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[Audioboxer]

Well yeah, as a white man in England you're probably not going to have a lot of empathy for minorities in America being told to suck it up and always be the bigger person in the face of racism so the party can win big with sensitive, ignorant voters.

I'm not in England, and that's not what I argued either.

My arguments are around precisely what you've just done. Dismissed me, someone liberal and on the left in a snarky way which tries to marginalise what I think through something as pointless as geography and skin colour.

I wasn't addressing right wing voters. I was talking about how people on the left talk to people on the left when they don't like an opinion. Precisely what you have just done to me. Try and frame it as I have no empathy and because of how I was born and where I live my opinion must have lesser value. While unfortunately misrepresenting what I said as I wasn't addressing the right wing nasties in the first place.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

You don't need to tell him that. You don'tneed to sit there and try to educate, just treat him the way you want to be treated. Maybe it will make him rethink his attitude, maybe it won't.

So it might not help in the end but the alternative won't help either. You can't change people by attacking and shaming them. You have to understand that that is not practical at all. Once you do then we can think about what WILL help.

Please just say "we want the racist vote at your expense." We're tired of the pussyfooting

I'm not in England, and that's not what I argued either.

My arguments are around precisely what you've just done. Dismissed me, someone liberal and on the left in a snarky way which tries to marginalise what I think through something as pointless as geography and skin colour.

I wasn't addressing right wing voters. I was talking about how people on the left talk to people on the left when they don't like an opinion. Precisely what you have just done to me. Try and frame it as I have no empathy and because of how I was born and where I live my opinion must have lesser value.

My mistake, though I'd seen you say you were from England.

It seems fair to say that if you're placing more importance on racists' feelings for party goals and expecting minorities to bear the brunt and the burden for any education while also chastising us for feeling frustrated and assuming we never try to educate, you don't really care. If that's not true for you then great but there are many people for whom that is demonstrably true.

 

[HerbertBirdsfoot]

Thank you for your perspective. It's interesting to see something else than "WI voters were just about economic anxiety", for once.

I have a cousin in the UP who posted this Christian conservative thing on FB that was basically:
"Yes we have a sexist bigot in the WH that has moral failings. But really, this is giving our president so much power. It's upon us as parents to raise our children right and to love and respect others."

That's a Trump voter telling themselves not to feel bad. It made me kind of sick to see that, because it's coming from a community with an overwhelmingly high percentage of white people. They think they are personally OK but they are willfully blind to racism as a real, actual problem for people in the actual country. I don't know how you fight it, really. Living in a bubble.

 

[The Technomancer]

This is one of those things where I just need to accept that my very personal experience just isn't the norm

Pretty much all of my shitty opinions, including some fairly racist viewpoints around affirmative action, got explicitly called out by people on the internet as being shitty opinions and actually made me re-think my stances on...just about everything

I wish that worked more broadly

 

[Aikidoka]

The first study Vox sources was retracted by the journal.
http://science.sciencemag.org/content/348/6239/1100.2

Science, with the concurrence of author Donald P. Green, is retracting the 12 December 2014 Report “When contact changes minds: An experiment on transmission of support for gay equality” by LaCour and Green (1).

The reasons for retracting the paper are as follows: (i) Survey incentives were misrepresented. To encourage participation in the survey, respondents were claimed to have been given cash payments to enroll, to refer family and friends, and to complete multiple surveys. In correspondence received from Michael J. LaCour's attorney, he confirmed that no such payments were made. (ii) The statement on sponsorship was false. In the Report, LaCour acknowledged funding from the Williams Institute, the Ford Foundation, and the Evelyn and Walter Haas Jr. Fund. Per correspondence from LaCour's attorney, this statement was not true.

In addition to these known problems, independent researchers have noted certain statistical irregularities in the responses (2). LaCour has not produced the original survey data from which someone else could independently confirm the validity of the reported findings. Michael J. LaCour does not agree to this Retraction.

References

↵ M. J. LaCour, D. P. Green, Science 346, 1366 (2014).Abstract/FREE Full Text
↵ D. Broockman, J. Kalla, P. Aronow, Irregularities in LaCour (2014) (2015); http://stanford.edu/~dbroock/broockman_kalla_aronow_lg_irregularities.pdf.

