• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Vox: Research says there are ways to reduce racism. Calling people racist isn’t one.

Status
Not open for further replies.
You're talking about changing societal norms that have existed for hundreds of years.

Certainly you didn't think that bringing about this change would be easy?

So now in Trump America, the culture has switched to "unity discussion"

In which the upending argument is, No Lower Class White Citizen, I don't participate in crime at a higher rate than you do despite you being the country majority, No Im not stealing your jobs that affirmative action wouldn't even replace you with since the program isn't even blue collar, No Im not driving up the debt by living off government welfare despite you doing the same thing.

So, you gotta take all that history and baggage and in order to have a discussion in Trump America, you can't say the word "Racism" anymore.

That's your new handicap.

So you tell me, just how easy is this expected to be in this new culture?
 

Alucrid

Banned
My "flippant post" and this article actually coincide with my belief that the Democrat party is self destructing in very non-liberal ways. The backlash to Trump winning is eerily similar to how conservatives acted when Obama beat McCain.

I am fucking pissed off that we look like fucking religious nutjobs bemoaning the first black president for being the anti-christ.

Now is the time for self-reflection, but all i see is fingerpointing and misplaced hate. Which, as an older millennial myself, shouldn't be as surprising as it is.

People don't like Obama because he is black. People don't like Trump because his cabinet picks and advisers are white nationalists, racists, insane or a combination of the three. So yes, people are protesting, people are pissed, but they actually have valid reasons for doing so.
 

Machina

Banned
That's not entirely fair either. Things *are* changing, just not as fast as we would like.

Again, you're taking a snapshot of what really amounts to less than 200 years. There are societies that have existed for thousands. I'm with you, I wish we were moving faster. But we are moving.

Racism has existed long before the American Civil War man. Thousands of years, not hundreds.
 
Which is a pretty fucked up statement when you consider that "what you think you deserve" is being treated as an equal human being.

This needs reposting because it is the crux of why people are scoffing at the idea of putting emotions or personal feelings aside for the "greater good"
 

bishoptl

Banstick Emeritus
Just to clarify since I want to do this correctly, but do I give them the handjob before or after they call me a coon?

Damn.

Anyways, I'm not here to coddle racists.

We've been here - explaining until we're blue in the face that our humanity is equal and something to be respected.

If calling you out on your bullshit makes you double down on said bullshit, that is a deficiency in you - not the observer.

Y'all in such a hurry to forgive yourselves after this election. Nope. No handwaving today.
 

Skinpop

Member
Nobody's trying to pass this off as false. Did you even read my post?

yeah I did and you started out calling it "barely science", it's hard to read something like that as anything but an attempt at discrediting the article.
I thought it was self evident that calling people out just doesn't work, but according to this thread it's better to feel good about being right than solving a real problem. sorry if I misunderstood you, it's just that threads like these completely tanks my faith in america ever overcoming this issue. it reminds me of how you treat your criminals.
 

besada

Banned
Wait do people really think we haven't been educating racists/moderates up until now?

You'd think endless Hollywood movies, TV shows, books, and talk shows would have done it, but apparently they missed the last several decades of media...oh, wait, no they didn't. In fact, they were so hyper aware of the attempted education that they threw fits and boycotted shows because there were gay loving couples presented, and boycotted Pepsi because they didn't like it when rappers expressed how racism had damaged their lives. Then they started their own media companies to avoid having to listen to mainstream media about anything.
 

Future

Member
I'm sure it's very logical that getting people to empathize will make them change their views more Han yelling at them and calling them names

However, if a person murdered your whole family would you choose empathy, make them understand the pain of taking a life, and not call them a criminal? Or would you call them a cold blooded murderer
 
It is slow as molasses, but taking the high road may still help in the long run. Calling people racists, even if it's true, is effectively arguing by going "fuck you", which does nothing but further distance the two groups.

Let's say a racist family gets in an argument with a single guy who's a minority on the street. The racist parents are getting in the guy's face, while the guy is trying to be nice and reasonable.

Sure, the guy probably isn't going to get through to the parents of the family because those parents have probably been racist for decades and one conversation isn't going to sway them. But what about the kids in that family watching the argument? What if they've been told that minorities are scum their whole lives, but here they are seeing a minority acting way more reasonably than their parents currently are? Being nice has just planted the seed of doubt in those kids' heads, making them think that maybe minorities aren't the horrible beings that their parents keep saying they are. Maybe these kids will be more likely to hang out with minorities at school because of it. Maybe these kids won't grow up to be racists like their parents. That's the difference.

