chaobreaker
Member
Was the Santa an actual black person or a white guy wearing really dark face paint and possibly red lips? The former is acceptable while the latter is not.
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Meanwhile in The Netherlands; Blackface tradition returns for another celebration
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Was the Santa an actual black person or a white guy wearing really dark face paint and possibly red lips? The former is acceptable while the latter is not.
Sony
Nintendo
To anyone saying this is racist, by the oxford dictionary describes racism as "Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior".
Genuine question: based on this definition, how is this tradition racist?
Genuine question: based on this definition, how is this tradition racist?
BrassDragon
Member
I work at the National Police and I've not been instructed to do any such thing. On the contrary, every briefing emphasised respect for the rights of protesters and to reason them before intervening.
It's a celebration with ample room for organised protest (which is definitely used and covered)... but you'll have to work with the authorities and not upset the thousands of kids attending.
Christ, the hyperbole in this thread.
It is a celebration including a caricature that derived from our colonial presence in Suriname. It depicts our white mastery (Sinterklaas) who rules over his black slaves (the creool people of Suriname) who are his clownish foolish helpers (reference to the innocence but also dumbness and backwardness of tribal and non-western people in the colonial days. The concept of the noble savage).
It is drenched in racist colonial concepts and symbolism. But Holland never truly came to terms with its colonial past and how we ruled the world as white masters.
Yes. To most Dutch people, zwarte piet doesn't have a race, and it certainly doesn't symbolize it. Sinterklaas and Zwarte Piet are more magical creatures (like Santa Claus and the elves really), distinct from actual human beings outside of having limbs etc. That's why you see such resistance to making it a 'race issue'. However this denies that a) obviously it still looks like the racial stereotype it was based on and b) by this token it should of course be easy to change his visage, but this also leads to heavy resistance, indicating that perhaps it runs a bit deeper than being just a magical fantasy character, and that actually there are undertones of clinging to white supremacy.
bunbun777
Member
He was genuine as were the kids. It really was a nice looking scene and I was just so tired of the usual white guy santa.
and also clear overtones
It's a fucking minstral show
I prefer my Santa jacked, skin color is whatever.
Look at that dude. He's going to jam those presents down your throat instead of your stockings.
Black Pete is a caricature of black people, the curly hair and cartoon big red lips are both exaggerated stereotypes of black people's appearance that have been used to make fun of black people throughout history. The fact that there is a massive backlash when people ask for these things about balck pete to be changed shows that these characteristics are integral to the character,a and therefore carry the same historical weight that blackface does.
This goes both ways though, and if there people in the country protesting this for being racist, guess what?
Yes definitely, last years have been disgusting, we've been living in Trump country for some time now. I just wanted to explain how people who don't appear dumb bigots to outsiders would still deny anything wrong with zwarte piet.
The "hyperbole" isn't really the biggest problem is it?
Moz La Punk
Member
As a dutchman myself I used to not really see the harm in it. Let me explain it: kids grow up with it here, I did too, so because of that you find it so normal that you are blind for the obvious racial overtones. Im not excusing it, Im explaining how it is that in a country with 17 million people there are so many people blind to it.
In the years and especially this year Ive heard and read enough of people do taking offence in it and it has opened my eyes. Ive always been VERY accepting to all cultures, very left orientated and VERY much against racism so to still think nothing is wrong with Black Pete just didn't make any sense to me anymore. So Im firmly in the camp of changing the holiday so black pete wont look like this anymore.
Its really a shame, apart from all the people who are rightfully offended by it, it also looks bad on us as a country and that pains me, as we're very progressive in other aspects like same sex marriage and drug use. Again, thats because there are whole generations here that really have a blind spot for it thanks to the fact that theyve just been used to it their entire life. It isnt out of hate, its pure ignorance.
Thankfully more and more people are realising this and the holiday will keep changing over time. But as with anything surrounding racism, it cant happen fast enough.
