Germany.
It obviously differs where and who exactly is having that discussion or is taking part.
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'Zwarte Piet' Controversy Leads To 90 Arrests In Netherlands
- Thread starter maquiladora
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Germany.
It obviously differs where and who exactly is having that discussion or is taking part.
Prophet Steve
Member
Oh come on, it is a parade that has been doing for many, many years that has pro-supporters too, the government would go against many people if they would suddenly ban the event. Yes, the protesters are in the wrong to go to the parade and expose children to escalations if they are provided a different place (that isn't completely out of sight, unlike everyone seems to assume).
Yes yes yes, someone think of the children and all that, but in this case it did escalate.
The Dutch Ombudsman is the exact party that said there is no structural discrimination in the Schilderswijk and I don't know about any reports that talk about racism in The Netherlands by the police.
Were protestors screaming in kids' faces? Yes or no?
It seems a pretty simple question to answer.
BlackBuzzard
Banned
It does make for some very entertaining TV especially on Pownews. The stupidity people on both sides spout is so good.
Dreams-Visions
Member
Bullshit. This is from a kid's book on Zwarte Piet :
exposed.
Hugo Camps - a major Belgian journalist - also made a good point on the rise of this nationalistic feeling in The Netherlands, a country once known and praised for its multicultural society. He claims it is a large reaction to the country having lost its own identity. One part of the country is tightly clinging to Zwarte Piet and Sinterklaas as a remnant of that identity. It is one of the few aspects that still makes the Netherlands the Netherlands.
Yep, can't say the entertainment value has been dissapointing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejy9Uy5E2WI&app=desktop
WHO ARE YOU ARGUING WITH? You agree Zwarte Piet is racist and you are wrong about the rest of the world agreeing it's racist.
Prophet Steve
Member
I have never said anything like that. I just said the protesters are in the wrong because of their approach. As far as I know the screaming in childrens faces was whether protesting was an effective way to teach children. I don't see how the two were very related.
I honestly don't know anymore about that than what is stated in the OP. So I assume no. But I do have a source for the local government stating that they weren't allowed to protest there because of possible escalations with the pro-pieten group in a children festivity.
I haven't made any statements about what the protesters did, only that going to the parade resulted in escalations.
I'm not choosing to be ignorant of our racist/brutal police, I'd just need to see actual evidence showing they are. Because the fact people are actually telling me the majority of the Dutch police force is either racist or overly agressive is laughable to me.
Anyway, this is going off-topic. Point is that it wasn't the fault of the police that the protesters had to be removed in such a forceful manner. They were given more than enough time and opportunity after multiple notices to move on their own and after that simply refused cooperation. And then the police had to deal with the way worse pro-Zwarte Piet protesters (a small group consisting of football hooligans and the likes) on top of that. This was just the police doing their job.
Yes
"En er werd van alles naar mijn zoontje geschreeuwd"
http://www.metronieuws.nl/nieuws/du...interklaasintocht-gouda/SrZnko!w70aOjWec5N9k/
Is it really that hard to make Zwarte Piet not a racist caricature? I mean come on already.
And some of the discussions in Germany I've seen in regards to treatment of Muslims are similar to how other European countries conduct their discourses on Muslims. See also what Günter Wallraff tried to do.
I'm not saying Germany is as incompetent as e.g. France, Netherlands, or Denmark, but there is a problem that Continental Europe is having when it comes to talking about race, I would argue.
Sweden knows what's up, though.
Raven Prime
Member
Yes there are many pro-supporters, not only many but even the majority of the Dutch should be considered pro as has been repeated over and over again. I also never said the government had to ban the event, they just should have taken the constitution seriously and banned all racist elements, meaning changed the appearance of Piet. The problem however is that the majority of the Dutch including the establishment deny or downplay the racist elements.
It doesn't change however that the local goverment should take the constitution seriously and ban all forms of racism, instead of giving them a central podium.
Again the protesters where in the right, the local government was in the wrong.
Well it's ironic that the Ombudsman concluded that the Netherlands has a structural problem with racism but somehow would claim there is no structural racism within it's police force. It is however possible that a certain report couldn't find that racism. Wouldn't be the first time a specific report failed to capture an accurate representation of the actual situation.
Yes, there were anti Zwarte Piet protestors yelling at children that Sinterklaas doesn't exist and that Zwarte Piet is racist. They also used the words "Amandla Awethu", which is something the people in South Africa used during the Apartheid regime meaning 'The power is ours'.
And those protestors shouldn't have been near to those kids in the first place if they just followed the rules.
Raven Prime
Member
Yeah racism is such a non-problem. Please tell me this wasn't a serious post.
If my google translator is to be believed, it sounds like things escalated when some big white men got in the protesters faces. Specifically this part:
BlackBuzzard
Banned
That entire segment was really good.
Yeah, that is missing the point. It can be changed, but only if you're ignoring why everyone is making it an issue.
it's a well known fact soot makes your hair nappy and lips red.
That is one arrest out of 90, and a little bit of unrest. It wasn't the main reason for the arrests.
Please stop.
There were protestors with a sign saying that Zwarte Piet is racist at a location they weren't supposed to be. Some pro piet people then chose to block the sign by standing in front of it so people couldn't read the text.
So in fact both pro and anti piet people were in the wrong. The anti people shouldn't have been there in the first place. The pro people should have just ignored them and be the adults there. And believe me, the anti piet people damn well knew what they were doing by ignoring the clearly given guidlines for protesting. There wasn't a scenario possible in which it wouldn't get out of hand.