EDIT: Nevermind the linked Vox article is actually talking about how this paper is fraudulent and replaced by the other study. Still, would be nice if they linked directly to the paper their referencing instead of another one of their articles that talks about it.

 

[Desparadina]

This topic comes up over and over again and it's becoming glaringly obvious that if this is the proposed plan of action then the burden of it lies on other white liberals. Constantly hearing about a white liberal's racist family is not going to get minorities like me to go out of their way to convince them otherwise. The center of this issue lies at the fact that white liberals are not doing enough to combat racism and so some of them actually have the gall to tell the people who experience it to deal with it so we can somehow win another election. Has anyone in support of this idea ever thought that maybe the reason why some minorities don't feel encouraged to vote is because of suggestions like that?

We've had to deal with decades of putting up with bigots, and I think most of us are tired of the conversation of us being the 'better' person. We have been, but we shouldn't have to stoop so low that our dignity is stripped from us, while the Democrats continue to ignore or exacerbate most of our issues all at the same time, but at least we minorities vote right? All of you who agree with this type of sentiment need to reach out to the bigots who are saying this shit and try to change them, instead of telling a minority to appease to them.

 

[Audioboxer]

Please just say "we want the racist vote at your expense." We're tired of the pussyfooting



My mistake, though I'd seen you say you were from England.

It seems fair to say that if you're placing more importance on racists' feelings for party goals and expecting minorities to bear the brunt and the burden for any education while also chastising us for feeling frustrated and assuming we never try to educate, you don't really care. If that's not true for you then great but there are many people for whom that is demonstrably true.

I absolutely don't think any of that. Or at least I don't see it as anyone's burden to carry. If you as an individual want to engage with right wing loonies, that's okay. If you don't, that's okay too. They are responsible for their own actions and beliefs and no one should be told off for calling them out when it's some of the batshit oppressive and discriminatory remarks they shout loud and clear.

The only group I've been attacking since this mess of an election is the group I call home. The left. Liberalism. Precisely because I'm unhappy with some of what I'm seeing. People have agency though, and one thing I'll never do is try to force people to change. I'll just offer my thoughts and opinions and they can be discussed, dismissed or rebutted.

On that note of agency though I also accept some people do continue to try however futile to change the bad people in the world. Call them time wasters if you want, but to go back to my initial rant don't call those people assholes and names because they approach things in a way you wouldn't. There are people in many professions and even just in life who try to scrape others away from extremism and nastiness and basically save them. You don't need to do that, but those who do and are sometimes successful aren't condoning the behaviour or sympathising. They just have their own way, maybe professional (psychologists/police forces/rehabilitation services) to try and improve society. Very often the amount of personal time, effort, sweat and tears you can put into trying to change or improve someone/society isn't worth the ends. However that is not going to stop some in society trying. People respond to things in different ways, and that is all fine. It doesn't mean anyone other than the assholes in question have the actual burden of changing themselves.

You can lead an animal to water, but you can make it drink and all that jazz. Same principal applies to anyone who does try to get through to or help extremists in the world. They have to change themselves, the burden is theirs.

 

[HerbertBirdsfoot]

The center of this issue lies at the fact that white liberals are not doing enough to combat racism and so some of them actually have the gall to tell the people who experience it to deal with it so we can somehow win another election. Has anyone in support of this idea ever thought that maybe the reason why some minorities don't feel encouraged to vote is because of suggestions like that?

Not sure if that was directed toward me. Was it? But I WANT to do more to combat racism. I don't want to tell anyone to deal with shit that absolutely shouldn't have to. Not really sure what to do or how to change attitudes of people I know. I also want to do more to get people out to vote, because voting matters.

 

[Silas Lang]

This topic comes up over and over again and it's becoming glaringly obvious that if this is the proposed plan of action then the burden of it lies on other white liberals. Constantly hearing about a white liberal's racist family is not going to get minorities like me to go out of their way to convince them otherwise. The center of this issue lies at the fact that white liberals are not doing enough to combat racism and so some of them actually have the gall to tell the people who experience it to deal with it so we can somehow win another election. Has anyone in support of this idea ever thought that maybe the reason why some minorities don't feel encouraged to vote is because of suggestions like that?

We've had to deal with decades of putting up with bigots, and I think most of us are tired of the conversation of us being the 'better' person. We have been, but we shouldn't have to stoop so low that our dignity is stripped from us, while the Democrats continue to ignore or exacerbate most of our issues all at the same time, but at least we minorities vote right? All of you who agree with this type of sentiment need to reach out to the bigots who are saying this shit and try to change them, instead of telling a minority to appease to them.

