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[Raven Prime]

They're children for fuck's sake. Sinterklaas is one of the most wonderful times of the year to them. They don't even associatie Zwarte Piet with black people, let alone racism. and most of them like Zwarte Piet even more than they do Sinterklaas. You don't go and tell children 'YOU CANT LIKE ZWARTE PIET!' just because some grownups are having a discussion on whether he is a racist stereotype or not. That is not an issue five year olds should have to deal with.

Their ignorance doesn't make the practice of exposing them to racist caricatures right.
It's not like they won't grow up and those memories will just disappear. By then the implicit otherization will be engrained by years of exposure to the same racist parade.

 

[PopeReal]

Screaming 'Sinterklaas is racist' in kids' faces instead of finding a long term cultural solution surely will though.

Show me where I said that anyone should scream in kids faces?

I think we are arguing two different things. I just think protesting at these events is appropriate. You can protest without yelling at kids.

 

[Zamorro]

Screaming 'Sinterklaas is racist' in kids' faces instead of finding a long term cultural solution surely will though.

When and where did this happen? I have only seen silent protest.

 

[Prophet Steve]

When and where did this happen? I have only seen silent protest.

There were 30 arrested for disturbing public order, I doubt it was only silent protest.

 

[Linius]

When and where did this happen? I have only seen silent protest.

This happened at the protest in Gouda. We have one place where the main Sinterklaas guy arrives each years and where the media films the whole thing. This year that was Gouda. And in Gouda they had pointed out certain areas where it was okay to protest. Despite that people came all the way to where Sinterklaas was and the children were and started not so silently protesting there with the kids present. Why do you think 90 people were arrested? Not because they protested silently according to the given rules.

 

[Bricky]

When and where did this happen? I have only seen silent protest.

Show me where I said that anyone should scream in kids faces?

I think we are arguing two different things. I just think protesting at these events is appropriate. You can protest without yelling at kids.

There is a reason this thread is called 'Zwarte Piet' Controversy Leads To 90 Arrests In Netherlands. The whole point is that these people didn't silently protest. Read the OP.

 

[Zamorro]

There were 30 arrested for disturbing public order, I doubt it was only silent protest.

They were preventively arrested because they were in the wrong spot, not because they were disturbing public order. They didn't even get the chance to protest.

 

[Linius]

They were preventively arrested because they were in the wrong spot, not because they were disturbing public order. They didn't even get the chance to protest.

About 60 protesters were arrested because they did not demonstrate in a previously designated area to vent their anger and were fined 220 euros ($275.) The remaining 30 were arrested for disturbing public order.

It's right there in the OP man.

 

[Raven Prime]

Screaming 'Sinterklaas is racist' in kids' faces instead of finding a long term cultural solution surely will though.

In reality noone does that though. In fact what happened in Gouda was that the anti Zwarte Piet protest was being provoked by racist pro ZP figures that even included some Neo-Nazi scum. They started chanting and then the Police started to arrest pretty much all the anti-ZP protesters, I'm not so sure if they arrested all the pro ZP protesters. Regardless, according to the media, most people were focused on the stage where Sinterklaas was, but when the police started making arrests after the pro ZP provocations, then everyone started to pay attention because of the chaos that ensued. As far as I can tell most if not all anti-ZP protesters went to Gouda with the intention of a peaceful protest. However certain groups and media like PowNed are doing anything to trivialize and even escalate the issue.

 

[Bricky]

They were preventively arrested because they were in the wrong spot, not because they were disturbing public order. They didn't even get the chance to protest.

The remaining 30 were arrested for disturbing public order.

This stuff is literally in the OP. I could even give you video footage of protestors being dragged away by police while children are welcoming Sinterklaas but a few meters away.

Don't make stuff up to make a point.

 

[Prophet Steve]

They were preventively arrested because they were in the wrong spot, not because they were disturbing public order. They didn't even get the chance to protest.

Like others said, it is right there in the OP.

They had a different spot to protest anyway.

