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[Dascu]

I can understand that. But I just think, you should at least hear people out that are being hurt by it. And try to understand where they are coming from. I don't get why they can't preserve the holiday but just make changes so everyone can be included and no one feels hurt.

Yeah, definitely. The holiday should be something all kids can enjoy, and it'd be a shame if consciously or subconsciously, there is hurtful discrimination.

The problem is people get the impression that they should should feel bad for having enjoyed Sinterklaas and Zwarte Piet, for a racial association that is completely foreign and alien to them. It's the difference between saying "This is wrong and this is how it can be changed" and "This is wrong and you should feel bad". This entire discussion, to the average listener, sounds like the latter. And this is explaining the backlash or reluctance for change, not justifying it.

 

[Baconsaurus Rex]

"Zwarte Piet controversy leads to 90 bans in Neogaf"




Isn't this like the perfect solution?

The caricature of black people is obvious. I can understand the defensiveness behind it, since no one likes to be told their cherished childhood tradition has a offensive-racist content. But well, traditions evolve and get adjusted to the current historical context all the time, the Zwarte tradition should too.

Problem could be that most Zwarte Pieten are volunteers and known to the children, especially in smaller communities. Kids might recognise them.

 

[Lime]

I must have missed something, but would you care to elaborate which terms are actually missing within the German vocubalury ?

Ehm, what are you basing this on? Those words aren't neologisms, they're easily translatable. And a quick google search for "Passiver Rassismus" (German for passive racism) reveals that it's very much used in discussions. The same goes for France or Poland.

You are both misinterpreting what I mean by vocabulary. I am not referring to actual words existing or not, as you can easily find the linguistic translations of American-English words to e.g. German or French or Polish. What I mean by vocabulary is the people, the institutions, the media, the politicans, etc. (i.e. all actors and stakeholders within the context of the discourse) simply not being able to address what is going on when dealing with topics of discrimination/oppression, because they/we are not equipped or they/we have not learned how structural oppression and discrimination work. So it's not about the existence of words, but the usage, the equipment, and the learning of the words associated with structural racism in Europe.

 

[Fallout-NL]

Problem could be that most Zwarte Pieten are volunteers and known to the children, especially in smaller communities. Kids might recognise them.

Does that, in any way, seem like a valid reason to perpetuate a racist tradition?

 

[Valhelm]

Isn't this like the perfect solution?

The caricature of black people is obvious. I can understand the defensiveness behind it, since no one likes to be told their cherished childhood tradition has a offensive-racist content. But well, traditions evolve and get adjusted to the current historical context all the time, the Zwarte tradition should too.

This could totally work! Cultural traditions change all the time. We like to think that stories about Holidays go back to time immemorial, but most Christmas traditions came about in the last few centuries.

Explicating that Zwarte Piet is a person with soot on their face, as opposed to using soot as an excuse to do a blackface caricature, is a really good idea.

 

[Baconsaurus Rex]

Does that, in any way, seem like a valid reason to perpetuate a racist tradition?

Not what I was saying. Black face has to go, but I don't like that particular alternative.

 

[lord quas]

You are both misinterpreting what I mean by vocabulary. I am not referring to actual words existing or not, as you can easily find the linguistic translations of American-English words to e.g. German or French or Polish. What I mean by vocabulary is the people, the institutions, the media, the politicans, etc. (i.e. all actors and stakeholders within the context of the discourse) simply not being able to talk about it, because they are not equipped or they have not learned how structural oppression and discrimination work. So it's not about the existence of words, but the usage, the equipment, and the learning of the words associated with structural racism in Europe.

It's nice being equipped to discuss structural racism, but dealing with it is another thing - something that the US is as bad at as European countries

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

Instead of asking rhetorical questions to GAF about "How is this racist?", would it not be more productive to ask your own countrymen & women of color why they are protesting?

 

[Cat Party]

Problem could be that most Zwarte Pieten are volunteers and known to the children, especially in smaller communities. Kids might recognise them.