As a white liberal, I agree. This is on us. I will try to do my part.

 

[WiiredShawn]

The problem with shaming is that it 1) you have to genuinely care about how you hurt someone, or barring that, 2) you have to genuinely want the approval of the person shaming you.

For a lot of people, #2 is the only one that applies, especially when they're called racists for offending a group of people that they may have never met before. If their supervisor, or their parent, or their spouse called them out as a racist bigot, then they might be more inclined to change in response to the shame, because they value that social tie.

Where the label of racist lacks a social threat, there's no external repercussion for them. And if they don't have an internal drive to self-reflect and be empathetic, nothing is going to happen. Which is why internalizing these values at a younger age is so important. The education system needs to offer children more insight into multi-culturalism, offensive hate speech, and respecting other people.

 

[Infinite]

I'm willing to put some faith in the science. That being said the much bigger problem on the left just now is the labelling of your own people incorrectly when you have a fit of rage someone can call themselves a liberal but not think 1:1 as you do.

Egotistical authoritarianism will sink the liberals well before giving a shit about the horrible right wing nasties. Effort can be made with some of them to try and dismantle their bigotry, but the far more concerning issue in the short term is the left eating itself and the constant power tripping from egos that never get fed. They are always growing, consuming and trying to feel superior to everyone on the same side around them. Some of the snark handed out to what are otherwise companions in the fight for a progressive society is utterly perplexing.

Well its perplexing to a rational mind that accepts life is complex and even on the correct side of social progression, people will still differ and vary. Other minds are just set to always be in a state of victim hood/victomology and even when they're addressing allies if they sense any differing or dissenting opinion it must be because said ally is actually an "x". Quick, set the dogs on them and get them and their opinions shut down.

thats a interesting point but this ins't the thread for it.

 

[kaname-san]

We've had to deal with decades of putting up with bigots, and I think most of us are tired of the conversation of us being the 'better' person. We have been, but we shouldn't have to stoop so low that our dignity is stripped from us, while the Democrats continue to ignore or exacerbate most of our issues all at the same time, but at least we minorities vote right? All of you who agree with this type of sentiment need to reach out to the bigots who are saying this shit and try to change them, instead of telling a minority to appease to them.

Yeah I know it's tiring but you don't actually have to do anything. You don't need to appease or educate or reach out to those who attack you. But at least don't make the situation worse by attacking them back. It just doesn't help. It might make you feel better temporarily but that's about it.

 

[Slayven]

Yeah I know it's tiring but you don't actually have to do anything. You don't need to appease or educate or reach out to those who attack you. But at least don't make the situation worse by attacking them back. It just doesn't help. It might make you feel better temporarily but that's about it.

When do we stop tucking our tails between legs? Next racist will want an apology for being something they hate.

 

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Yeah I know it's tiring but you don't actually have to do anything. You don't need to appease or educate or reach out to those who attack you. But at least don't make the situation worse by attacking them back. It just doesn't help. It might make you feel better temporarily but that's about it.

If that racist is negatively affecting your life? Yeah, you kinda do have to do something about it. For self preservation sake.

And for self preservation sake? Sometimes that racist has got to get the hell out of your way. And in many cases, it takes too long and takes too much energy to do it the "right way"

That should be saved for people who care aboit that person.

 

[Voysa Reezun]

Yeah I know it's tiring but you don't actually have to do anything. You don't need to appease or educate or reach out to those who attack you. But at least don't make the situation worse by attacking them back. It just doesn't help. It might make you feel better temporarily but that's about it.

Nah, I think that I'm done trying to restrain myself. Those racists will probably always be racist, so fuck 'em.

 

[RichiRamjag]

Been arguing the same since the end of the election.

This isn't the way to change things. It only makes people back into a corner and hunker down.

Gonna back you up there.

There is a middle ground between a white nationalist and someone who may be ignorant on a few things. Attacking the latter immediately is fruitless.

 

[Cyframe]

Also my apologies for using your post as a response to another person.

You post deserves real responses.