Now, what if the guy instead turned around and started yelling back at the parents in front of those kids, calling them racists and other names? Even if the anger is justified and the names are accurate (which they are), that behavior is confirming to the whole family that minorities are enemies and should be approached with caution. To the kids watching, that enforces the racial lines that their parents were drawing for them. It increases the chances of them growing up to be racists themselves.

The parents will tell the children that the minority is the bad guy. Like the have for decades. And we still have to play nice to avoid being physically hurt or worse.

I hate hypotheticals
 

Goro Majima

Kitty Genovese Member
I think this is kind of tangentially related to the practice of "name and shame" on social media. Does that really "destroy racist lives" as much as people had hoped when now Trump is president? Have internet backlashes contributed to the hardening of people's perspectives and forced them to dig their heels in more?

I mean Trump is president so I feel like the things that are taken for granted have to be reevaluated.

I dunno, I hope one day that multiculturalism can succeed but we're going backwards in that regard. When I read about some black people wanting to self-segregate themselves into their own communities with their own banks and businesses, it's hard to blame them. At what point do people just throw their hands up and take their ball and go home?
 
How do you point out racism without talking about racism?
I think the best way to approach it is to call the action racist without calling / writing off the person who did it as racist (assuming they seem ignorant and not malicious).

I've been listing to management tools podcasts with my girlfriend and they point out that managers should never be critical of attitude, only behavior, because people become immediately defensive when you're critical of their attitude and have an easy, effective response ("no, I'm not") that shuts down conversation. It's much harder to deny behavior and it's not a direct attack on them. Does this same principle apply to racism or sexism? I think so.
 

Machina

Banned
You'd think endless Hollywood movies, TV shows, books, and talk shows would have done it, but apparently they missed the last several decades of media...oh, wait, no they didn't. In fact, they were so hyper aware of the attempted education that they threw fits and boycotted shows because there were gay loving couples presented, and boycotted Pepsi because they didn't like it when rappers expressed how racism had damaged their lives. Then they started their own media companies to avoid having to listen to mainstream media about anything.

Savage.
 

Macam

Banned
Damn.

Anyways, I'm not here to coddle racists.

We've been here - explaining until we're blue in the face that our humanity is equal and something to be respected.

If calling you out on your bullshit makes you double down on said bullshit, that is a deficiency in you - not the observer.

Y'all in such a hurry to forgive yourselves after this election. Nope. No handwaving today.

This.

Also, thanks to Harson for making me laugh. Needed that.
 
The people in the rust belt need to get a clue. There is no helping them if they want to cling to the old as if it's not going away anyway in spite of their protests. Globalization isn't going to be stopped now.

It's a problem that certainly could use some sort of solution. Calling a group of people "clueless" certainly doesn't help, as they likely lack the funds/time to learn new skills, much less move elsewhere to get a new job.

But that's a different topic entirely. They're desperate, one candidate varied between telling them "no, your jobs are gone" and straight up ignoring them, and the other candidate offered them hope even if it's bull. It's not too hard to see how that ended up.
 

Lime

Member
You'd think endless Hollywood movies, TV shows, books, and talk shows would have done it, but apparently they missed the last several decades of media...oh, wait, no they didn't. In fact, they were so hyper aware of the attempted education that they threw fits and boycotted shows because there were gay loving couples presented, and boycotted Pepsi because they didn't like it when rappers expressed how racism had damaged their lives. Then they started their own media companies to avoid having to listen to mainstream media about anything.

This makes me sad, because I don't know how to combat such a thing.
 

Slayven

Member
Damn.

Anyways, I'm not here to coddle racists.

We've been here - explaining until we're blue in the face that our humanity is equal and something to be respected.

If calling you out on your bullshit makes you double down on said bullshit, that is a deficiency in you - not the observer.

Y'all in such a hurry to forgive yourselves after this election. Nope. No handwaving today.

.
 

Skilletor

Member
Damn.

Anyways, I'm not here to coddle racists.

We've been here - explaining until we're blue in the face that our humanity is equal and something to be respected.

If calling you out on your bullshit makes you double down on said bullshit, that is a deficiency in you - not the observer.

Y'all in such a hurry to forgive yourselves after this election. Nope. No handwaving today.

Preach.
 
That's not entirely fair either. Things *are* changing, just not as fast as we would like.

Again, you're taking a snapshot of what really amounts to less than 200 years. There are societies that have existed for thousands. I'm with you, I wish we were moving faster. But we are moving.

He forgot Muslims after 9/11. The true victims are Sikhs (Wisconsin Sikh temple shooting). As they have no relation and are just as victimized because of the color of their skin. And Muslims in general will never be seen as 1st class citizens in America. Not by everybody at least, as we would like.
 

