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Vox: Research says there are ways to reduce racism. Calling people racist isn’t one.

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Alucrid

Banned
Isn't that what this thread is about though? That it potentially does work more than we thought, and that we might need to reconsider that the evidence with which we have provided ourselves is anecdotal?





Frankly, it's incredibly disappointing that the OP's article has made you so upset that you have decided to bring in his own personal situation and personally attack him instead of actually discuss the article. How he addresses his families' bigotry isn't your business.

Him posting this thread and this article is not a personal attack on you (though you may feel like it because it calls your own behaviour out as harmful towards progress). Don't respond like it is. Such fragility!

you don't get to make a flippant post dismissing people's reaction to the election then make a thread about how they're the ones further entrenching racism

so lets be real here. the authors themselves say that deep canvassing isn't easy or all that scalable.

"It's definitely incredibly difficult," says Justin Klecha of SAVE, the LGBT advocacy group in Miami that provided the canvassers for Broockman and Kalla's study. "One is just having the field staff prioritize this work above all else. … You need to build up leaders, and training, and support, which takes time."

Advocates need months to mobilize enough canvassers to meaningfully change votes on a ballot measure. And even then, the intervention may not work on everyone.

also there's this point

But Broockman and Kalla had also added a twist to the experiment. In the survey sent after six weeks, the researchers attempted to destroy any goodwill the canvassers might have sown for trans rights with an anti-trans attack ad. (Ads like these highlight the claim that transgender rights laws will allow predatory males to enter women's bathrooms.)

The results of the six-week survey suggested that the immediate effect of the ad was that it diminished support for a trans-supportive law in both groups. But then at three months, that effect of the ad disappeared for the intervention group — as if they had been vaccinated against prejudice.

so people who have these conversations are easily swayed to the other side by information they receive regardless of it's validity or accuracy. while the study shows that the effect wears off people don't just get one random anti-transgender ad in the mail. they read breitbart. they read the fake facebook news. they follow donald trump on twitter. they're under a constant barrage of news that continually demonizes minorities.

http://www.vox.com/2016/4/7/11380974/reduce-prejudice-science-transgender

i also did discuss the article. it's incredibly disappointing that you didn't read the entire thread before posting.
 

Croatoan

They/Them A-10 Warthog
How are singular, sometimes exhausting conversations going to change people when they have media and family and community constantly bombarding them with positive reinforcement for their racist views.

I'm fine with the idea of white people in a position to do so to try and change minds gently about these sorts of things, but not everyone has the influence to do so, nor are in a secure enough position to do so. I can't exactly go too public with my views on certain things, nor can I be too open about my views because of all the conservative people I work with.

But I definitely reject the idea that PoC or LGBTQ+ people should bear any responsibility for this. Many of them have to work hard enough to just to survive and deal with both the overt and subtle prejudice they face on a daily basis, and it's hard to imagine asking them to expend additional energy trying to convince people who probably should have done more to educate themselves.

I guess my question is, How do you think we fix the problem then?
 

Maxim726X

Member
Yes. whether you say racist, white privilege, racial bias, or being discriminatory based on race. The first step in solving a problem is acknowledging that you have one. The response is to either embrace it, deny it, or fix it.

The other thing is white allies should be the ones who do the talking and convincing. I think the conversation would be more beneficial if another white person comes out and said that they know they have privilege because they can share experiences since they would get similar treatment as opposed to be seen as an accusation from a minority.

You know how people from similar backgrounds can better reach others because they have the same story (more or less), the same can be said about white privilege. I mean minorities can see it, but we can't share experiences because we aren't white. Except those who can pass in society.

I have confronted and admitted my privilege. But it was being outside my small town white suburban upbringing that made me realize it. Now imagine that you're stuck in this situation your whole life, as many are, and you never leave it. I live on Long Island, which actually is a very diverse population (as a whole), and it took me until my 20's to finally see it. What if you're living in the middle of nowhere USA, where everyone is exactly like you? It's tough to see this.