This is the experience minorities go through when they first meet racism. Trying to explain why we all are equal. But people keep on deceiving themselves to think that minorities are not doing enough to get the racists on our side. "Obviously if you talk to them they will see your humanity"

Thanks. I feel like people don't understand how most of us respond. Black people and other PoC don't escalate a situation by calling a person racist unless it's a really bad one. It just doesn't happen in most cases. So to be told to stop using the term racist, it shows a level of detachment. They could ask any friend who is a minority how many times they sat through a racist situation and didn't say anything or tried to reason with them. We just don't say racist to shut down people.

We don't have as much credibility, honestly. It's difficult for me to argue that my parents supported racism by voting for Trump because everyone in the conversation is white. What the fuck do I know about racism? My opinion just isn't taken as seriously.

We still try, but... it's not very effective. At least in my experience.

You do have credibility because whiteness gives you a level of personhood and relatability that I don't have. I could say something in the kindest most neutral tone and I'm seen as being antagonistic. White people who engage with those with unsavory views of Black people and others could try to empathize our human qualities, because if it comes from me it's seen as whining or wanting to get something over on them. It isn't easy, but...the onus shouldn't just be on me.

Ignore some of these comments, had a deal like this, I beat a guy up FIRST, then we had a chat to straighten him out. Sometimes you just have to whoop that ass first to bring them back down to earth and wake them out of their idiotic frenzy, people need to realize that.

It's not that I never defended myself either. One kid called me nigger in gym class and I pushed him on the floor and he started crying. He went to the gym teacher, and she said: What did you say to him (me) and the kid said he called me a racial slur. She shrugged her shoulders and said you shouldn't call people that, and walked away from him. I didn't get in trouble. And he never called me that again.

For me, there's ignorance and then people who are ignorant on purpose. You know even at that young age that calling a Black person the n word isn't something you should do.

 

[PlayALLtheGames]

This is one of those things where I just need to accept that my very personal experience just isn't the norm

Pretty much all of my shitty opinions, including some fairly racist viewpoints around affirmative action, got explicitly called out by people on the internet as being shitty opinions and actually made me re-think my stances on...just about everything

I wish that worked more broadly

Slightly unrelated but this worked on me as well when it came to trans-phobia.

I had always accepted homosexuality because my mom had many gay friends who were around when I grew up, and she had no qualms about explaining what it was when I was young.

But when I was like 20, I made a comment on a forum - something like, "I've never had issues with gays at all, but that transsexual stuff is weird. I think something's wrong with many of those people."

Someone absolutely lay into me. I remember reading the comment and initially thinking, "Ah, whatever." Then it progressed to, "Well, they are right I probably shouldn't have said there's something wrong with those people" and finally to, "Fuck. What the hell is wrong with me for posting that?"

I don't know, it fixed me right up. I mean we're talking like in a matter of a fortnight. I think it was so effective because I basically transferred my understanding and acceptance of homosexuality to trans people, actually read more about it, and suddenly it seemed obvious I had been an ignorant piece of shit.

To this day I wish I could thank that user for setting me straight.

 

[kaname-san]

If that racist is negatively affecting your life? Yeah, you kinda do have to do something about it. For self preservation sake.

And for self preservation sake? Sometimes that racist has got to get the hell out of your way. And in many cases, it takes too long and takes too much energy to do it the "right way"

That should be saved for people who care aboit that person.

So what do you do about it then? Call them names? Try to shame them into submission? That doesn't work. If you can think of something that does work by all means, do it.

 

[Messofanego]

Regarding "exposure equals less bigotry" from the studies: I also find it mind-boggling to see so many people being fans of sports, music, and the arts with many of the amazing talents be non-White, and yet they go home and vote for Trump. And I can't even imagine what it must feel like to work so incredibly hard in your entire life and then have a sizeable portion in your audience think you are a lesser human because of your skin color or religion.

It reminds me of the Louis Theroux (sp?) visiting white supremacists in South Africa and one of the guys being a big fan of Lionel Richie (or someone similar), yet he couldn't see the disconnect between his love for a Black musical talent and his ideology of white supremacy.

That might come down to treating pop culture or fiction as fantasy and escapism and not equating with reality. Like the whole thing of liking black entertainment but when politics come into it about respecting their existence and rights, there's a cognitive disconnect because you now have to acknowledge the media you consume is made by real human beings. It comes into the whole "don't bring politics into entertainment" argument like with gamergate, sad/rabid puppies, comic books, Beyonce, etc.