In reality noone does that though. In fact what happened in Gouda was that the anti Zwarte Piet protest was being provoked by racist pro ZP figures that even included some Neo-Nazi scum. They started chanting and then the Police started to arrest pretty much all the anti-ZP protesters, I'm not so sure if they arrested all the pro ZP protesters. Regardless, according to the media, most people were focused on the stage where Sinterklaas was, but when the police started making arrests after the pro ZP provocations, then everyone started to pay attention because of the chaos that ensued. As far as I can tell most if not all anti-ZP protesters went to Gouda with the intention of a peaceful protest. However certain groups and media like PowNed are doing anything to trivialize and even escalate the issue.

And this is exactly why the local government told them to not protest at the parade but at their designated spot.

 

[Zamorro]

This stuff is literally in the OP. I could even give you video footage of protestors being dragged away by police while children are welcoming Sinterklaas but a few meters away.

Don't make stuff up to make a point.

Yeah. They were silently protesting and the police made a big spectacle about dragging these people away.

 

[Creamium]

Especially for Americans this must be so blatantly obviously racism, it's kinda embarrassing for people who are aware of international sensitivities, yet their own country is completely oblivious (like me, I'm Belgian).

The vast majority of dutch/belgian people simply don't see the skin color as an issue. I'd say that makes it more ignorant than racist. I as well just grew up with the idea of an old fart in a saints suit coming once a year to give presents to children, helped by a bunch of black guys in weird outfits entertaining the kids and giving out candy. I think, hope, that this tradition hasn't affected my attitude or underlying feelings towards black people. Hell, there is this popular tv show about Sinterklaas and Piet where Sinterklaas is basically a grumpy, childish, senile man, whereas Piet is lively, lovely, has a sense of humor, is smart, ...


But still, if you take a look back at the tradition, I mean...come on. It's racist as fuck. Old man with black helpers. Just change the damn tradition already: give the Pieten all colors of the rainbow for all I care, or just don't paint the faces, but just change it already because the racist aspect is clear, and it's upsetting quite a lot of people.

The Sinterklaas tradition has been changed a lot throughout the decades anyway. It's always happened organically/spontaneous. It's just that now some people want to force a change (rightfully so), that there's a vocal opposition against it (not surprisingly).

As a Belgian, this is pretty much exactly how I see things. It's frustrating though, because yes, most people are ignorant and consider the racist issue as exaggerated or blown out of proportion. Most people can't see why there's a big fuss over this everywhere else in the world. They just can't see this from the right distance.

Biggest argument always is the soot: "They're not black, it's soot! Their lips are red because Piet fell down the chimney and chafed his lips". There are people who really cling to this as an explanation, unbelievable.

Most people I meet won't even discuss this though, they just think it's ridiculous there's such a fuss over this.

 

[Prophet Steve]

Yeah. They were silently protesting and the police made a big spectacle about dragging these people away.

You are really going to need some serious backup sources here.

 

[Malyse]

You know nothing about me, you made a stupid assumption.
I didn't answer because I was intrigued by your implication. An implication you've confirmed with your post (you can't be black, because a black person must be offended).
I, and many others, don't care, simply because we don't care. If the gov wants to change it then go ahead, if they don't want to it's whatever.

Assuming things is bad mkay?

Spoiler

I'm black

I said usually. I mean, Stacey Dash works for Fox News and the KKK thread was quick to point out black supporters of the organization. Not hard to be "one of the good ones".

 

[Linius]

Yeah. They were silently protesting and the police made a big spectacle about dragging these people away.

You're now just bending actual facts in your favour. That's not how you debate.

 

[Raven Prime]

And this is exactly why the local government told them to not protest at the parade but at their designated spot.

Yeah protest the racist parade where noone will pay attention to it. Nowadays the debate is being held almost all year, it's being brought to courts etc.
But the majority of the Dutch keep laughing it away, however it can't be neglected nor ridiculized. Change is going to come, and things are changing already. But people can't stop protesting social injustice and must make themselves heard. Even if that means resisting and ignoring instructions from local government. To protest social injustice is a civil right.