Those are the people worth reaching.

Bullshit, you're just not listening to what we're saying, i'm done with this rhetoric now. Listen.

I'm trying to. I understand your point, and I've seen it raised every time this conversation comes up- The burden shouldn't be on you.

I guess ultimately the question is this- What is the best way moving forward? Is it to simply call it as it is, or is it approach it a different, less confrontational way?
 
People are still boiling down the election into a racist/non-racist binary as if people were all single-issue voters who want to keep people they never interact with down.

Most of them care more about shit that will directly impact them, which is the main priority of voters everywhere in every election. To expect these people to vote against their own interests (or what they perceive to be their interests) is idiotic. Racism was certainly a part of Trump's platform, but pretending it was the reason people in the Rust Belt voted for him is completely off-base.
 

Skinpop

Member
If someone in my family or someone I know holds those beliefs then I will try to talk to them and I will try to convice them. Explain why they're wrong (even though it should be fucking obvious at this point) and how they are actively hurting other people. If they continue to hold those beliefs I will absolutely stop talking to them or at least reduce interactions to a bare minimum. For my own god damn sanity. It's not about feeling morally superior but I'm so tired of this bullshit and I'm white. I can't even begin to imagine how tired minorities are of having to live with it every single day. Can you really blame them for just saying "fuck it" at some point?

No I don't blame them, but how to make the world better and what you think you deserve and who you think are deplorable are completely different things. you can say this isn't my job all you want but these issues won't fix themselves and the only thing you can do to influence it is to make it your job to some degree.
 

B4s5C

Member
Man it's so disheartening seeing this article bring up very valid points about people who may or may not be racist and a portion of GAF going "FUCK YOUR FEELINGS, RACIST". It's amazing how quickly people are to discredit someone because they're white and aren't as "woke" when it comes to social/racial issues.

Welcome to the liberal equivalency of places like /r/Conservative. Ignoring science and burying their heads in the sand.
 

Sou Da

Member
Yeah, no. If white folks want to go ahead with this then go ahead.

I refuse to take the burden of serving anyone who hates my existence because of their own echo chamber.
 
People are still boiling down the election into a racist/non-racist binary as if people were all single-issue voters who want to keep people they never interact with down.

Most of them care more about shit that will directly impact them, which is the main priority of voters everywhere in every election. To expect these people to vote against their own interests (or what they perceive to be their interests) is idiotic. Racism was certainly a part of Trump's platform, but pretending it was the reason people in the Rust Belt voted for him is completely off-base.

No one said it was the reason, but people who were able to stomach the level of hate and bigotry Trump spewed because "jobs" are not okay in my book.
 
If the goal is to reduce prejudice, then your personal feelings are irrelevant.

You have to separate "what's fair" from "what's important."

But that being said, it's fucking tough to put those feelings aside. I'm in a much more mature crowd now, so I'm not having to deal with racism much if at all anymore. But still, growing up in a small majority white town as an Chinese person, I had to endure a high school experience where everyone kept saying that I eat dogs or cats. I personally found these accusations disgusting, as someone born and raised in Canada and an animal lover, that shit hurts.

And honestly? It's so fucking hard not to call them racists and call it a day because those pricks aren't worth more of my energy. Thinking back, my animosity towards them still would not change. At least in my case, which is probably similar to others, I'm not sure how one would go beyond these feelings.

Putting aside is just easier said than done.
 

KingV

Member
I thought this study was fraudulent. I remember there being a controversy around it.

Or it might have been a similar one around gay marriage.

Edit: no it was a different study... But weirdly, one of the authors of this study uncovered said fraud.
 

Machina

Banned
No one said it was the reason, but people who were able to stomach the level of hate and bigotry Trump spewed because "jobs" are not okay in my book.

^^This. It's a tired argument that nobody is buying. Where does principle end and common decency begin?
 

Slayven

Member
How do you point out racism without talking about racism?