In the years and especially this year Ive heard and read enough of people do taking offence in it and it has opened my eyes. Ive always been VERY accepting to all cultures, very left orientated and VERY much against racism so to still think nothing is wrong with Black Pete just didn't make any sense to me anymore. So Im firmly in the camp of changing the holiday so black pete wont look like this anymore.
Its really a shame, apart from all the people who are rightfully offended by it, it also looks bad on us as a country and that pains me, as we're very progressive in other aspects like same sex marriage and drug use. Again, thats because there are whole generations here that really have a blind spot for it thanks to the fact that theyve just been used to it their entire life. It isnt out of hate, its pure ignorance.
Thankfully more and more people are realising this and the holiday will keep changing over time. But as with anything surrounding racism, it cant happen fast enough.
First of all let's make one point very clear and that is that with the original protests police acted ridiculously harsh on the protesters. I've seen some very stupid things that went straight against the freedom to protest and had nothing to do with maintaining fair order. The lack of respect in my opinion truly started with the traditional systems of order (including the police).
Also explain why there is a city wide ban on protesting in one of the largest cities in the country (Rotterdam) today?
Just to share my story
It was (is?) common to scare the kids saying "the black man will come and take you away", it's even part of some lullaby. I don't know if it's used anymore, because in this part of my country traditions are disappearing pretty fast. My grandma chanted me this literally tens of thousand of times to lull me to sleep, and I don't even think SHE meant the black man was actually a man with black skin. I always imagined it as more of a shadow man without face, I only realized what it meant a couple of years ago. The origin is definitely racist but many people just don't see this probably.
My point is that we need a better way to communicate what's ok and what would be better to avoid in fear of hurting people, and I feel like this could be done way better than people do here -not in this thread, on this forum-.
Not every "white etero male" wants to offend and be racist, and shouting at them (us) doesn't help the cause, it just creates teams that maybe weren't even meant to exist in the first place.
In this case, the govern could just say to his people "Hey, Netherlands is made of lots of people coming from lots of different cultures and some of them see this as a way to make them feel just like slaves to our Santa Claus. To make this country a better place to everyone we chose the character face will now be blue, just like The Pokemon Company did with Jinx. This will not erase the festivity for the kids, it will just bring more kids to enjoy Christmas more. Kind regards, the ones who never won a World Cup."
TLDR: Help white people to understand and don't make this a war between clans, some of us white people really might not get it
It was (is?) common to scare the kids saying "the black man will come and take you away", it's even part of some lullaby. I don't know if it's used anymore, because in this part of my country traditions are disappearing pretty fast. My grandma chanted me this literally tens of thousand of times to lull me to sleep, and I don't even think SHE meant the black man was actually a man with black skin. I always imagined it as more of a shadow man without face, I only realized what it meant a couple of years ago. The origin is definitely racist but many people just don't see this probably.
My point is that we need a better way to communicate what's ok and what would be better to avoid in fear of hurting people, and I feel like this could be done way better than people do here -not in this thread, on this forum-.
Not every "white etero male" wants to offend and be racist, and shouting at them (us) doesn't help the cause, it just creates teams that maybe weren't even meant to exist in the first place.
In this case, the govern could just say to his people "Hey, Netherlands is made of lots of people coming from lots of different cultures and some of them see this as a way to make them feel just like slaves to our Santa Claus. To make this country a better place to everyone we chose the character face will now be blue, just like The Pokemon Company did with Jinx. This will not erase the festivity for the kids, it will just bring more kids to enjoy Christmas more. Kind regards, the ones who never won a World Cup."
TLDR: Help white people to understand and don't make this a war between clans, some of us white people really might not get it
Moz La Punk
Member
I think because people want the kids to keep believing in the holiday. Fear that the protesters will let them know its fake. Again, not excusing it but answering your question
ClosingADoor
Member
Because the event moves to Rotterdam I think. So same reason it is forbidden in Maassluis to protest at the moment without sticking to the designated zones. It's a safety measure. This is pretty common stuff with any large event.