Maxim726X

Member
Damn.

Anyways, I'm not here to coddle racists.

We've been here - explaining until we're blue in the face that our humanity is equal and something to be respected.

If calling you out on your bullshit makes you double down on said bullshit, that is a deficiency in you - not the observer.

Y'all in such a hurry to forgive yourselves after this election. Nope. No handwaving today.

No forgiveness here. It's fucked up and I would hope that the country looks at itself.

This article suggests that there may be more constructive ways to have this conversation. It's at least something worth debating.
 
That's because "conversations" now are tweets/social media responses. So a lot of the people you're talking about are seeing this OP and thinking it applies to people labeling a tweet as racist, vs having a conversation with a person in real life.

This is actually an interesting point.

Not just social media, but media in general. We only ever see outrage and overreaction, in liberal media it's "obvious awful racist gets comeuppance they deserve", in conservative media it's "stupid liberal goes insane over incredible minor thing". Frank racial discussions and education do happen in real life, but they don't get nearly as much attention on national media-wide scale. This is probably even worse in small-town rural America where there is quite literally the only depiction of minorities/social justice they're likely to get.
 

Alucrid

Banned
It's a problem that certainly could use some sort of solution. Calling a group of people "clueless" certainly doesn't help, as they likely lack the funds/time to learn new skills, much less move elsewhere to get a new job.

But that's a different topic entirely. They're desperate, one candidate varied between telling them "no, your jobs are gone" and straight up ignoring them, and the other candidate offered them hope even if it's bull. It's not too hard to see how that ended up.

clinton had a few more words than "no, your jobs are gone"

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/brie.../clinton-plan-to-revitalize-coal-communities/
 

Slayven

Member
No forgiveness here. It's fucked up and I would hope that the country looks at itself.

This article suggests that there may be more constructive ways to have this conversation. It's at least something worth debating.

One's humanity should never be up to debate
 

WedgeX

Banned
You'd think endless Hollywood movies, TV shows, books, and talk shows would have done it, but apparently they missed the last several decades of media...oh, wait, no they didn't. In fact, they were so hyper aware of the attempted education that they threw fits and boycotted shows because there were gay loving couples presented, and boycotted Pepsi because they didn't like it when rappers expressed how racism had damaged their lives. Then they started their own media companies to avoid having to listen to mainstream media about anything.

Yeah this is also true. Argh.
 

Sou Da

Member
Trump's right hand man and his chan fucks are trying their hardest to make the Western World into a place where openly shitting on every minority is seen a norm and Racist becomes the "R-word" so on second thought I truly don't fuck with this ideology.
 
yeah I did and you started out calling it "barely science", it's hard to read something like that as anything but an attempt at discrediting the article.
I thought it was self evident that calling people out just doesn't work, but according to this thread it's better to feel good about being right than solving a real problem. sorry if I misunderstood you, it's just that threads like these completely tanks my faith in america ever overcoming this issue. it reminds me of how you treat your criminals.

"Barely science" in that it's one research study on social issues, of which there could be thousands in the future that discredit or qualify it. We all know how liberally the media likes to interpret research studies when they do their "Studies Show..." headlines.

Vox was using this study of a narrower slice of social issues to make a larger point. Which, again, is a valid point that's worthy of discussion, even if I don't ultimately agree with it. But that doesn't mean it's hard data with irrefutably proven hypotheses. This was trotted out barely a week after an election that had everyone shaken. It's a short-form response to an election in which social issues were at the forefront, it's not an academic dissertation. Call it what you want, but "science" in such a way that you then get to make fun of people who disagree with it as "anti-science", you cannot.
 

Croatoan

They/Them A-10 Warthog
People don't like Obama because he is black. People don't like Trump because his cabinet picks and advisers are white nationalists, racists, insane or a combination of the three. So yes, people are protesting, people are pissed, but they actually have valid reasons for doing so.

Uhh, limiting to people's past worry about Obama to just his skin color is disingenuous as hell. You do realize the Republican party has a whole platform that people believe in right? And that platform is often at odds with Democrats? They don't just vote on race like you imply. This is actually a worrying trend, people claiming the opposition only votes for the worst reasons, and leads to completely misunderstanding why things are the way they are.

Hell, from what I have read, some of the white people who voted in Obama, also voted in Trump. How could they be racist? Or did they just become racist over the last 8 years?
 