Or maybe they weren't a racist their entire life so liking entertainment made by non-whites was at a time of their life where they were more tolerant and so it stuck with them because it's still enjoyable media to consume.

 

[Slayven]

So what do you do about it then? Call them names? Try to shame them into submission? That doesn't work. If you can think of something that does work by all means, do it.

Neither does taking their abuse with a smile on our faces.

 

[kaname-san]

Nah, I think that I'm done trying to restrain myself. Those racists will probably always be racist, so fuck 'em.

Restraining yourself from what? What do you think will help the situation?

 

[royalan]

The first study Vox sources was retracted by the journal.
http://science.sciencemag.org/content/348/6239/1100.2


EDIT: Nevermind the linked Vox article is actually talking about how this paper is fraudulent and replaced by the other study. Still, would be nice if they linked directly to the paper their referencing instead of another one of their articles that talks about it.

Oh look, shitty study propped up to chastise minorities.

 

[Frozenprince]

I don't understand this. I probably never will.

How many of you on GAF telling us to "just talk to them" have ever had conversations with bigots or those that hold bigoted beliefs in a frank manner, towards you or people like you?

Outright out and out bigots, they can't be turned. People who look at you and use slurs because "well it's just a word", they won't change because "you're being to sensitive, lighten up" or shit to that effect.

If me calling someone a bigot makes them react in anger and vitriol, odds are they aren't worth my time to talk too in the first place.

Sick to death of being told how to combat intolerance by a bunch of white folks who have never dealt with it nor will ever have to deal with it a day in their damn lives.

 

[kaname-san]

Neither does taking their abuse with a smile on our faces.

You don't need to smile or even interact with them. If you feel that they are not willing to listen, then you don't need to waste time on them. Focus on making your own life better.

 

[call_kotaku]

So what do you do about it then? Call them names? Try to shame them into submission? That doesn't work. If you can think of something that does work by all means, do it.

If explaining stuff to racist people worked we would've solved racism thousands of years ago.

Progress on social issues and civil rights generally involves pressing directly at the issue consistently and vigorously, because to compel people to act on it you need to make it impossible to ignore and you absolutely cannot normalize the current status quo. The "social change doesn't work if people are upset" is a terrible retcon of the civil rights movement.

 

[Frozenprince]

You don't need to smile or even interact with them. If you feel that they are not willing to listen, then you don't need to waste time on them. Focus on making your own life better.

You really don't get how prevalent intolerance and bigotry is.

It's impossible to explain to people who don't experience it. It really is.

 

[Slayven]

You don't need to smile or even interact with them. If you feel that they are not willing to listen, then you don't need to waste time on them. Focus on making your own life better.

Minorities have been doing that and yet then we get called out on not "Debating" or "reaching out". It is the ultimate catch 22

 

[Frozenprince]

Minorities have been doing that and yet then we get called out on not "Debating" or "reaching out". It is the ultimate catch 22

This is what people don't get.

There IS no right way for us to list our greivences, ever. Because they are always and without fail dismissed as the method of delivery being flawed.

We had a professional athlete sit down during a song, literally the least intrusive and aggressive protest possible, and he was still railed on by tens of millions of people.

 

[Chaos2Frozen]

I've asked this in another thread before- has anyone EVER talked someone out of racism? What's your success rate?

At best they'll stop doing it in front of you but I bet you had to get frustrated at them first for that to happen.

 

[Infinite]

Slightly unrelated but this worked on me as well when it came to trans-phobia.

I had always accepted homosexuality because my mom had many gay friends who were around when I grew up, and she had no qualms about explaining what it was when I was young.

But when I was like 20, I made a comment on a forum - something like, "I've never had issues with gays at all, but that transsexual stuff is weird. I think something's wrong with many of those people."

Someone absolutely lay into me. I remember reading the comment and initially thinking, "Ah, whatever." Then it progressed to, "Well, they are right I probably shouldn't have said there's something wrong with those people" and finally to, "Fuck. What the hell is wrong with me for posting that?"

I don't know, it fixed me right up. I mean we're talking like in a matter of a fortnight. I think it was so effective because I basically transferred my understanding and acceptance of homosexuality to trans people, actually read more about it, and suddenly it seemed obvious I had been an ignorant piece of shit.

To this day I wish I could thank that user for setting me straight.

i had the same experience on many issues not just social ones.