 

[Kinyou]

They were preventively arrested because they were in the wrong spot, not because they were disturbing public order. They didn't even get the chance to protest.

The article actually makes a distinction

About 60 protesters were arrested because they did not demonstrate in a previously designated area to vent their anger and were fined 220 euros ($275.) The remaining 30 were arrested for disturbing public order.

 

[Bricky]

Their ignorance doesn't make the practice of exposing them to racist caricatures right.

Even if that is the case it isn't the children you should change, it's the tradition itself. No reason to ruin one of the happiest times of the year for them by asking them the difficult questions. Like I said; they don't see Zwarte Piet as silly black people, children see Zwarte Piet as Zwarte Piet. Forcing them to see that it is racism doesn't change anything. It isn't turning them into little racists when they don't know about this entire discussion.

Yeah. They were silently protesting and the police made a big spectacle about dragging these people away.

They made that spectacle themselves since they forced the police to forcefully remove them. They weren't protesting in the right spot and refused to leave even when asked to do so multiple times by the police. They were only forced away last-minute when Sinterklaas arrived and they still wouldn't leave by themselves.

This isn't America, the police are very gentle here unless you completely refuse cooperation which these people did.

 

[Raven Prime]

As a Belgian, this is pretty much exactly how I see things. It's frustrating though, because yes, most people are ignorant and consider the racist issue as exaggerated or blown out of proportion. Most people can't see why there's a big fuss over this everywhere else in the world. They just can't see this from the right distance.

Biggest argument always is the soot: "They're not black, it's soot! Their lips are red because Piet fell down the chimney and chafed his lips". There are people who really cling to this as an explanation, unbelievable.

Most people I meet won't even discuss this though, they just think it's ridiculous there's such a fuss over this.

Because in contrary to the Netherlands the soot and chimney narrative has been promoted in Belgium for many years now, including by the media. However that changes nothing about the inherent racist colonial caricature, which in fact was transmitted from the Netherlands to Belgium. You can retcon the story, but the underlying offensiveness won't just go away until you actually change that too.

 

[Prophet Steve]

Yeah protest the racist parade where noone will pay attention to it. Nowadays the debate is being held almost all year, it's being brought to courts etc.
But the majority of the Dutch keep laughing it away, however it can't be neglected nor ridiculized. Change is going to come, and things are changing already. But people can't stop protesting social injustic and must make themselves hear. Even if that means resisting and ignoring instructions from local government. To protest social injustice is a civil right.

Why are you assuming that? They didn't get put in the middle of nowhere, and neither was that the case in Amsterdam.

There also has been a lot of media attention before the parade in The Netherlands. There are a lot of people ignoring them, but it isn't because they have a lack of voice.

 

[PopeReal]

Even if that is the case it isn't the children you should change, it's the tradition itself. No reason to ruin one of the happiest times of the year for them by asking them the difficult questions. Like I said; they don't see Zwarte Piet as silly black people, children see Zwarte Piet as Zwarte Piet. Forcing them to see that it is racism doesn't change anything. It isn't turning them into little racists when they don't know about this entire discussion.

So don't protest the event at the event? Sorry I just don't understand this argument.

 

[Raven Prime]

Even if that is the case it isn't the children you should change, it's the tradition itself. No reason to ruin one of the happiest times of the year for them by asking them the difficult questions. Like I said; they don't see Zwarte Piet as silly black people, children see Zwarte Piet as Zwarte Piet. Forcing them to see that it is racism doesn't change anything. It isn't turning them into little racists when they don't know about this entire discussion.

Noone is asking the children difficult questions. People are protesting Zwarte Piet period.
And perhaps they won't turn in little racists, but again they will turn into adults that have internalized this otherization ritual. And it's not like lot's of schoolchildren are harassing dark skinned children by calling them Black Pete, aren't they?
Or the fact that many dark skinned children can't even consider Sinterklaas the 'happiest' time of the year. Check your privilege, bro.

 

[Akainu]

Is it that time of the year again? I see a few bans on the first page. From this thread I'm sure.