Truly an unsolvable problem.

 

[Deleted member 1235]

I'm not sure how anybody could consider that not racist.

Here is my go at it,

zwarte piet is a racist caricature, or at least was that dutch people that celebrate it enjoy without racist intention.

Living here as an expat, it doesn't bother me, but fuck me if i'm dressing up like that, neither will my kids.

It will go away eventually, 8 years ago when I got here, I never heard a word about it, criticism is mounting quickly now though.
the 'rainbow piet' seems like the best solution, but does that mean the black one should be outright banned? I dunno. I really don't know. I don't think Americans can really be that rational about this either. seems like a politics argument.

I half want to knee jerk reaction and scream 'piss off it's not racist' but that wouldn't be fair, because it would be just reacting to how retardedly politically correct everything has gotten in the last 5 years on every stupid subject. See guy wearing lame shirt as a scientist for dumb shit that irritates me no end.

 

[Prophet Steve]

Truly an unsolvable problem.

He is answering why that wouldn't be an perfect solution, stop being a smartass.

 

[Bricky]

Ah, there it is. Took a while for the annual Zwarte Piet thread to show up. I expected it a bit earlier though now that shit is really hitting the fan.

First of all; to people saying 'why don't they change it already' realise that that is exactly what is happening this year. There is a TV program called 'The Sinterklaasnewscast' that reports the 'official' story about what happens to Sinterklaas and his Pieten each year which is usually what schools and parents follow with their children. All but one of the old 'racist' version of Zwarte Piet stayed in Spain because they thought the boat they always use to get to Holland was gonna sink (yeah, the story is usually pretty silly, don't forget that it's a holiday for children).

Every Piet (they don't even mention the 'Zwarte' anymore) in the Netherlands at the moment are people who went through a chimney about a hundred times to look like a Piet and, as reported in the OP, some even put on silly make-up to look like Stroopwafels and Gouda Cheese (because the big arrival of the Sint was in Gouda this year). In fact, they actually showed how the white guy in this picture below became a 'Zwarte Piet'.

Of course you can't just make them all not-black without any explanation, but the racist aspect of the tradition (wheter you think that is the case or not) is being phased out.

Personally I still think the whole discussion is a bit silly. The biggest problem is that there are extremists on both sides of the discussion that make everyone look bad. You have some actual racists telling the protesters to go back to their own country, but then there are these unreasonable protesters who have to go and traumatize children by protesting in the middle of the whole celebration. You don't go and yell 'SANTA ISN'T REAL' to young kids sitting on his lap in the mall either. A big reason many people don't want to change Zwarte Piet is because it feels like giving in to a small group of vocal assholes, not because they think children would be absolutely traumatized if they saw a Pink, Red or Blue Piet.

 

[Mononoke]

And this is why I like you.

It just, always bugs me when people won't even listen. We've had issues of sexism come up on this board before, and you will have female posters (or people off site) trying to explain why something is offensive or hurts them. And sometimes people don't want to hear it.

Have some empathy. At least hear someone out, and understand why they are being hurt. I understand that not everyone will always agree on these issues 100%. But at the very least, you can try to understand where someone else is coming from. I dunno, maybe it's just me, but I always think it's important to step outside yourself, and consider that, maybe what you want, isn't worth it if it excludes others or hurts them. If you actually take the time to consider what someone else might be going through.

I just wish more people would do this. It's not that hard, and we would all be better off if we just listened and had empathy for what other people are going through. It's not always a "muh rights" thing. People just want to be able enjoy life the way you do.

 

[Fallout-NL]

He is answering why that wouldn't be an perfect solution, stop being a smartass.

He's not being a smartass, he's merely pointing out that there are bigger things at stake here. As was I.

 

[Prophet Steve]

He's not being a smartass, he's merely pointing out that there are bigger things at stake here. As was I.

The post he is responding to literally contains:

Isn't this like the perfect solution?

No, it isn't.

