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'Zwarte Piet' Controversy Leads To 90 Arrests In Netherlands
- Thread starter maquiladora
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How is it wrong? Basically every country in the world has institutionalized racism, in Western Europe white people are the oppressors and benefit from this.
"The term white supremacy is used in academic studies of racial power to denote a system of structural or societal racism which privileges white people over others, regardless of the presence or absence of racial hatred. "
Other than the whole kidnap bad children and send them back to Spain, Zwarte Piet in some cultures are portrayed as 'bogeymen' while the other time they're portrayed as oafs.
~Devil Trigger~
In favor of setting Muslim women on fire
are you seriously that dense?
its a cultural practice that projects black people into caricatures...
What's sad is that people actually use that as an excuse to be racist. Especially in the states, elderly people will flat out tell you, "they didn't say nothing in my day". Yeah because if they said something in your day they would be killed or, at the very least, beaten up.
That was more of a rhetorical question since people always like to bring the "it's soot" point up while ignoring all the other parts of the "costume"
How do you burn a pitchfork? Between this and the chimney sweep argument, I'm not sure people know anything about manual labour at all.
PjotrStroganov
Member
Nah. Just ignorant. They aren't trying to marginalize a minority group.
Wow...lol.
Pretty much the same thing I hear. It just boggles my mind people are so up in arms over some dumb tradition aimed at kids.
soundscream
Member
Its in Dutch but its worth reading:
https://amsterdam.groenlinks.nl/nieuws/verklaring-iwan-leeuwin-opening-nelson-mandelapark
Groenlinks (freely translated Green Left) Iwan Leeuwin was at the opening of the Nelson Mandela Park in Amsterdam where elemantary school children build a statue of Nelson Mandela with balloons. And mister Iwan Leeuwin was supposed to speak at that event but he left angry and outraged because the statue in his opinion looked too much like Zwarte Pieter/ Black Peter
Here you can see the statue:
http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven/2014/10/open_brief_aan_iwan_leeuwin.html
In the end Iwan appologized to those children who made the statue but its completely insane.
https://amsterdam.groenlinks.nl/nieuws/verklaring-iwan-leeuwin-opening-nelson-mandelapark
Groenlinks (freely translated Green Left) Iwan Leeuwin was at the opening of the Nelson Mandela Park in Amsterdam where elemantary school children build a statue of Nelson Mandela with balloons. And mister Iwan Leeuwin was supposed to speak at that event but he left angry and outraged because the statue in his opinion looked too much like Zwarte Pieter/ Black Peter
Here you can see the statue:
http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven/2014/10/open_brief_aan_iwan_leeuwin.html
In the end Iwan appologized to those children who made the statue but its completely insane.
You know what else was a tradition? Slavery.
Angelus Errare
Banned
If you ignore all of human history then sure. Things never change.
Surely Dutch culture is much more than people dressing up in blackface and taking the piss out of brown people right?
We'll see.
Where were you when the civil rights movement happened?????
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Good lord. Let me go work on my paper before I say something to get me banned.
It's not like all , or even most of those against abolishing this "tradition" are racist. It is not "sending a racist message" to all those children. I can assure you, none of them look ak it that way. Before this whole thing happened, nobody thought about it in any racist way, although that's probably how it originated.
This is the beginning of how things change. If you're so upset changing some racist tradition will take away your culture, your culture needs better traditions.
Maybe change black pete to yellow sam?
Ingueferroque
Banned
~Devil Trigger~
In favor of setting Muslim women on fire
See the difference?
Dont you know dude...
soot in the face gives White people hair to afros
Oh I know, but then I saw people in this thread actually wondering what the red lips meant. Some people really don't get it...
PjotrStroganov
Member
Nah, that was business.
Why would you go this route of sarcasm when you haven't added anything of note either? :|
Isn't this a tradition rooted in catering to children though? I'm not entirely sure how you can be for a protesting but then have issues with it taking place during the festivity. I mean I'm pretty sure the target audience are the parents that pass on the tradition to the kids.
I can guarantee you the PVV (Wilders) will be the biggest party in the next election. It's just the way things work around here, especially with these kind of events.