"Hey man that tblackface costume is pretty racist."

"Hey man you hurt my feelings stop taking the fun out of everything"

what-up-dog-duh-face-photo-by-kaw.jpg

If me pointing out something is racist, and it causes you to double down and damn near put a klan hood on? Brah
 
Welcome to the liberal equivalency of places like /r/Conservative. Ignoring science and burying their heads in the sand.

This is hardly "science". It's a well-argued point and certainly one that warrants discussion, but the study was based on transgender discrimination and Vox extrapolated it to include all minorities. Let's not put random articles on a pedestal just because it tells us what we want to hear.
 

BitStyle

Unconfirmed Member
People really don't give a fuck about listening to the actual arguments minority posters are putting forward in this thread and elsewhere. No one will listen us, and the moment we talk we're suddenly being aggressive. It's just depressing.

Talk about anything passionately and suddenly you're the "angry black man."

I've never engaged a person-to-person discussion of racism/bigotry with shouting "you're a racist/bigot!" To be honest, I highly doubt many minorities actually engage in that manner, but one needs to understand that even after making our case as a minority, a lot of these folks will return to their families or social bubbles right after and reinforce their world view and biases all the same.
 
Being a racist is cushy as fuck. You get to go on saying heinous shit and the people you're saying it against have to do all the work to convince you otherwise, while at most you have to go "Ehh, I guess that makes sense" or "I'm not convinced"
 
I thought this study was fraudulent. I remember there being a controversy around it.

Or it might have been a similar one around gay marriage.

I'm certainly dubious of its conclusions. Going door to door and talking to people seems like a good idea, sure. But concluding that doing so is how we get people to stop being racist seems naive at best.

I would not be surprised if people willing to open their door and have a chat are generally more open to changing their mind in the first place.
 

B4s5C

Member
I thought this study was fraudulent. I remember there being a controversy around it.

Or it might have been a similar one around gay marriage.

It was the gay marriage study where the researcher made up all of the data and made extravagant assumptions. These researchers still believe there is merit in investigating the research question.
 

harSon

Banned
Just to clarify since I want to do this correctly, but do I give them the handjob before or after they call me a coon?
 
Going case by case with people does a lot.

Someone can claim to be against immigrants, but I guarantee you can find some hypothetical situation where they'd actually all for an immigrant coming in. Like someone trying to bring their family in, or someone who has been in America their whole life.

Of course, the key problem is that there are still people who will disagree with you, no matter what, since they're watching different news with different facts and views. Middle ground can be hard to find.
 

Altairre

Member
Two wrongs, or acts of aggression, do not make a right. We learn that when we are all kids, or we are supposed to learn that at least.

Heck, labeling folks you deem as racist, when they aren't actually, can make some people racist In the end.

See this is what Lime was talking about with white fragility. How is it an act of aggression when you point out that something is racist. If that word alone is enough that the person you're talking to will shut everything down then how are you ever going to have a discussion about it? If you're not willing to admit your faults at all then that's not on the person who called you out, it's entirely on you. I somehow doubt that most people point out racism in a "you fucking racist piece of shit" way when they're actually talking to other people.

By all means, people who have the strength, the opportunity, and the desire should attempt to educate rather than browbeat.

But I blame no minority for being unwilling to do the heavy lifting on it. They shouldn't have to eat shit and give back sweetness non-stop. Asking them to do so ignores human nature every bit as much as the idea that you can call someone racist so much they stop being racist.

The reality is, a lot of people have given up on the racists, in part because they've tried before, often in their own families. As has been pointed out, the study was about trans people, and many people have no direct contact with trans people. They also weren't necessarily taught shitty things about trans people, largely because a couple of decades ago most people had never heard the concept as anything but TV fantasy.

That's a very different kettle of fish than American racism, which has been with us since our inception and sunk into every pore, where literally generations of families have worn the hood, or saluted the swastika, or just routinely thought of non-whites as sub human.