I think it's a personal problem for people. Most people don't see themselves as the bad guy so having their bad behavior called out by someone more times than not will result in defensiveness. In addition to that tend to interpret their behavior being called out as an indictment of their character. People simply need to be more humble and willing to accept the fact that they are going to fuck up for time to time. If no one is able to do this how in the world can they be expected to learn something and be taught. It doesn't matter how I word my criticisms, if you aren't reciprocating them it becomes a massive exercise in time wasting. We shouldn't infantilize people they have to be willing to meet us half way in order to learn and grow.

 

[kaname-san]

If explaining stuff to racist people worked we would've solved racism thousands of years ago.

Progress on social issues and civil rights generally involves pressing directly at the issue consistently and vigorously, because to compel people to act on it you need to make it impossible to ignore and you absolutely cannot normalize the current status quo. The "social change doesn't work if people are upset" is a terrible retcon of the civil rights movement.

I didn't day you should explain stuff to them or that you shouldn't be upset. Please don't put words in my mouth. I'm saying that you didn't let those feelings leaf you to becoming like them because that helps nobody.

 

[Kid Kamikaze10]

So what do you do about it then? Call them names? Try to shame them into submission? That doesn't work. If you can think of something that does work by all means, do it.

Your work and my work are very different.

Your working is converting, not mine. My work is live my life with less interfence and help others do it too.

And trust, getting the racist out of the picture has been pretty damn helpful to my work. Even peacefully!

 

[Frozenprince]

I didn't day you should explain stuff to them or that you shouldn't be upset. Please don't put words in my mouth. I'm saying that you didn't let those feelings leaf you to becoming like them because that helps nobody.

Oh don't give me that "calling someone a racist is as bad as being racist" yeah you know what I hate racists and bigots, because, newsflash, they hate my ass and actively wish for my life to be limited or for me to be beneath them.

I don't wish death on them, I don't wish that they suffer, or that their families suffer.

But you're good and god damn right that I hate them.

 

[kaname-san]

You really don't get how prevalent intolerance and bigotry is.

It's impossible to explain to people who don't experience it. It really is.

I do tho. I'm Mexican and I've been hearing it so my life.

Minorities have been doing that and yet then we get called out on not "Debating" or "reaching out". It is the ultimate catch 22

They can say whatever they want. Don't listen.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

I've asked this in another thread before- has anyone EVER talked someone out of racism? What's your success rate?

At best they'll stop doing it in front of you but I bet you had to get frustrated at them first for that to happen.

I haven't. And as someone who will shamefully admit to having been racist in my adolescence I can say that I didn't get over it by having people coddle me. Instead I went to college, got exposed to people from different cultures and experiences, and then made the decision to dispel my ignorance and openly listen to others. From my own experience I had to make the first effort to reducing my racism, not others.

 

[.JayZii]

You post that as if the same side is having the conflict of feeling nice by being racist and having to deal with the hard work of combating racism.

I think I need to work on my reading comprehension because I'm having difficulty understanding what you mean by this.

People do feel comfortable with their well-trod racist beliefs. My point was that many other people are content to feel "I'm not racist, so my work here is done", but the truth is that getting people to change their flawed view requires the uncomfortable groundwork and social interaction. Just telling people they are racist and need to stop being racist clearly isn't working. I don't have the answer, but talking to each other rather than at each other, like we do now online, is a good place to start. It's gross, uncomfortable and insulting to have to hear backwards views on race/sexuality/gender/etc and not fire back with anger, but feeding into the "us vs them" dynamic doesn't seem to be helping much.

I don't know what will work in the end. If I had a concrete answer, I'd share.

 

[Professor Beef]

You don't need to smile or even interact with them. If you feel that they are not willing to listen, then you don't need to waste time on them. Focus on making your own life better.

Spoken like someone living in a bubble.

 

[Karkador]

I get that empathy could make inroads into the problem, but what about a societal pressure from their peers to keep being racist; and misinformation and propaganda from racist sources? The scope of the study doesn't seem to account for that.

 

[NurseRedHeart]

Who would have thought that dealing with issues in a rational way would lead to real change?

 

[bishoptl]

I do tho. I'm Mexican and I've been hearing it so my life.



They can say whatever they want. Don't listen.

What is this Pollyanna ish

 

[FadedRevolution]

Who would have thought that dealing with issues in a rational way would lead to real change?