Mister Wolf
Gold Member
Disgusting place wouldn't go there if you gave me free tickets.
Yeah, let's generalize an entire country when your country just elected Trump as president...
But I agree that zwarte piet is racist, stupid and has to go, and that pro-piet protestors are just absolutely pathetic
Sure it's a genuine question.
dragonelite
Member
Give it a couple of years too settle and that new version of Zwarte Piet will be the defacto.
Bish loves black face threads.
Iriscomeback
Member
People over here are up in arms about this it's unbelievable.
It's really sad to see people on social media defending this by calling everybody names and telling them to fuck off, and I'm being mild. The stuff you'll read is really, really nasty.
And the saddest thing is that kids really don't give a fuck, they just want presents. It's the 'adults' that riot.
Grow up. Traditions change.
It's really sad to see people on social media defending this by calling everybody names and telling them to fuck off, and I'm being mild. The stuff you'll read is really, really nasty.
And the saddest thing is that kids really don't give a fuck, they just want presents. It's the 'adults' that riot.
Grow up. Traditions change.
Only 21% of the country wants it to change, so I wouldn't hold my breath. The debate has been heavily polarized already, so I don't expect too many people changing sides now.
https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2016/11/0...ijfde-wil-andere-zwarte-piet-5100360-a1529881
Exactly. I've heard stuff coming past from people that is so disgusting in content that it really makes me feel hopeless for this country.
Then we also have a black female politician being referred to as a crying negro and a monkey and I really start to believe things are almost lost over here.
I'd be amazed if the change is that supported by half the population. It was purely a business decision between the organizers.
dglavimans
Member
Grow up with this tradition myself... Used to do it myself and went to some families and such...
Never have I ever heared someone taking a problem with this until the last few years... Children don't care... Hell when I was a kid I didnt think: "ow sinterklaas is on his horse and all those black painted people are his slaves!" I was just happy with getting candy.....
Why is everything in this world today such a fucking depression shithole that we take a problem with litterly everything there is... Like seriously...
Never have I ever heared someone taking a problem with this until the last few years... Children don't care... Hell when I was a kid I didnt think: "ow sinterklaas is on his horse and all those black painted people are his slaves!" I was just happy with getting candy.....
Why is everything in this world today such a fucking depression shithole that we take a problem with litterly everything there is... Like seriously...
ClosingADoor
Member
Doesn't really matter. You just have to get the major events to change and after that it will go quickly. This is starting now, but they are holding back a bit due to people complaining. Within 5 years, any major event surrounding this will have changed I think.
I also think kids don't care. And that is also where that arguments breaks apart. If kids don't care, there is no harm done in changing it also.
Are you really using unknowing kids as a shield?
Because it is time we come face to face with our past. Time to come face to face with centuries of colonialism and rule of the white man.
Social academics have been calling for this reckoning with reality for a long time but the world has been slow. The reason why everything is under fire now is because all these social injustices have been gone ignored for too long and are far overdue in needing change. Then on the other hand you have ignorant people unwilling to still understand where class and power originates from historically resisting against progress and refusing to grow their self awareness.
dglavimans
Member
No I am really not. I am describing how I felt as a kid on Sinterklaas.
Racists aren't made with this. Failing parents make racists and will make them long when this event has changed.
I also didn't feel like that when I was a kid. Then I grew up, read some books, did some thinking and realized some things about the world.
It's not too late to change and develop some larger awareness about the world you live in.
And racist parents want to keep a racist tradition to teach to their hopefully indoctrinated and unknowing children?
Audioboxer
Member
WTF? That is ridiculous.
dglavimans
Member
There is no need to get personal, you don't know me and my background so keep your: you dont know how the world works for yourself please.
It is a child festivity and I have never ever linked it with white and black. I wont ever link it with white and black because that is not what this festivity is about. The people who are against this or for this change and having bags with knives need to stand still and realise what they are doing.