But he isn't saying we should then keep it the way as it is.

 

[BlackBuzzard]

Truly an unsolvable problem.

He is saying that the example given doesn't work.

Because usually a family member dresses up Uncle,Niece,Nephew etc. For television its usually actors who also do regular tv shows. So kids would recognize them in a second.

 

[3bdelilah]

I genuinely feel bad for my fellow Dutchmen who actually condone or even approve this kind of stuff. Because without this, they really don't have any culture left whatsoever. It's kind of pathetic, really. I agree it's a children's party nowadays with little to no racism, regardless of skin colour, religion or whatever, but we can't say it wasn't born in racism. And it's even more sad my fellow countrymen actually use the chimney bullshit, come on, man. You don't get red lips and that kind of hair due to chimneys. Kids don't give a fuck if this Pete is black, yellow, green, orange, silver or white; they just want presents. Always has been and always will. I only hear "adults" saying Petes need to be black, I never hear children say stuff like this, unless they've been conditioned by their parents. They don't give a fuck.

 

[IdreamofHIME]

That's some Christmas memory to leave on a lot of kids, yikes.
Protests should always be allowed, but damn....there's a time and a place.

 

[Pennywise]

You are both misinterpreting what I mean by vocabulary. I am not referring to actual words existing or not, as you can easily find the linguistic translations of American-English words to e.g. German or French or Polish. What I mean by vocabulary is the people, the institutions, the media, the politicans, etc. (i.e. all actors and stakeholders within the context of the discourse) simply not being able to address what is going on when dealing with topics of discrimination/oppression, because they/we are not equipped or they/we have not learned how structural oppression and discrimination work. So it's not about the existence of words, but the usage, the equipment, and the learning of the words associated with structural racism in Europe.

Sorry, but that's wrong.
That's exactly what comes up when serious discussion over the topics are on any media or any other type of serious discussions.

 

[maquiladora]

That's some Christmas memory to leave on a lot of kids, yikes.
Protests should always be allowed, but damn....there's a time and a place.

Seems like the absolute best time and place to protest to me.

 

[Fallout-NL]

That's some Christmas memory to leave on a lot of kids, yikes.
Protests should always be allowed, but damn....there's a time and a place.

Bit of a contradiction though, protesting at the neatly appointed time and place. Same bullshit they (i.e. 'the powers that be') pulled last King's day where anti-monarchy protesters were only allowed to voice their dissent in the ass end of nowhere. Ridiculous.

 

[Angelus Errare]

That's some Christmas memory to leave on a lot of kids, yikes.
Protests should always be allowed, but damn....there's a time and a place.

Agreed, they shouldn't be protesting while the festival is going on. Think of the kids, they should protest in like the summer or something…

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

That's some Christmas memory to leave on a lot of kids, yikes.
Protests should always be allowed, but damn....there's a time and a place.

Christmas? That's still well over a month away.

 

[Prophet Steve]

Seems like the absolute best time and place to protest to me.

The one with the most exposure? Sure.

However, you are also with a different protest group that is pro zwarte piet while in an area surrounded by children that are enjoying a parade.

I really think it is okay to sacrifice a bit of exposure for that.

 

[Raven Prime]

Problem could be that most Zwarte Pieten are volunteers and known to the children, especially in smaller communities. Kids might recognise them.

Perceptive children will recognize them anyway, that always happens. They tend to be the older kids that already understand what's happening anyway. The youngest children are easily fooled and are still susceptible to magical thinking, tonnes of studies have shown that already.

Anyway for those that think the recognition problem is more important than the problem of perpetuating racist caricatures, there is a hybrid solution in the blended form of Color&Soot Petes.

 

[Brawndo Addict]

Kids might recognize the person pretending to be Santa or his elves but for some weird reason in America we don't have to slap paint all over their faces to prevent it. How odd.