Wilders has a plan for a new law that basically preserves everything around 'Zwarte Piet'
quickwhips
Member
Put some soot on your face but don't paint your face black and give yourself red lips and the problem is fixed. I'm sure this was meant to be harmless but then some racist fucks got a hold of it and made it black face with red lips. Just switch it back to black carcoal patches on face and I'm sure we can all coexist?
Yellow Sam? How about red Jim?
Souldriver
Member
Also, isn't the "root on faces" explanation already a change in the tradtion to appease more modern views? I thought the original story was about Sinterklaas freeing African slaves, so like, actual black people.
Anyway, goes to show that the tradition isn't "sacred" and "untouchable". It has changed many, many times already. Why not change it again to make it even more with the times and enjoyable for everyone?
Anyway, goes to show that the tradition isn't "sacred" and "untouchable". It has changed many, many times already. Why not change it again to make it even more with the times and enjoyable for everyone?
Really now?
Yeah, I meant that it's dumb that people still try to keep things the way they are for those reasons. I guess I wasn't clear about that.
Ingueferroque
Banned
This is my issue with this conversation on NeoGAF. Every time.
sakipon
Member
No offence to the kids but that is quite an ugly statue.
I suppose I have some relevant perspective on this since I grew up with Zwarte Piet and Sinter Klaaas.
When I was younger I never thought of it as racist. I was just a kid ignorant of the history or the implications. I celebrated the holiday just like everyone else and I never felt left out, mocked or anything of the sort.
Now that I'm a little older and a little wiser, though I am not personally offended by something I view as a childhood tradition, I do understand that it is blackface, and while The Netherlands aren't as famously associated with slavery and racism as the US (though they should be), it is offensive, and conflicted as I may be, it is time Zwarte Piet is put to rest, or at the very least, altered in a way that makes it far less offensive. The traditional garb of blackface has been altered already in various parts of the country, even when I was growing up, and some people would only put on a little soot or bronze and no lipstick at all if not a more subdued shade of red. Perhaps more can be done in that respect.
I understand and empathise with the instinctual desire to protect and defend traditions against outsider influence, but some traditions aren't worth fighting for, and one that perpetuates racist stereotypes certainly isn't.
When I was younger I never thought of it as racist. I was just a kid ignorant of the history or the implications. I celebrated the holiday just like everyone else and I never felt left out, mocked or anything of the sort.
Now that I'm a little older and a little wiser, though I am not personally offended by something I view as a childhood tradition, I do understand that it is blackface, and while The Netherlands aren't as famously associated with slavery and racism as the US (though they should be), it is offensive, and conflicted as I may be, it is time Zwarte Piet is put to rest, or at the very least, altered in a way that makes it far less offensive. The traditional garb of blackface has been altered already in various parts of the country, even when I was growing up, and some people would only put on a little soot or bronze and no lipstick at all if not a more subdued shade of red. Perhaps more can be done in that respect.
I understand and empathise with the instinctual desire to protect and defend traditions against outsider influence, but some traditions aren't worth fighting for, and one that perpetuates racist stereotypes certainly isn't.
Looks like a good way to burn a strawman.
kurisu1974
Banned
You are misunderstanding me, it would never be justifiable, but these reactions seem instilled or at least inspired by the Zwarte Piet controversy.
Prophet Steve
Member
I feel it will change within five years or so. I like the idea of just putting some soot on faces as it also wouldn't conflict with any rhymes, songs and stories. I doubt people would be too opposed for that. Except for the hardcore pro-zwarte piet that protest to keep the tradition.
That would easily solve the problem, unfortunately you have "traditionalists" that prefer their minstrel caricature.
Purple penguins.
maquiladora
Member
Bullshit. This is from a kid's book on Zwarte Piet :
Yikes.
We don't know what the world thinks about it. Also people in the pics don't look like just a few old Dutch people. It's a weak argument.
A good argument is that the current form of zwarte piet looks very much like the blackface in minstrel shows which is obviously problematic. So ditch the red lips and make it look like it more like actual soot and the problem is solved.
Already taken by Dan Snyder.
maquiladora
Member
I wonder what the N stands for
Nchimneysweeper. Obviously.
What about the afros?
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