 

[Raven Prime]

Why are you assuming that? They didn't get put in the middle of nowhere, and neither was that the case in Amsterdam.

There also has been a lot of media attention before the parade in The Netherlands. There are a lot of people ignoring them, but it isn't because they have a lack of voice.

I've actually seen the dedicated protest spots, and they were far away from the actual celebration. The majority of the Dutch are ignoring this problem or aren't even acknowledging it. I believe it really has to be protested when and wherever, as much as possible.
And children aren't being the victims of protests they are being victims of institutional racism.

It has already been quoted here before but it's amazing how relevant this quote by MLK still is right now

Over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action”; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a “more convenient season.” - Martin Luther King Jr.

 

[Zamorro]

The article actually makes a distinction

I can only comment on what I saw on TV, which was people wearing t-shirts that protested against Zwarte Piet. If thirty people were arrested for disturbing public order, I didn't see it.

 

[Union Carbine]

This is what happened last year:

http://www.iamexpat.nl/read-and-dis...s-investigates-zwarte-piet-racism-netherlands

Even the United Nations got involved with it....

From that piece:

Earlier this year, a survey was conducted to reveal how Amsterdammers felt about Zwarte Piet, showing that 27 per cent of Surinamese and 18 per cent of Antilleans felt it was discriminatory towards them, while 58 per cent of Moroccans felt it discriminated towards others.

 

[Prophet Steve]

I've actually seen the dedicated protest spots, and they were far away from the actual celebration. The majority of the Dutch are ignoring this problem or aren't even acknowledging it. I believe it really has to be protested when and wherever, as much as possible.
And children aren't being the victims of protests they are being victims of institutional racism.

It has already been quoted here before but it's amazing how relevant this quote by MLK still is right now

In Amsterdam it wasn't, just on a different time.

And no, there really has been plenty of attention here before the actual celebrations.

Not allowing them to protest in Gouda near the parade was the right thing to do because of this exact outcome. They got into contact with pro-pieten supporters and it resulted in arrests at a children festival, a thing that local governments like to try to avoid.

What else would you expect local governments to do?

 

[Nozem]

A good example is the fact on how easily the word "neger" (this of course means nigger, don't believe the people who tell you otherwise, nobody says "nikker" anymore) gets thrown around, no matter where you're from - if you're brown you're a "nigger"
While they don't want to hurt you by saying this they can't understand why you get mad when they call you like that because they think calling someone a nigger is perfectly normal and not an insult.

Hmm, this is not true in my experience. There is definitely a difference between neger en nikker. Besides, I more often hear 'zwarte' than 'neger' used in a degoratory way.

 

[Raven Prime]

In Amsterdam it wasn't, just on a different time.

And no, there really has been plenty of attention here before the actual celebrations.

Not allowing them to protest in Gouda near the parade was the right thing to do because of this exact outcome. They got into contact with pro-pieten supporters and it resulted in arrests at a children festival, a thing that local governments like to try to avoid.

What else would you expect local governments to do?

To ban or alter the racist elements of the Sinterklaas tradition, what else? This should be a real no-brainer.

 

[Raven Prime]

They made that spectacle themselves since they forced the police to forcefully remove them. They weren't protesting in the right spot and refused to leave even when asked to do so multiple times by the police. They were only forced away last-minute when Sinterklaas arrived and they still wouldn't leave by themselves.

This isn't America, the police are very gentle here unless you completely refuse cooperation which these people did.

It's amazing how out of touch a lot of Dutch people are with the actual reality of what happens in the Netherlands. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tt7F5No0p24

 

[Raven Prime]

Hmm, this is not true in my experience. There is definitely a difference between neger en nikker. Besides, I more often hear 'zwarte' than 'neger' used in a degoratory way.

There is a perceived difference. But as you say you hear the term 'zwarte' being used in a derogatory way. I would claim there is an inherent derogatory component to all those 3 terms in the ways they are being used.

 

[Linius]

Raven Prime, I'd try editing your post next time

And how to call a black person is always a tricky topic. For some reason I always try try to avoid in conversation. Though I think 'donkere' would probably be the most correct one if said in a respectful manner. That's also what they usually go with in 'Opsporing Verzocht' iirc.