I think we should look to the schools and the classrooms themselves in trying to fix the problem. You're not going to change the minds of racist parents who have already been brainwashed into thinking minorities and members of the LGBT community are a plague on society. Wiping out racism through the youth might be the best place to start.
 

Ryzaki009

Member
It is slow as molasses, but taking the high road may still help in the long run. Calling people racists, even if it's true, is effectively arguing by going "fuck you", which does nothing but further distance the two groups.

Let's say a racist family gets in an argument with a single guy who's a minority on the street. The racist parents are getting in the guy's face, while the guy is trying to be nice and reasonable.

Sure, the guy probably isn't going to get through to the parents of the family because those parents have probably been racist for decades and one conversation isn't going to sway them. But what about the kids in that family watching the argument? What if they've been told that minorities are scum their whole lives, but here they are seeing a minority acting way more reasonably than their parents currently are? Being nice has just planted the seed of doubt in those kids' heads, making them think that maybe minorities aren't the horrible beings that their parents keep saying they are. Maybe these kids will be more likely to hang out with minorities at school because of it. Maybe these kids won't grow up to be racists like their parents. That's the difference.

Now, what if the guy instead turned around and started yelling back at the parents in front of those kids, calling them racists and other names? Even if the anger is justified and the names are accurate (which they are), that behavior is confirming to the whole family that minorities are enemies and should be approached with caution. To the kids watching, that enforces the racial lines that their parents were drawing for them. It increases the chances of them growing up to be racists themselves.

We've been doing this for 200 years. And we're currently backsliding after some steps forward. Saying this does nothing but further distance is ignoring that distance isn't being filled *anyway*.

Which is exactly what I meant by not on a wide enough scale and slow as molasses. And then that one incident has to fight against their parents constant reinforcement and them not wanting to be ostracized from their peers.

I love how being called a racist is now a slur. It's incredible. Again this doesn't change what I originally said. This is slow and on such a small scale acting as though it's some silver bullet to racism is off.
 
Im glad the people came out in this thread to show how fucking dumb this "report" was

Honestly it's not even bad, but when only one part is presented and the rest largely ignored...

The idea that insulting someone won't make them change is pretty self-evident, but trying to prevent that as an absolution of racism or an off-loading of ALL of the work on to minorities is clown shoes. Confident declarations of lies borne up by hurt feelings.

I'm not even mad if people are more concerned with getting votes for the "team" then they are about the well-being of some of the team members, just be honest about it
 

BlackJace

Member
Also, if a few hyperaggressive liberals calling you racist is all it takes for you to become actually racist or actively fight against social injustice, isn't that super telling of that person's character?

"I haven't done much to fight social injustice, but these SJW articles just make me hate the movement altogether!"

Just admit that some people never gave a shit in the first place and cant handle being chastised. That's a personal problem and certainly not mine or anyone else's to correct.
 
I'm terrible for what? Agreeing with your position?

Yes, that's how a lot of Americans apparently think. Aren't you arguing exactly the same?

Look at your tone man,

I told you, this shit isn't a discussion or a game. But yet, you're halfway receptive to the idea that people deserve to stand up for themselves.

Like you think you're educated on this, and its clear to the whole thread you got some extra work you need to take care of.

Calling people racists doesn't exacerbate racism. Racist people going unchecked exacerbates racism.
 

Sou Da

Member
I think we should look to the schools and the classrooms themselves in trying to fix the problem. You're not going to change the minds of racist parents who have already been brainwashed into thinking minorities and members of the LGBT community are a plague on society. Wiping out racism through the youth might be the best place to start.

Hard to do when a sizeable arm of the internet's influence is actively trying their hardest to make their brand of bigotry the absolute norm.
 

Seeya

Member
How do you point out racism without talking about racism?

"Hey man that tblackface costume is pretty racist."

"Hey man you hurt my feelings stop taking the fun out of everything"



If me pointing out something is racist, and it causes you to double down and damn near put a klan hood on? Brah

Have fun putting your ego ahead of actually helping to improve situations then!
 

Maxim726X

Member
Honestly it's not even bad, but when only one part is presented and the rest largely ignored...

The idea that insulting someone won't make them change is pretty self-evident, but trying to prevent that as an absolution of racism or an off-loading of ALL of the work on to minorities is clown shoes. Confident declarations of lies borne up by hurt feelings.

I'm not even mad if people are more concerned with getting votes for the "team" then they are about the well-being of some of the team members, just be honest about it

But that 'team' is pushing socially progressive policy. It's also the party that doesn't justify racist beliefs that were held but hidden until a Trump presidency.

So it circles back to the original argument- Do you change more minds with calling people racists, or with having conversations and potentially changing some minds?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom