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[Gutek]

I'll be direct and honest. I'm a white (Jewish) Republican, I don't have a racist bone in my body. I live in Southern California and can count the number of white friends I have on my hands.
This election was tough for me, I was a Swing Vote. I went back and forth in my mind between Hillary and Donald Trump.

I started to hear things, when Hillary called Trump supporters deplorable, I thought of my friends and family that support Trump who were also not racist. I began to lean towards Trump.

When friends and family who are liberal began to directly insult my other friends and family who are Republican, I noticed that my family who are Republican we're not arguing back but still being called out and tagged in mean videos and meme's. Again I learned a little more towards Trump.

Although I'm Jewish a lot of my family is Christian. When comments were made about Christians trying to destroy the nation. I remember that my family are good people and they don't want to destroy the nation. And every time I heard an insult along those lines I leaned a little more towards Trump.

When people started talking about Trump supporters being unintelligent and stupid, I remembered that a lot of my family members who are Republican, who work hard. Some owned businesses, while my brother is a welder who went through hell to get his certificate, spent his savings to strive to get a better position in the work force and works extremely hard. I started to get angry and leaned a little more towards Trump.

These little things and many more over time bothered me enough that I supported Trump. My vote was not set in stone, but the things this article talks about doesn't just apply to changing people who are racist. I am not a racist, I'm Jewish and I don't have room to be racist, I hear racial comments on my own enough. But after a while of hearing people I know to be good being slandered just for being in a political party, a lot of which were swing votes as well, I got fed up real quick. And it was clear where I needed to stand.

When I saw that a group of people (Democrats) who claimed their entire message is based around tolerance and love begin display intolerance and hatred, I begin doubting everything else that their messages stood for as well.

This post might make some people mad, might make me unpopular. But it is the truth, and it matters. I figured it was worth noting that there is another side of trump supporters that people keep forgetting about.

You are one dumb motherfucker.

"People told me I was a racist, so I decided to vote for a racist to prove them wrong."

 

[Chaos2Frozen]

I haven't. And as someone who will shamefully admit to having been racist in my adolescence I can say that I didn't get over it by having people coddle me. Instead I went to college, got exposed to people from different cultures and experiences, and then made the decision to dispel my ignorance and openly listen to others. From my own experience I had to make the first effort to reducing my racism, not others.

That happened to me too. Although for me it was the case of being a majority in my country but a minority in another.

 

[Audioboxer]

Pretty much. I guess we're still in the raw nerves period, but if positions haven't changed heading into 2017, what can we do.

I've accepted that the left requires 2-3 terms of darkness to ever approach rethinking what its doing wrong. Seeing it double down on aggressiveness and still sniping at people it once relied on as allies is just a deeply disappointing affair. Numbers. It is about increasing numbers, not thinning down to some impossible to achieve set of perfect beings.

I'm sure racism is going to be beat when the elusively precise pitched hiss of "white people" is achieved. Keep at it fam!

I can empathise 110% with people being upset and raw. I can go to bed and Trump isn't my president. That is a privileged position many across the ocean from me can't enjoy.

What is apparent in the UK is the left is failing in many similar ways to how it just has in America. It's not a coincidence, there are similar patterns of failure. Brexit isn't the same as Trump, but some of the failings of the left to avoid a country marginally voting in favour of it fucking itself are apparent.

Heck across the EU in general right wing parties are on the rise.

 

[Frozenprince]

Chastise people for sniping while sniping "fam"

Writes itself really.

 

[Infinite]

I can empathise 110% with people being upset and raw. I can go to bed and Trump isn't my president. That is a privileged position many across the ocean from me can't enjoy.

What is apparent in the UK is the left is failing in many similar ways to how it just has in America. It's not a coincidence, there are similar patterns of failure. Brexit isn't the same as Trump, but some of the failings of the left to avoid a country marginally voting in favour of it fucking itself are apparent.

Heck across the EU in general right wing parties are on the rise.

but you dont have a problem with the attitude demonstrated in that post?

 

[nynt9]

I've asked this in another thread before- has anyone EVER talked someone out of racism? What's your success rate?

At best they'll stop doing it in front of you but I bet you had to get frustrated at them first for that to happen.

Having been raised in a muslim country that was also pretty ethnically homogeneous, I had some pretty poor views on women and no experience with other races, which lead to me saying ignorant stuff quite frequently. When I moved away from the country, over the years, my liberal friends always showed me understanding and taught me where I was wrong. Thanks to their patience and compassion I'm exceedingly liberal and completely changed my views and I'm ashamed of who I used to be. I even participate in feminist and anti-racial activism. I've been called a SJW many times online. However, as a result of my experiences, I also recognize that not every person is inherently bad, and I try to educate people if I can. The other day, a coworker of mine said some messed up sexist thing. I could have called him out very blatantly, but that would just make him not talk to me again. Instead I struck up a conversation and asked him why he thinks that way, and it was soon clear that he realized he said something wrong and he apologized. Now we have more rapport than before, and I also have a platform to talk to him more and change his mind on issues. If I had just shut him down at that moment, he would just get angry at me.

I understand that this is kind of a best case scenario and not how it always works, and I get that some people are pretty disingenuous and don't want to even talk about it. Hell, I've received my own share of discrimination despite being white passing because of my origin. But when I try to start a dialogue with people I usually get some footing with some of them. I think there's a case-by-case line to walk in these situations and there is no singular solution, but just shouting at people over it has a near zero chance of achieving anything, whereas talking to them and trying to educate them actually has a chance of success, however low it is.

 

[Frozenprince]

I can empathise 110% with people being upset and raw. I can go to bed and Trump isn't my president. That is a privileged position many across the ocean from me can't enjoy.

What is apparent in the UK is the left is failing in many similar ways to how it just has in America. It's not a coincidence, there are similar patterns of failure. Brexit isn't the same as Trump, but some of the failings of the left to avoid a country marginally voting in favour of it fucking itself are apparent.

Heck across the EU in general right wing parties are on the rise.

The dude in that post closed his statements with a sarcastic and dismissive derision at black people by trying to use slang to be whatever the fuck he was trying to be.

So.

 

[Audioboxer]

but you dont have a problem with the attitude demonstrated in that post?

The poster can defend themselves. I don't post like that and all I speak for is my own opinions. I addressed the valid point of sympathising with how raw wounds still are from the election as it is something I recognise.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

I can empathise 110% with people being upset and raw. I can go to bed and Trump isn't my president. That is a privileged position many across the ocean from me can't enjoy.

When I brought this point up you got offended

 

[Miles X]

Neither is "lol white people". It's just antagonistic to them (as true as it sometimes is).

As always, the innocent party sometimes needs to be the one to hold out the olive branch/make an effort, even though the other party doesn't deserve it.

Changing peoples minds/opinions as much as we can is the best way forward though.

 

[Infinite]

The poster can defend themselves. I don't post like that and all I speak for is my own opinions. I addressed the valid point of sympathising with how raw wounds still are from the election as it is something I recognise.

I posed this question to you because our post felt like tacit agreement with theirs.

 

[Audioboxer]

When I brought this point up you got offended

My skin colour has nothing to do with disliking Trump and empathising with people who have him as their president. It wasn't the greatest idea to start your post with my skin colour, hence how it didn't derive the best of replies from me.

I posed this question to you because our post felt like tacit agreement with theirs.

No I don't agree posting in the way they did was adding anything useful other than the part I addressed.

 

[Pie and Beans]

I see people still aren't picking up on the sub-narrative of this thread being maybe constantly treating people actually on the side against racism and sexism with some broad brush bullshit aggression is why you're on the losing side and everything seems to be slipping away faster than the polar icecaps.