 

[Raven Prime]

Raven Prime, I'd try editing your post next time

And how to call a black person is always a tricky topic. For some reason I always try try to avoid in conversation. Though I think 'donkere' would probably be the most correct one if said in a respectful manner. That's also what they usually go with in 'Opsporing Verzocht' iirc.

I agree I'd go with terms like donker or dark skinned. But what about my posts? I've made a few typo's and some got quoted. But what exactly did you mean?

Edit: Or did you simply mean I made 3 comments in a row? Yeah this topic moved a bit faster before, it slowed down now. So I guess I could have combined them into one post.

 

[besada]

There is a perceived difference. But as you say you hear the term 'zwarte' being used in a derogatory way. I would claim there is an inherent derogatory component to all those 3 terms in the ways they are being used.

The + sign next to quote allows you to multi-quote. Click it for each post you'd like to quote, and then when you reply, it will list the various quotes in order. This will save you from posting multiple times in a row.

 

[Linius]

I agree I'd go with terms like donker or dark skinned. But what about my posts? I've made a few typo's and some got quoted. But what exactly did you mean?

You posted three seperate posts in a row. It's an unwritten message board rule that it's better to just edit your post if no one else is posting instead of spamming the thread. That's also why there's the multi quote button. The little '+' next to posts. Just a tip.

 

[SgtCobra]

Hmm, this is not true in my experience. There is definitely a difference between neger en nikker. Besides, I more often hear 'zwarte' than 'neger' used in a degoratory way.

In my experience it is. I'm the one being called a nigger, I barely hear people say "zwarte" but nigger? Oh I hear it on a daily basis (although it's almost never towards me anymore).

And while I agree on the fact that most of the times it isn't used in a degoratory way I still find it very insulting. I'm 75% Italian (but colored yes) and can't comprehend on how people can be so backwards, it really saddens me how such an intelligent country can contain that many stupid people. No matter the color, you don't fucking call anyone a nigger, end of the story. Last week I was making fun of a new co-worker making a mess (just a friendly jab) and he replied with: yeah but you're black. What the fuck? How am I supposed to feel? Insulted? I don't know, what I most definitely know is that he was dead serious.
"Zwarte" is an adjective that's why you may hear it more often in a degoratory way as people can insult someone easier using that word, so I can understand what you're trying to say.

 

[Raven Prime]

The + sign next to quote allows you to multi-quote. Click it for each post you'd like to quote, and then when you reply, it will list the various quotes in order. This will save you from posting multiple times in a row.

You posted three seperate posts in a row. It's an unwritten message board rule that it's better to just edit your post if no one else is posting instead of spamming the thread. That's also why there's the multi quote button. The little '+' next to posts. Just a tip.

I know guys, I actually multi-quoted in my first post in this topic. I've edited my previous post and tried to clarify what happened. But thanks for pointing it out, I will try to keep my comments from piling up on each other.

In my experience it is. I'm the one being called a nigger, I barely hear people say "zwarte" but nigger? Oh I hear it on a daily basis (although it's almost never towards me anymore).

And while I agree on the fact that most of the times it isn't used in a degoratory way I still find it very insulting. I'm 75% Italian (but colored yes) and can't comprehend on how people can be so backwards, it really saddens me how such an intelligent country can contain that many stupid people. No matyer the color, you don't fucking call anyone a nigger. Last week I was making fun of a new co-worker making a mess (just a friendly jab) and he replied with: yeah but you're black. What the fuck? How am I supposed to feel? Insulted? I don't know, what I most definitely know is that he was dead serious.
"Zwarte" is an adjective that's why you may hear it more often in a degoratory way as people can insult someone easier using that word, so I can understand what you're trying to say.