 

[Busaiku]

You don't go and yell 'SANTA ISN'T REAL' to young kids sitting on his lap in the mall either. A big reason many people don't want to change Zwarte Piet is because it feels like giving in to a small group of vocal assholes, not because they think children would be absolutely traumatized if they saw a Pink, Red or Blue Piet.

This doesn't make any sense.
You shouldn't let kids know that something is racially insensitive? You should let them go on thinking it's ok to keep on doing this?
Violence is one thing, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with vocal protest of something that is offensive.

 

[lord quas]

This doesn't make any sense.
You shouldn't let kids know that something is racially insensitive? You should let them go on thinking it's ok to keep on doing this?
Violence is one thing, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with vocal protest of something that is offensive.

You really think protesting is the best way to educate 6 year old kids?

 

[Chezzymann]

Bullshit. This is from a kid's book on Zwarte Piet :

Oh my, woah.

I wonder what the N stands for

I have to admit I laughed

 

[Linius]

Seems like the absolute best time and place to protest to me.

It's the most disrespectful time and place to have a protest going on. Especially the way they did it. There's no need to yell at innocent children that Sinterklaas doesn't exist or depict them as racists. It's like everyone looks past the fact that a bunch of adults scare children celebrating Sinterklaas because they don't approve of the Zwarte Piet character.

There were designated protest areas for people where they could protest in peace and without distracting the on going festivities. And it's not like they had to be protesting at the actual party to raise awareness. This is an issue that has been discussed every year now for at least the past five years.

 

[Mononoke]

Perceptive children will recognize them anyway, that always happens. They tend to be the older kids that already understand what's happening anyway. The youngest children are easily fooled and are still susceptible to magical thinking, tonnes of studies have shown that already.

Anyway for those that think the recognition problem is more important than the problem of perpetuating racist caricatures, there is a hybrid solution in the blended form of Color&Soot Petes.

I just don't get why, they can't adapt the holiday. I mean, I get tradition and all that. But an educated society, is supposed to recognize when certain things are wrong. We don't hold on to EVERYTHING we did in the past. We move forward. So I get that, people want to keep this holiday going because it's a really enjoyable time of the year.

So just make that shit modern. Make it so everyone can enjoy it. I don't see why it's hard to recognize that how it's currently being celebrated, it's offensive and makes certain people feel excluded. This picture I think, is at least some example of trying to make it more inclusive (or taking out the more offensive aspect). I guess the whole "Pete" character might have some issues, given its history. But at least, this is a step in the right direction.

 

[Kinyou]

You are both misinterpreting what I mean by vocabulary. I am not referring to actual words existing or not, as you can easily find the linguistic translations of American-English words to e.g. German or French or Polish. What I mean by vocabulary is the people, the institutions, the media, the politicans, etc. (i.e. all actors and stakeholders within the context of the discourse) simply not being able to address what is going on when dealing with topics of discrimination/oppression, because they/we are not equipped or they/we have not learned how structural oppression and discrimination work. So it's not about the existence of words, but the usage, the equipment, and the learning of the words associated with structural racism in Europe.

And how exactly would you know which words are used or not in those countries? That seems like quite a deep insight.

 

[Bricky]

Agreed, they shouldn't be protesting while the festival is going on. Think of the kids, they should protest in like the summer or something…

They were appointed locations very close to the festival where they could make their voices heard but chose to ignore that and protest right in the middle of children waiting for Sinterklaas to show up. The media and people in general weren't going to ignore them anyway and the issue has been in the news for over a year now, so to do that to get more exposure is just sad and unnecessary (which is the reason they were eventually arrested by the police).

 

[SgtCobra]

A new year, a new zwarte Piet thread.

The discussion has gotten a lot more media attention this year as the vocal minority has been more....vocal than ever with things like TV appearances and demonstrations. The big problem is that the Dutch population doesn't want to aknowledge this because "I grew up with this!!!" "This is OUR tradition!!!".

When trying to discuss with people who want to preserve the tradition you get an answer like "well then, why don't you go to your own country then?"
They simply don't want to take a critical look at their so called tradition.