Nollemaster
Member
I can't even convince my friends and family that Zwarte Piet is a racist caricature. I think this issue will remain for at least 10 years.
People here don't give a shit about Sinterklaas, but when Zwarte Piet is called racist suddenly Sinterklaas is incredibly important and they should leave it alone because it's just a fun holiday for children. People who are incredibly upset and defensive about why Zwarte Piet needs to keep blackface need to get a grip already.
BrassDragon
Member
You can call the police and ask, I'm not going to explain operational details here.
Criticism is fine and often justified. But I reject the suggestion that my colleagues are enemies of democracy and free expression.
I'm out of the thread.
dglavimans
Member
I dont even know what you are saying... parenting makes racist. I am for Sinterklaas but am far from a racist... Some people just dont take offensive out of every little thing that is going on in this earth
I wonder how many times you have had conversations about this issue with non-white people in order to get a wider perspective than that of your own race.
Once again, too call it a child festivity and imply that it is thus inherently free from racism is a logical fallacy. I really don't understand how you could ever imply that this tradition has nothing to do with white and black and I truly advise you to educate yourself further in this.
Why exactly did a tradition like that even start ( I can't wiki anything it keeps giving me pages I can't read). Yeah it's 1800 whatever and animal rights barely exist but why an eel ? Also rioting over not being able to continue to torment innocent fish is just sad.
On topic the picture of both Sinterklaas shaking hands is at least mildly encouraging.
And let me repeat myself. Racist parents want to keep a racist tradition that appeals to them and then can use to pass down to their children whom they hope follow in their footsteps. Its not rocket science and you not seeing the offense in it doesn't mean its not offensive.
ClosingADoor
Member
It's also bullshit. Protests were allowed in the designated zones. You just couldn't randomly go walking around with your protest groups since that would be a safety issue. That action group had refused to tell the authorities they were going to protest and didn't want to stick to the protest zones along the route of the event.
This is the way it is with pretty much any major protest and has been handled this way for a variety of issues.
The biggest problem (after it being racist, obviously) is how the debate went from 0 to 100 a few years ago. Just look at this year. I feel the discussion has been the most muted in 5 years or so, yet there are bigger steps taken to abolish the racist elements from the tradition.
I have faith that within 5 years the commercial and most public appearances will have removed any racist undertones. That might seem slow, but realize this is an over 150 years old tradition that never really saw any change.
I have faith that within 5 years the commercial and most public appearances will have removed any racist undertones. That might seem slow, but realize this is an over 150 years old tradition that never really saw any change.
Jinjo
Member
There actually were rainbow-coloured peets a year or two ago, but that was too much change at once and completely silly. I think the new trend of them being white and having charcoal smears on their face instead of being pure blackface is a step in the right direction. It fits with the idea of them crawling through the chimneys.
Growing up with Sinterklaas or participating in Sinterklaas doesn't automatically make racist little children or parents. It is a long outdated tradition and something definitely needs to change, but as a kid, and also as a parent it's about the presents for kids. That doesn't excuse the unwillingness to adapt to a growing multicultural society.
This country is unfortunately struggling with the same movement that got Trump elected though, and we have a politician with the same ideologies. The majority of the people that do not want Sinterklaas to change seem to be the 50+ people (from my personal experience, I could be wrong), the newer generations do seem to agree that something needs to change. Unfortunately, as with every country, the older established generations vastly outnumber the newer generations.
Audioboxer
Member
Ah okay that's fair enough, the way it was worded just sounds like protest and you're getting arrested.
Nollemaster
Member
It's not just about the children, the issue is larger than most people are willing to realize. If you haven't already I recommend you watch the documentary Zwart Als Roet.
For the people who don't speak Dutch, at 12:16 in the video, they walk around in Zwarte Piet outfits in a park in London. The reactions of the people there are very telling.
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