It's like how Obama is called America's first black president. I have actually debated that problem before her on NeoGAF. I guess in America it's even worse because they have historic precedents like the "One drop rule". Plus in English as in Dutch the term 'black'/'zwart' is not only used to descibe someone's skincolor, but also their perceived etnicity. Whilst in reality ofcourse noone actually has a 100% black skintone, people have very dark or deep brown skintones. Nor are they from an ethnic homogeneous background, in most cases the most accurate thing you can say is that they are of Sub Saharan African decent, which of course is a very wide claim.

 

[Prophet Steve]

To ban or alter the racist elements of the Sinterklaas tradition, what else? This should be a real no-brainer.

I am talking about in regards to the protests what we were talking about. The protesters were in the wrong here. I don't see how that can be disputed when with a thread title like this, things clearly went wrong.

It's amazing how out of touch a lot of Dutch people are with the actual reality of what happens in the Netherlands. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tt7F5No0p24

An independent party released a report in July this year about allegations in this area. Results were that there is no structural discrimination by the police. Police uses violence more often in these areas, but there is also more criminality and more hostility towards the police. It is added that there are individual cases where there is too much violence.

 

[Bricky]

So don't protest the event at the event? Sorry I just don't understand this argument.

Don't protest in the middle the children who are just trying to have a good time. You can of course protest at the event and there were special locations appointed for this very close to the main event (just not in the middle of the festivities).

Noone is asking the children difficult questions. People are protesting Zwarte Piet period.

I know, but I thought you yourself implied that we should. If that isn't the case, I misunderstood you.

And perhaps they won't turn in little racists, but again they will turn into adults that have internalized this otherization ritual. And it's not like lot's of schoolchildren are harassing dark skinned children by calling them Black Pete, aren't they?

I've always disliked that argument. Bullies are going to bully anyway. I'm a redhead. Should we change the color of light emitting from lighthouses to blue just because some people called me 'lighthouse' when I was younger? No, they'd just use some other word to make fun of me. That doesn't solve anything.

Or the fact that many dark skinned children can't even consider Sinterklaas the 'happiest' time of the year. Check your privilege, bro.

The majority of dark skinned children celebrate and enjoy it as much as everyone else. Zwarte Piet isn't someone who makes fun of black people, Zwarte Piet is someone all kids, no matter what skin color, idolize and love.

How can I be sure? Am I not just white and ignorant of reality and racism? Perhaps, but you can't act like a majority of black skinned children has problems with the holiday either. Especially if you haven't experienced Sinterklaas yourself.

It's amazing how out of touch a lot of Dutch people are with the actual reality of what happens in the Netherlands. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tt7F5No0p24

It's amazing how you think one incident makes police brutality an issue in all of the Netherlands. It really isn't. In fact, they're often criticised for the fact they don't show enough authority. Alot of people ridicule instead of respect them because of that.

 

[Lime]

It's nice being equipped to discuss structural racism, but dealing with it is another thing - something that the US is as bad at as European countries

Yeah and that's why I think European nations are uneducated and inexperienced when it comes to their own racist beliefs and systems. Just look at how Europeans approach "Muslims" or "immigrants" in using dog whistle speech to talk about Brown people.

Instead of asking rhetorical questions to GAF about "How is this racist?", would it not be more productive to ask your own countrymen & women of color why they are protesting?

This is what national media in many European countries fail to do. E.g. they go out and ask some White Dude whether or not the a specific racial slur aimed at non-Whites is racist. And the answer is always so predictable (i.e. White guy doesn't think the slur is racist)

Sorry, but that's wrong.
That's exactly what comes up when serious discussion over the topics are on any media or any other type of serious discussions.

Obviously I am not familiar with every single discussion on racism in Europe - you may have different experiences than me in what particular country? But I have followed and seen several national instances in France, Switzerland, Denmark, Germany, Poland, and Holland, where the national discourse completely fails to incorporate the language and knowledge on how to approach and address structural oppression and racism. It's worse/better from country to country (Denmark is fucking terrible, it borders on explicit 1800's racism sanctioned by the government and the media and legitimized by the public.

And how exactly would you know which words are used or not in those countries? That seems like quite a deep insight.