I grew up with Sinterklaas and zwarte Piet and I enjoyed those years as a child but these past few months I've realized that zwarte Piet is just a blackface with a ridiculous costume, I was a part of the problem, it doesn't help that they are portrayed as goofy/comical figures.

The biggest problem is that lots of Dutch people are still very casually racist in their own way, even if they don't intend to, that's why they can't understand the issue.

A good example is the fact on how easily the word "neger" (this of course means nigger, don't believe the people who tell you otherwise, nobody says "nikker" anymore) gets thrown around, no matter where you're from - if you're brown you're a "nigger"
While they don't want to hurt you by saying this they can't understand why you get mad when they call you like that because they think calling someone a nigger is perfectly normal and not an insult.

I come from a pretty small town and everything I say applies to where I live, on the bigger cities it's definitely not as severe as in my hometown. I shake my head every year I see 4 busses full of people from a village nearby dressed as zwarte pieten on their way to a bigger town to entertain people and get drunk... It's completely normal and "tradition"

 

[Raven Prime]

That's some Christmas memory to leave on a lot of kids, yikes.
Protests should always be allowed, but damn....there's a time and a place.

People already pointed out that it is exactly the time and place to protest. But I would also like to point out it's not a Christmas celebration. While it is true that the American Santa Claus is derived from West-European figures and was strongly influenced by the Dutch Sinterklaas as is evident in the similar name of Sinter Klaas and Santa Claus. Sinterklaas however is celebrated from mid November till 5/6 December, and the Dutch also celebrate Kerstmis or Christmas during 24-26 December (closely to the pre-Christian Yule celebrations) just like most Westerners do.

 

[Onemic]

Here's my main thing with the people that defend Zwerte Pete and say it's not 'blackface' and that it's different:

How can you explain away the origins of Zwerte Pete which were absolutely caked in racial caricatures/stereotypes of black people? Its been a while since I read about Pete history, but I vaguely remember Zwerte pete originally being a black evil demon of some sort.

How are Zwerte Pete's origins any different from blackface? Other than the fact the you guys slowly decided to change the origin story to something that isn't blatantly racist, but leaving the actual caricature of Pete the same? Do you not see the lack of consistency here?

 

[Busaiku]

You really think protesting is the best way to educate 6 year old kids?

If the kids are not being taught these lessons through any other means, it might be the only way.
I doubt many of the families participating are doing anything to teach them the wrongs of this practice, so for these kids, they may never know otherwise that it's wrong.

 

[lord quas]

If the kids are not being taught these lessons through any other means, it might be the only way.
I doubt many of the families participating are doing anything to teach them the wrongs of this practice, so for these kids, they may never know otherwise that it's wrong.

Thing is, it is not going to teach them anything. It will just make them sad, because apparently, their favorite holiday is a lie and bad

 

[Raven Prime]

I just don't get why, they can't adapt the holiday. I mean, I get tradition and all that. But an educated society, is supposed to recognize when certain things are wrong. We don't hold on to EVERYTHING we did in the past. We move forward. So I get that, people want to keep this holiday going because it's a really enjoyable time of the year.

So just make that shit modern. Make it so everyone can enjoy it. I don't see why it's hard to recognize that how it's currently being celebrated, it's offensive and makes certain people feel excluded. This picture I think, is at least some example of trying to make it more inclusive (or taking out the more offensive aspect). I guess the whole "Pete" character might have some issues, given its history. But at least, this is a step in the right direction.

Yeah that's the point, I am all for modernizing as much as possible. I think this hybrid Pete is acceptable in many ways, and is quite the neutral character, although personally I prefer the soot Pete so you can see someone's actual skincolor underneath. I want Pete to be etnicity neutral, but this works too. At the end of the day I don't really care that much about it, as long as all forms of racism are removed from the celebration.