So educate, if you have it in you. But educating people and holding a firm societal line against racism -- including calling it what it is -- aren't mutually exclusive. And you can't reasonably expect anyone to always be educating, unless you have the Maitreya in your pocket. I've had these discussions with my extended racist relatives, and after enough attempts, where they flatly tell you they don't care what effect it has, and that they don't believe anything you're saying because Rush told them differently, it stops being worth your limited time in this world to try and correct people who cleave to hatred.

You said it better than I ever could.
 
Wait do people really think we haven't been educating racists/moderates up until now?

No, people think we instantly shut down conversations, throw hands in front of people's faces, plug our ears and shout "RACIST!!!" as we bolt out the nearest door or window.

Quite a lot of people in this thread making assumptions that we don't talk to or attempt to educate people, and quite a lot assuming that we haven't done this for years and have seen our fair share of folks who simply aren't willing to change their minds whatsoever.
 
I don't care about the individual racist. I care about acknowledging and dismantling global White supremacy.

White supremacy tells the poor White man that he's better than the Black man.
White supremacy tells the poor White man they are allies with wealthy elite that couldn't give two shits about them.
White supremacy tells the poor White man it's ok for minorities to get beat and be abused if they get out of line for even the pettiest infraction.
White supremacy tells the poor White man that curtailing policies that would help the Black man is a terrible hand out despite the fact it'd help them as well.

Gotta deal with White supremacy. As bad as the individual racist is they're a byproduct of a much deeper systemic problem.
 

guek

Banned
Once again, you're not listening to people while demanding that they listen to racists. Me, and plenty of others have tried doing this for years and years, and i'm probably not going to stop. But it hasn't worked, it doesn't work. And I think it's incredibly unfair that you keep on labeling people with real concerns about how safe they feel by calling them smug liberals who like to name call.
Uh when did I ever label anyone a smug liberal.

Also, I strongly object to the idea that it doesn't work. We are not yet living in a post-racial society. If that's your qualifying criteria for whether or not civil discourse works, yes, it has failed completely. But the number of times I see the argument "this is what people have always done and it FAILED. IT NEVER EVER EVER EVER WORKS" breaks my heart. I don't like seeing people so discouraged or with such a distorted, narrow view of progress.

I get it. People as tired and mad as hell. But let's not pretend Trump winning the EC but losing the popular vote and being the most disliked President ever elected by a sizeable margin somehow erases more than fifty years of civil rights progress. I refuse to adopt such a defeatist attitude or base my actions and motivations as a minority on such a warped narrative.
 

Somnid

Member
I thought this study was fraudulent. I remember there being a controversy around it.

Or it might have been a similar one around gay marriage.

I could be but it also aligns with what we know about war, crime, child behavior, alcoholics, the obese, and virtually ever other dislikable human-related issue. Punishment and shaming make people belligerent and have never been shown to have a lot of success even if they are appealing things to reach for.
 
I have confronted and admitted my privilege. But it was being outside my small town white suburban upbringing that made me realize it. Now imagine that you're stuck in this situation your whole life, as many are, and you never leave it. I live on Long Island, which actually is a very diverse population (as a whole), and it took me until my 20's to finally see it. What if you're living in the middle of nowhere USA, where everyone is exactly like you? It's tough to see this.

Those are the people worth reaching.

And I say for people in a similar situation, this is the work for white allies. It's hard work, but you are the people who can best show them the empathy society needs.
 

Machina

Banned
You're talking about changing societal norms that have existed for hundreds of years.

Certainly you didn't think that bringing about this change would be easy?

> Civil War
> Emancipation Proclamation
> Holocaust
> Suffrage
> Civil Rights Movement
> Black President

Ant yet here we are. This shit is never changing.
 