Acting as if we haven't done that shit for years.

 

[Dyson Industries]

Who would have thought that dealing with issues in a rational way would lead to real change?

That post history.

 

[Frozenprince]

"You guys don't understand, white small town communities are insular and dying. You're trapped and insulated among an echo chamber while people from the big city look at you like you're idiots. How could you possibly understand what it's like to be marginalized?"

 

[Pie and Beans]

I'm not in England, and that's not what I argued either.

My arguments are around precisely what you've just done. Dismissed me, someone liberal and on the left in a snarky way which tries to marginalise what I think through something as pointless as geography and skin colour.

I wasn't addressing right wing voters. I was talking about how people on the left talk to people on the left when they don't like an opinion. Precisely what you have just done to me. Try and frame it as I have no empathy and because of how I was born and where I live my opinion must have lesser value. While unfortunately misrepresenting what I said as I wasn't addressing the right wing nasties in the first place.

Pretty much. I guess we're still in the raw nerves period, but if positions haven't changed heading into 2017, what can we do.

I've accepted that the left requires 2-3 terms of darkness to ever approach rethinking what its doing wrong. Seeing it double down on aggressiveness and still sniping at people it once relied on as allies is just a deeply disappointing affair. Numbers. It is about increasing numbers, not thinning down to some impossible to achieve set of perfect beings.

I'm sure racism is going to be beat when the elusively precise pitched hiss of "white people" is achieved. Keep at it fam!

 

[Infinite]

Who would have thought that dealing with issues in a rational way would lead to real change?

post like this are mildly annoying. Like if this was so obvious to you why haven't you lead the way and show everyone how its done?

 

[Somnid]

I haven't. And as someone who will shamefully admit to having been racist in my adolescence I can say that I didn't get over it by having people coddle me. Instead I went to college, got exposed to people from different cultures and experiences, and then made the decision to dispel my ignorance and openly listen to others. From my own experience I had to make the first effort to reducing my racism, not others.

You probably did on a few levels though. Changing a strongly held belief requires exposure and to do that, a feeling of safety. You probably didn't go to college being yelled at for your racism, you probably just quietly picked things up as you went from people who presented themselves in a way you respect.

A brief conversation with a stranger is not how it happens, and it's a mistake to frame it in that way. It's a slow and gradual process of chipping away, making it feel okay to change and garnering respect. I wouldn't expect to change anyone, I would expect to make a small cut and set an example.

 

[Frozenprince]

Pretty much. I guess we're still in the raw nerves period, but if positions haven't changed heading into 2017, what can we do.

I've accepted that the left requires 2-3 terms of darkness to ever approach rethinking what its doing wrong. Seeing it double down on aggressiveness and still sniping at people it once relied on as allies is just a deeply disappointing affair. Numbers. It is about increasing numbers, not thinning down to some impossible to achieve set of perfect beings.

I'm sure racism is going to be beat when the elusively precise pitched hiss of "white people" is achieved. Keep at it fam!

 

[Lime]

Pretty much. I guess we're still in the raw nerves period, but if positions haven't changed heading into 2017, what can we do.

I've accepted that the left requires 2-3 terms of darkness to ever approach rethinking what its doing wrong. Seeing it double down on aggressiveness and still sniping at people it once relied on as allies is just a deeply disappointing affair. Numbers. It is about increasing numbers, not thinning down to some impossible to achieve set of perfect beings.

I'm sure racism is going to be beat when the elusively precise pitched hiss of "white people" is achieved. Keep at it fam!

If you are willing to abandon the cause of social justice because of "PC culture" or having your feelings hurt, maybe you never really were supportive of the goal anyway.

Also, aren't you the same guy who always complains about Anita Sarkeesian and PC culture run amok on gaming side?

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Pretty much. I guess we're still in the raw nerves period, but if positions haven't changed heading into 2017, what can we do.

I've accepted that the left requires 2-3 terms of darkness to ever approach rethinking what its doing wrong. Seeing it double down on aggressiveness and still sniping at people it once relied on as allies is just a deeply disappointing affair. Numbers. It is about increasing numbers, not thinning down to some impossible to achieve set of perfect beings.

I'm sure racism is going to be beat when the elusively precise pitched hiss of "white people" is achieved. Keep at it fam!

Chastise people for sniping while sniping "fam"