But yeah a lot of Dutch people have good memories about the Sinterklaas celebration and as such don't see the problem or rather don't want to see the problem. Plus people are resistant to the changing of tradition anyway, because they use it to build the narrative about their national identities. And last but not least, lots of Dutch people consider themselves part of a tolerant society, while in reality the Netherlands and many of the Dutch in reality really aren't. Racism is still alive in the Netherlands, just as in most other countries around the world.

 

[PopeReal]

Thing is, it is not going to teach them anything. It will just make them sad, because apparently, their favorite holiday is a lie and bad

So no one should say or do anything because kids will be sad.

Continue on, racist practices!

 

[lord quas]

So no one should say or do anything because kids will be sad.

Continue on, racist practices!

I know reading is difficult, but here you go: things should be done -- by adults... You know, people who actually have the means to change things.

 

[Broder Salsa]

In my opinion, kids don't need to believe Santa is real. I say the sooner we tell them about this lie the better, so no harm done from the protesters there. Then they can come to enjoy Christmas for what it's actually all about, overeating.

 

[botty]

In my opinion, kids don't need to believe Santa is real. I say the sooner we tell them about this lie the better, so no harm done from the protesters there. Then they can come to enjoy Christmas for what it's actually all about, overeating.

Santa is a nice, magical figure that can help children escape the harsh realities we have to face in this cruel world...like racism.

 

[dr3upmushroom]

"I got a Black friend, it's all good." Like others have posted, the Afro, the skin "color", the lips... They all resonate a caricature of Black people. These people don't look like chimney sweepers to me, the look like white people trying to look Black. But what do I know, I'm an ignorant American not in touch with the rest of the world, oh shit wait.... We got a thing for that.

 

[PopeReal]

I know reading is difficult, but here you go: things should be done -- by adults... You know, people who actually have the means to change things.

The kids parents are obviously not doing anything to change things.

So there you go.

 

[Bricky]

This doesn't make any sense.
You shouldn't let kids know that something is racially insensitive? You should let them go on thinking it's ok to keep on doing this?
Violence is one thing, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with vocal protest of something that is offensive.

If the kids are not being taught these lessons through any other means, it might be the only way.
I doubt many of the families participating are doing anything to teach them the wrongs of this practice, so for these kids, they may never know otherwise that it's wrong.

So no one should say or do anything because kids will be sad.

Continue on, racist practices!

They're children for fuck's sake. Sinterklaas is one of the most wonderful times of the year to them. They don't even associatie Zwarte Piet with black people, let alone racism. and most of them like Zwarte Piet even more than they do Sinterklaas. You don't go and tell children 'YOU CANT LIKE ZWARTE PIET!' just because some grownups are having a discussion on whether he is a racist stereotype or not. That is not an issue five year olds should have to deal with.

Let's make Halloween a holiday about giving children vegetables while we're at it, because eating all that candy is obviously teaching them that it is ok to be fat and unhealthy and there is no better time to learn that that is wrong to them than Halloween!

 

[kingkitty]

Thing is, it is not going to teach them anything. It will just make them sad, because apparently, their favorite holiday is a lie and bad

The kids will get over it because in the next decade they'll be teenagers.

I don't think we should shield kids from knowing how racist/shitty something is. Otherwise they might grow up, and protect that same shitty thing because "tradition".

 

[Broder Salsa]

Santa is a nice, magical figure that can help children escape the harsh realities we have to face in this cruel world...like racism.

There's lots of escapism they can get into, without us lying to them. But that's for another discussing I think.

 

[lord quas]

The kids parents are obviously not doing anything to change things.

So there you go.

Screaming 'Sinterklaas is racist' in kids' faces instead of finding a long term cultural solution surely will though.

 

[Prophet Steve]

Just so that people know:

The protesters wanted to protest at the place where people now got arrested, but it was refused to protest there because it was deemed provocative.

There is also a pro-pieten group and the local government though it made a lot of sense to keep the groups separate at a parade for children.

In Amsterdam there also was a protest, but that one mostly went smooth.