Skinpop

Member
This is hardly "science". It's a well-argued point and certainly one that warrants discussion, but the study was based on transgender discrimination and Vox extrapolated it to include all minorities. Let's not put random articles on a pedestal just because it tells us what we want to hear.
I mean... do you actually think calling people out as racists and deplorables is effective? When did that ever work? I can empathize with the lack of will and energy, but trying to pass this off as being false... that's some next level denial.
 

Croatoan

They/Them A-10 Warthog
you don't get to make a flippant post dismissing people's reaction to the election then make a thread about how they're the ones further entrenching racism

My "flippant post" and this article actually coincide with my belief that the Democrat party is self destructing in very non-liberal ways. The backlash to Trump winning is eerily similar to how conservatives acted when Obama beat McCain.

I am fucking pissed off that we look like fucking religious nutjobs bemoaning the first black president for being the anti-christ.

Now is the time for self-reflection, but all i see is fingerpointing and misplaced hate. Which, as an older millennial myself, shouldn't be as surprising as it is.
 
I mean... do you actually think calling people out as racists and deplorables is effective? When did that ever work? I can empathize with the lack of will and energy, but trying to pass this off as being false... that's some next level denial.

Nobody's trying to pass this off as false. Did you even read my post?

I and a lot of other people have always engaged and will continue to engage people with extremely differing social views with civil discourse. But we know how those conversations go, we know how when you've backed them into a corner they simply say "agree to disagree", we know that at the end of the day those folks will go back to their families and friends who think the same way and the media that tells them what they've always wanted to hear and what little progress you make gets erased at the end of the day like an Etch-a-Sketch.

The thing is, Vox is not making the strawman you all are. They're not assuming that all we do is shout "RACISSSSST!! FUCKING ASSHOLE RACIST!" and run out of the room.
 

Altairre

Member
No I don't blame them, but how to make the world better and what you think you deserve and who you think are deplorable are completely different things. you can say this isn't my job all you want but these issues won't fix themselves and the only thing you can do to influence it is to make it your job to some degree.

Which is a pretty fucked up statement when you consider that "what you think you deserve" is being treated as an equal human being.
 

Lime

Member
I don't care about the individual racist. I care about acknowledging and dismantling global White supremacy.

White supremacy tells the poor White man that he's better than the Black man.
White supremacy tells the poor White man they are allies with wealthy elite that couldn't give two shits about them.
White supremacy tells the poor White man it's ok for minorities to get beat and be abused if they get out of line for even the pettiest infraction.
White supremacy tells the poor White man that curtailing policies that would help the Black man is a terrible hand out despite the fact it'd help them as well.

Gotta deal with White supremacy. As bad as the individual racist is they're a byproduct of a much deeper systemic problem.

Yeah, which really sits well with what Nepenthe posted in the other thread:

It's been time for white people to speak out against bigotry. If nothing else, this election proves what happens when good people stand aside and allow evil to waltz on into the White House. People empathize with those in closest proximity to them, and white people are on average going to be closest to white people. Challenging bigoted views in the home is one way to at least get the gears in one's head turning, assuming their opening to listening.

Granted, I'm more of a pragmatist. I'm exhausted of the idea of enlightenment and education because it's been over half a millenia and we've not gotten anywhere close to smashing bigotry into dust. People are suffering every minute that someone is having a talk with ol' Grandpappy about why slavery wasn't a good thing for black people. I want results regardless of whether or not everyone is on board the ship already. Ergo, I would rather people protest, call their senators and hit up town hall meetings, and VOTE (yes, even if you don't want to have a beer with the candidate in question) to institute legal protections, recognition, and exceptions for minorities in the meantime. I feel governmental precedents inspire change quicker than cultural and educational shifts do. As I said before, slaves weren't freed because white people ever got around to liking us. We were freed because a President signed a document saying so. Thus, I want more documents signed and more laws instituted in the meantime.

MLK, Angela Davis, Frederick Douglas, Malcom X, Huey Newton, Ida B. Wells, and all the other amazing people who fought didn't gain massive wins by coddling racists and getting them on the bandwagon, but by pushing for education and institutions to ensure rights for equality.
 