Again, it's not about the existence of words. It's about being equipped to have the proper conversation with the proper equality and respect towards the ones living under the oppression. E.g. of course you're not going to get anywhere productive if national media institutions don't understand why some White dude might not necessarily have the experience and insight into what makes the candy called "Negro Kiss" or "Negro Bun" offensive. Yet they keep putting that guy into their studio or on the radio, etc. There are so many complexities lost whenever some European countries try to discuss racism nationally.

 

[methane47]

The First page of this thread is a graveyard lol

 

[TheContact]

Never understood this blackface thing. I know it's in their culture and they've been doing it for a while but the shit needs to stop. Incredibly offensive.

 

[Zamorro]

I am talking about in regards to the protests what we were talking about. The protesters were in the wrong here. I don't see how that can be disputed when with a thread title like this, things clearly went wrong.

But were protesters screaming in kid's faces like the poster at the top of the page said? I have not seen any proof of that anywhere.

 

[Prophet Steve]

But were protesters screaming in kid's faces like the poster at the top of the page said? I have not seen any proof of that anywhere.

No, and I don't see how that is relevant to what I am talking about with the other person.

But frankly, you are very tiresome to discuss with with the twisting of facts a few posts back and now talking about something where I am not talking about.

 

[ape2man]

I wonder what the N stands for

Nicolaas, from Sint Nicolaas. or Saint Nicolas

 

[Raven Prime]

I am talking about in regards to the protests what we were talking about. The protesters were in the wrong here. I don't see how that can be disputed when with a thread title like this, things clearly went wrong.

Again who is wrong in the end? The local government for permitting a parade with racist elements or the societal movement that is protesting these racist elements during their presentation?

An independent party released a report in July this year about allegations in this area. Results were that there is no structural discrimination by the police. Police uses violence more often in these areas, but there is also more criminality and more hostility towards the police. It is added that there are individual cases where there is too much violence.

It's amazing how you think one incident makes police brutality an issue in all of the Netherlands. It really isn't. In fact, they're often criticised for the fact they don't show enough authority. Alot of people ridicule instead of respect them because of that.

I don't think it's an incident at all. The Dutch Ombudsman declared last year that there is a structural problem with racism in the Netherlands and if I remember correctly he also implicated the Dutch police. Besides that in this case the brutality was caught on camera, and I tend to assume that for every recorded fact there are many more that go unrecorded. Regarding the racial profiling I already posted another video here earlier on that documented what actually happens in the Netherlands.

 

[poppabk]

So just make that shit modern. Make it so everyone can enjoy it. I don't see why it's hard to recognize that how it's currently being celebrated, it's offensive and makes certain people feel excluded. This picture I think, is at least some example of trying to make it more inclusive (or taking out the more offensive aspect). I guess the whole "Pete" character might have some issues, given its history. But at least, this is a step in the right direction.

This is possibly one of the reasons that people don't want to just modernize the look of 'piet' because they perceive it as the thin edge of the wedge.

 

[Zamorro]

No, and I don't see how that is relevant to what I am talking about with the other person.

But frankly, you are very tiresome to discuss with with the twisting of facts a few posts back and now talking about something where I am not talking about.

You have been declared the moderator of this topic? Guess I missed the memo. Excuse me very much.

Carry on.

 

[methane47]

No, and I don't see how that is relevant to what I am talking about with the other person.

But frankly, you are very tiresome to discuss with with the twisting of facts a few posts back and now talking about something where I am not talking about.

Hmm i don't know man, many people are spreading stories about this how the protesters were screaming at kids.

My gf is dutch and told me the same thing. She said a report talked about how the kids were scared because they were screaming in their faces.

Then I asked her a couple times
Me: The Report said the anti pieten protesters were screaming at kids?
Her: Umm i think it said something about the protesters screaming and the kids being in fear

Me: Again, did the report say that the anti-piet protesters were screaming at kids?
Her: ummm no... but WHY DO they have to do these things in front of kids.

Me: So they should protest alone in a basement?

Things are already heated enough, its totally irresponsible for some people to paint a worse picture than whats actually occurring.