Prophet Steve
Member
I think the protesters are wrong whether or not the local government should have banned the event. I don't think the extra exposure was a good reason for high chances of escalations in an area full with children.
So, searching for reports in regards to racism of the Ombudsman, there is a report of a year ago that "Politics in The Hague are racist". Apparently that is again based on an European report. So I assume that is what you are referring to and it is true that they seem conflicting. Even then, there is a bit of a difference between problems with racism in our politics (ugh, Wilders) and the police.
Dreams-Visions
Member
For some reason, this "think of the children" side conversation feels like a heavy bit of misdirection. Arguing about the manner in which someone peacefully protests instead of focusing the discussion on the reason they're protesting in the first place seems very disingenuous and an intentional effort to side-step the important matter at hand.
Raven Prime
Member
You are right, because a parade with racist elements by definition means the situation has gotten out of hand. And it has been so for over a 100 years, go figure.
I thought we got passed the snappy remarks by now? I don't even express my own opinion on the matter, I simply explain a situation for both parties involved and I still get a response like this.
It is misdirection. What I'd like to know is, if these events are not the proper time and place to protest, then where exactly is the proper time and place?
Prophet Steve
Member
Apparently it got quiet after that and there was only one arrest.
The article is pretty unclear though about why there were so many arrests. Apparently there was unrest after the parade was over.
I assume the unrest was because of the two parties.
But the local government did not assign them the spot because of the other party.
In Amsterdam they were assigned a spot next to the parade a few hours before it started, it went pretty well. In Gouda they had a place next to the station, but they decided to go to the parade while there also was a different group active.
People that understand what racism actually means.
Offensive? Perhaps. Racist? Not necessarily.
In court, like they were doing before? Or at the exact place they were given as is customary for big protests?
yeh I have a mate called Black Pete and he agrees that this is the true sequence of events
You stop.
Union Carbine
Member
Protests often have to bend or break rules just to happen-- it's part of being a protest.
Raven Prime
Member
I don't think the protesters can be in the wrong since they peacefully protested a societal wrong. There are some conflicting reports of what exactly happened. But I also read today that the police actively warned one of the activits to not demonstrate, which in my mind seems like a intimidation. Even when many reports say that the pro ZP activists started the turmoil, most anti ZP protesters got arrested. So I'm not so sure how unbiased the police and government were. Fact of the matter is that local goverments structurally ignore the problem with Zwarte Piet and the sentiments of 'minorities'.
Indeed it seems the report was primarily about the Dutch government, but I also found this remark when discussing the treatment of minorities by the police: - http://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2013/10/20/ombudsman-nederlandse-politiek-is-racistisch/
I just think it's wrong to act like the protesters are the problem, while we have such a blatant racist celebration going on. Everyone can see it, except for those that are affected with cognitive dissonance because of proximity and nostalgia.
User 73706
Banned
Yeah, yelling at kids is never a good thing, but at the same time "you protestors did a bad thing, therefore all your motives are invalidated, try again next year" isn't too great a stance by people pro-Zwarte Piet.
If you want to protest at a parade which was organized for kids - go ahead, that is your right and as I have already said, protesting against Zwarte Piet is absolutely 100% justified. However, in my opinion, you may think otherwise and I respect that, it will have little effect on the kids' mindset and will just make your cause come off as unsympathetic.
No, it isn't. In most civilized countries, you can actually get licenses to protest. It is a way for the government to let people express their problems without disturbing the public peace too much and to make sure everything can happen in civilized manners.
Please stop.
What do you two think the end result of this back and forth is likely to be?
sadly, the entire country seems oblivious to the problem. There's already millions of people that signed a "pro black Pete" petition. Including tons of people around me. I tried to discuss it with some friends, but they concluded that the people complaining were just very insecure about themselves and that's the real issue.
Also, check this gem. Our prime minister talking about the issue:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fk2YkZ2gGDI
Also, check this gem. Our prime minister talking about the issue:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fk2YkZ2gGDI
Union Carbine
Member
Yes, you can do all that and a lot of times what you end up with is protests that nobody sees or hears about because they get effectively shelved away by the establishment. This is exactly why sometimes protest groups, despite having these sanctioned methods, go outside those bounds.
Over here you don't have to break rules to protest against something. As was also the case this time. The protestors got a desginated area for them to hold their protest which was for obvious reasons away from the festivities. As said multiple times before in this thread. So there's really no excuse for the protestors to show up anyways. And everyone could have known beforehand that if they decide to show up other people will react to it. Murphy's law.
Prophet Steve
Member
I don't know how often I'll have to repeat this, so I'll just link it:
http://www.ad.nl/ad/nl/1012/Nederland/article/detail/3790473/2014/11/14/Kick-Out-Zwarte-Piet-Kom-protesteren-bij-intocht-Gouda.dhtml
Last paragraph:
"Mayor Milo Schoenmaker tells that there actually is space for protests in the city. "The anti-pieten get a spot at the "Huis van de Stad" behind the station, the pro-pieten at the Schouwburgplein. There they have a event, where they also paint children. It is not more than logical that during a children festival these two polarizing parties are separated from each other."
And before the protest started the protesters called for going to the festival anyway. I get that they need to protest and I get that there will be more exposure. But they have been given a very valid reason for not going there, and they did anyway. And exactly the thing that the local government was afraid of is what happened.
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