I guess ultimately the question is this- What is the best way moving forward? Is it to simply call it as it is, or is it approach it a different, less confrontational way?

Waiting for the "deep white" parts of America to catch up isn't a viable strategy, and no outpouring of empathy or new strategies of argument are likely to fix something that's endured for hundreds of years.

The fact that people get defensive shouldn't stop the rest of us from pushing for political and social change that's perfectly achievable in the short term, and we can do that better if we're honest about discussing it. If we self-censor and "coddle" we just normalize bad behavior for everyone.
 

Machina

Banned
From what I understand of those in the Rust Belt, after years of desperation kicks in.

The people in the rust belt need to get a clue. There is no helping them if they want to cling to the old as if it's not going away anyway in spite of their protests. Globalization isn't going to be stopped now.
 

Kreed

Member
No, people think we instantly shut down conversations, throw hands in front of people's faces, plug our ears and shout "RACIST!!!" as we bolt out the nearest door or window.

Quite a lot of people in this thread making assumptions that we don't talk to or attempt to educated people, and quite a lot assuming that we haven't done this for years and have seen our fair share of folks who simply aren't willing to change their minds whatsoever.

That's because "conversations" now are tweets/social media responses. So a lot of the people you're talking about are seeing this OP and thinking it applies to people labeling a tweet as racist, vs having a conversation with a person in real life.
 

BitStyle

Unconfirmed Member
I don't care about the individual racist. I care about acknowledging and dismantling global White supremacy.

White supremacy tells the poor White man that he's better than the Black man.
White supremacy tells the poor White man they are allies with wealthy elite that couldn't give two shits about them.
White supremacy tells the poor White man it's ok for minorities to get beat and be abused if they get out of line for even the pettiest infraction.
White supremacy tells the poor White man that curtailing policies that would help the Black man is a terrible hand out despite the fact it'd help them as well.

Gotta deal with White supremacy. As bad as the individual racist is they're a byproduct of a much deeper systemic problem.

Absolutely this
 

Akuun

Looking for meaning in GAF
Do people really think the nice tolerant explanations hasn't been done already?

Like what? People have tried that route for centuries. And we're still in our current position.

If it does work it's slow as molasses and doesn't effect enough people on a wide enough scale.
It is slow as molasses, but taking the high road may still help in the long run. Calling people racists, even if it's true, is effectively arguing by going "fuck you", which does nothing but further distance the two groups.

Let's say a racist family gets in an argument with a single guy who's a minority on the street. The racist parents are getting in the guy's face, while the guy is trying to be nice and reasonable.

Sure, the guy probably isn't going to get through to the parents of the family because those parents have probably been racist for decades and one conversation isn't going to sway them. But what about the kids in that family watching the argument? What if they've been told that minorities are scum their whole lives, but here they are seeing a minority acting way more reasonably than their parents currently are? Being nice has just planted the seed of doubt in those kids' heads, making them think that maybe minorities aren't the horrible beings that their parents keep saying they are. Maybe these kids will be more likely to hang out with minorities at school because of it. Maybe these kids won't grow up to be racists like their parents. That's the difference.

Now, what if the guy instead turned around and started yelling back at the parents in front of those kids, calling them racists and other names? Even if the anger is justified and the names are accurate (which they are), that behavior is confirming to the whole family that minorities are enemies and should be approached with caution. To the kids watching, that enforces the racial lines that their parents were drawing for them. It increases the chances of them growing up to be racists themselves.
 

Maxim726X

Member
> Civil War
> Emancipation Proclamation
> Holocaust
> Suffrage
> Civil Rights Movement
> Black President

Ant yet here we are. This shit is never changing.

That's not entirely fair either. Things *are* changing, just not as fast as we would like.

Again, you're taking a snapshot of what really amounts to less than 200 years. There are societies that have existed for thousands. I'm with you, I wish we were moving faster. But we are moving.
 
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