinking you're celebrating a fun holiday, then somebody comes and tell you you're a racist piece of shit. It's not that weird people get defensive.
We'll get there, it's just gonna take some time.

Agree completely. As always, people underestimate how difficult it is for humans to change. For the most part, I think "change" will occur as new generations are very slowly and gradually weaned off the current instantiation of Zwarte Piet.

Slowly turn Zwarte Piet in to a boy with soot stains on his face but no red lips or wig. In a couple of generations, the kids born then won't know the difference.

 

[ReiGun]

Yeah, its the people offended by racial caricatures that are the racists. :/

It's, like, reverse double dog racism, breh.

 

[Antagon]

They should adopt a fine norwegian tradition and reimagine him as Black Metal Pete:

Kids love them!

Nah, they should go for the character from an earlier Saint Nicolas story, Krampus:

 

[Angelus Errare]

Yeah, its the people offended by racial caricatures that are the racists. :/

Pretty much the normal response when people get uncomfortable. No matter how crazy the argument sounds.

 

[Drazgul]

Nah, they should go for the character from an earlier Saint Nicolas story, Krampus:

Well that's pretty metal too, either way would work just fine I'm sure.

 

[Always-honest]

I'm dutch, i agree.
No problem of making Pete's all colours of the rainbow.

 

[Slayven]

Pretty much the normal response when people get uncomfortable. No matter how crazy the argument sounds.

the old "you are racist for pointing out racist things" shuffle. Never stops being fun.

 

[mckmas8808]

This feels like the arguments that are being had in America over the Washington Redskins name.

 

[mckmas8808]

Maybe. Like i said i agree it needs no change.
But try to imagine living 25+ years thinking you're celebrating a fun holiday, then somebody comes and tell you you're a racist piece of shit. It's not that weird people get defensive.
We'll get there, it's just gonna take some time.

Or how about realizing that the image is racist and not the person celebrating the holiday. You don't have to take it so personally. If you slightly change the image, then 10 years from now everybody will be happy.

 

[SpacePirate Ridley]

And what about Baltasar?

He is a black person, if some years ago in christmas the actor was a white portraying a black person (what americans would call a blackface, I think is the wrong term used in this case, becuase it was not portrayed as a caricature) is because in Spain there was not as much african immigration as there is now. The majority of Three Wise Men city parades and malls are usually using black actors now.

At least they are depicting Baltasar as a black person, something that he probably was, instead of 3 white kings like in nthe first bible depictions.

 

[bobbychalkers]

I think it's racist to claim that zwarte piet is a negative stereotype.

Damn number 8!
http://africasacountry.com/10-excuses-most-dutch-people-make-for-racism/

 

[Paskil]

I still remember going to Amsterdam in 2007, the week of American Thanksgiving (11/17-11/24, that year). I was slowly making my way from Centraal Station to my hotel in Rembrandtplein, taking a long roundabout way and visiting a few coffeeshops along the way. I found myself on a street that was blocked off for a parade. Curious, I moved closer to the metal barrier and was shocked to see a bunch of crazily dressed blackface individuals, moving very swiftly in the parade on rollerskates.

I had no idea at the time that the Zwarte Piet thing was a thing. I had to go sit down because I was pretty confused.

Good times.

 

[Infinite]

Maybe. Like i said i agree it needs no change.
But try to imagine living 25+ years thinking you're celebrating a fun holiday, then somebody comes and tell you you're a racist piece of shit. It's not that weird people get defensive.
We'll get there, it's just gonna take some time.

This is an issue always surrounding discussions like these. Like there's a huge difference between saying what someone does is racist and arguing that they are a racist person. No one is saying that all dutch people are racist just that Zwarte Piet is.

 

[Onemic]

About time.

I dont get the defense over Zwerte Pete. I mean, his origins are factually racist. It's like the people defending the depiction of him somehow forget that.

 

[SecretMoblin]

Feels like I have to dig up old arguments that have been repeated and I don't want this to lead to (another fucking Pete) discussion, but here goes;
It's a character for a kids festivity. Kids do not perceive zwarte piet as a negro/negative stereotype. Zwarte pieten are presented as smart, well spoken, somewhat mischievous assistants, each having a different specialty. They are presented as such in the media/TV programs leading up to 5 December, the shows with what kids consider as the "real" Sinterklaas en Zwarte Pieten.
Kids of all skin color, even in all the 'zwarte' neighbourhoods dress up as zwarte piet and celebrate Sinterklaas.

...well spoken, huh

 

[Dude Abides]

...well spoken, huh

Black Pete is one of the good ones. Knows his place and doesn't get all uppity.

 

[EscoBlades]

Feels like I have to dig up old arguments that have been repeated and I don't want this to lead to (another fucking Pete) discussion, but here goes;
It's a character for a kids festivity. Kids do not perceive zwarte piet as a negro/negative stereotype. Zwarte pieten are presented as smart, well spoken, somewhat mischievous assistants, each having a different specialty. They are presented as such in the media/TV programs leading up to 5 December, the shows with what kids consider as the "real" Sinterklaas en Zwarte Pieten.
Kids of all skin color, even in all the 'zwarte' neighbourhoods dress up as zwarte piet and celebrate Sinterklaas.

No.

 

[JDSN]

Fucking pussy liberal racist americans invading our non-racists european nation's courts.

 

[genjiZERO]

He is a black person, if some years ago in christmas the actor was a white portraying a black person (what americans would call a blackface, I think is the wrong term used in this case, becuase it was not portrayed as a caricature) is because in Spain there was not as much african immigration as there is now. The majority of Three Wise Men city parades and malls are usually using black actors now.

At least they are depicting Baltasar as a black person, something that he probably was, instead of 3 white kings like in nthe first bible depictions.

My understanding is that the three wise-men represent Zoroastrian astrologists. If that's the case, then they would be white since they are Persians.

Yeah, here's a wiki on it.

Also, here's an essay about when Balthasar started being depicted as black.

 

[MIMIC]

Fucking pussy liberal racist americans invading our non-racists european nation's courts.

But it's a tradition. Kids love it. This court must be run by American imperialists.

Radical American judge no doubt. Forcing their racist traditions.

lol

EDIT: I'm assuming this is sarcasm, referencing the posts in the Kardashian thread.

 

[Slayven]

Black Pete is one of the good ones. Knows his place and doesn't get all uppity.

Don't trust those new Black Petes over there.

 

[JDSN]

Don't trust those new Black Petes over there.

Black Pete is sure a thug, wearing his hoodie and uploading pictures of him giving the finger on facebook.

 

[Arjen]

This is an issue always surrounding discussions like these. Like there's a huge difference between saying what someone does is racist and arguing that they are a racist person. No one is saying that all dutch people are racist just that Zwarte Piet is.

I'm sure you're right.
I always feel like being treated like racist euroscum in these threads though.

 

[a Master Ninja]

What's the problem? It's not like the Dutch were ever involved in enslaving Africans.

 

[Black Republican]

why not rebrand him to some black superhero saving the dutch people?!

 

[Lebron]

What's the problem? It's not like the Dutch were ever involved in enslaving Africans.

....they were involved in the Slave Trade

Edit:

Oh. Sarcasm. I just can't catch it anymore with these threads! My bad lol

 

[Talon]

....they were involved in the Slave Trade

I believe he was being sarcastic.

 

[Lebron]

I believe he was being sarcastic.

Yeah, I just realized that. After the last one, I just can't tell anymore.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

Debate over Zwarte Piet has intensified in the Netherlands in recent years as opponents say the black clown with thick red lips and a frizzy Afro hairstyle is a racist caricature. Most Dutch people argue he is a harmless fantasy figure and say no insult is intended.

Are the Dutch also fans of the Redskins?

 

[KevinRo]

activist judge...

but seriously... would the kids REALLY care if their favorite holiday heroes just suddenly stopped appearing with blackface, steel wool hair or nigger lips and simply still dressed up in the fancy clothes and did everything else the exact same?

WTF IS THIS?

Is there no moderation EVER in these threads?

 

[NYCmetsfan]

Feels like I have to dig up old arguments that have been repeated and I don't want this to lead to (another fucking Pete) discussion, but here goes;
It's a character for a kids festivity. Kids do not perceive zwarte piet as a negro/negative stereotype. Zwarte pieten are presented as smart, well spoken, somewhat mischievous assistants, each having a different specialty. They are presented as such in the media/TV programs leading up to 5 December, the shows with what kids consider as the "real" Sinterklaas en Zwarte Pieten.
Kids of all skin color, even in all the 'zwarte' neighbourhoods dress up as zwarte piet and celebrate Sinterklaas.

This is the defense?

 

[Akainu]

Feels like I have to dig up old arguments that have been repeated and I don't want this to lead to (another fucking Pete) discussion, but here goes;
It's a character for a kids festivity. Kids do not perceive zwarte piet as a negro/negative stereotype. Zwarte pieten are presented as smart, well spoken, somewhat mischievous assistants, each having a different specialty. They are presented as such in the media/TV programs leading up to 5 December, the shows with what kids consider as the "real" Sinterklaas en Zwarte Pieten.
Kids of all skin color, even in all the 'zwarte' neighbourhoods dress up as zwarte piet and celebrate Sinterklaas.

Oh, you were serious.

 

[Necromanti]

Zwarte Pieten are not a stereotype of black people because they are smart and well-spoken.

Spoiler

Implying that...

 

[Supermanisdead]

Feels like I have to dig up old arguments that have been repeated and I don't want this to lead to (another fucking Pete) discussion, but here goes;
It's a character for a kids festivity. Kids do not perceive zwarte piet as a negro/negative stereotype. Zwarte pieten are presented as smart, well spoken, somewhat mischievous assistants, each having a different specialty. They are presented as such in the media/TV programs leading up to 5 December, the shows with what kids consider as the "real" Sinterklaas en Zwarte Pieten.
Kids of all skin color, even in all the 'zwarte' neighbourhoods dress up as zwarte piet and celebrate Sinterklaas.

rofl nooooooooo

 

[kess]

.
Edit: And I don't think that black Pete should be scrapped. Just change his costume to reflect the more modern story (with him being black from soot). Drop the red lips, earrings and wig. Don't apply the black make up evenly. Doesn't really change the holiday at all.

Dick Van Dyke as Zwarte Piet CONFIRMED

 

[IN&OUT]

People are offended by anything theses days.

 

[Chuckie]

Yeah I think some Dutch Gaffers where already proposing that.

Yeah I have been for a while.

 

[sooperkool]

activist judge...

but seriously... would the kids REALLY care if their favorite holiday heroes just suddenly stopped appearing with blackface, steel wool hair or nigger lips and simply still dressed up in the fancy clothes and did everything else the exact same?

My day was going like this:

Then I read stupid shit like this and now its like this:

 

[sooperkool]

Zwarte Pieten are not a stereotype of black people because they are smart and well-spoken.

Spoiler

Implying that...

ITT: racists don't understand how positive qualities can be attached to negative stereotypes:

 

[Akainu]

...well spoken, huh

I didn't even know he was a zwarte piet over the phone.

 

[freenudemacusers]

i guess i'm ok with people celebrating zwarte piet, i just don't want one of them dating my daughter.

 

[a Master Ninja]

I didn't even know he was a zwarte piet over the phone.

This is great.