You are one dumb motherfucker.

"People told me I was a racist, so I decided to vote for a racist to prove them wrong."

The "I voted for the side that didn't call me a dumb motherfucker" bumper sticker will be all the rage come 2020 I see.

Get it all out, though. Bring your adult temperament to 2017 or beyond though if you don't want to stay losing bigly.

 

[Vicetrailia]

I think the people who should be coddled mostly do. That rust belt just needs someone to promise even more prosperity, not coddlment. People who should be coddled let themselves be known to you. Like Glenn Beck was at the coddling phase at some point. But before he found it upon himself to turn it around? Nope.

Also in a world where people react to talking about racism or disenfranchisement by shutting dowm, it's more like people have to be let themselves known that they can be changed. But people are willing to educate them anyway.

 

[Professor Beef]

Neither is "lol white people". It's just antagonistic to them (as true as it sometimes is).

As always, the innocent party sometimes needs to be the one to hold out the olive branch/make an effort, even though the other party doesn't deserve it.

Changing peoples minds/opinions as much as we can is the best way forward though.

This has been happening for decades. Literal, actual decades. How long does it need to keep happening before real sweeping change is made?

 

[Frozenprince]

I see people still aren't picking up on the sub-narrative of this thread being maybe constantly treating people actually on the side against racism and sexism with some broad brush bullshit aggression is why you're on the losing side and everything seems to be slipping away faster than the polar icecaps.



The "I voted for the side that didn't call me a dumb motherfucker" bumper sticker will be all the rage come 2020 I see.

Get it all out, though. Bring your adult temperament to 2017 or beyond though if you don't want to stay losing bigly.

Fun.

I'd like to point out, for the thousandth time, that we have been reaching out for decades. Centuries in some cases. And progress can be tracked in single digit percentage points.

 

[call_kotaku]

I can empathise 110% with people being upset and raw. I can go to bed and Trump isn't my president. That is a privileged position many across the ocean from me can't enjoy.

What is apparent in the UK is the left is failing in many similar ways to how it just has in America. It's not a coincidence, there are similar patterns of failure. Brexit isn't the same as Trump, but some of the failings of the left to avoid a country marginally voting in favour of it fucking itself are apparent.

Heck across the EU in general right wing parties are on the rise.

I don't understand how you can blame the left for the rise of the radical right across the West in the last decade. There's a historical pattern of people turning to these sorts of ideologies when they feel like they've been failed by democracy and the capitalist establishment, but pretending like it wouldn't have happened if people weren't loudly angry about their oppression is disingenuous.

People who complain about liberals being extremely critical of each other and always finding fault in others' opinions don't understand how discourse works. Academics will go in on each other, and people don't discuss things to find consensus, they discuss ideas to develop and expand them. Everybody who calls me on being wrong is another opportunity for me reevaluate my views, and everybody who calls me a bigot is another opportunity for me to learn to be a better person. The reason the left is progressive is because we don't walk on eggshells trying not to hurt each others feelings, despite the common misconceptions about liberals.

Calling the discourse on the left toxic is like calling science cynical because scientists are always trying to disprove each others' ideas.

 

[Frozenprince]

This has been happening for decades. Literal, actual decades. How long does it need to keep happening before real sweeping change is made?

Right? Like we've all been sitting on our hands until literally just this moment.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

I see people still aren't picking up on the sub-narrative of this thread being maybe constantly treating people actually on the side against racism and sexism with some broad brush bullshit aggression is why you're on the losing side and everything seems to be slipping away faster than the polar icecaps.

So

This post is kind and well mannered "fam"?

My skin colour has nothing to do with disliking Trump and empathising with people who have him as their president. It wasn't the greatest idea to start your post with my skin colour, hence how it didn't derive the best of replies from me

Acknowledging that your being white makes it more difficult for you to empathize with the constant racism minorities in America face shouldn't be considered an insult.

 

[Alligatorjandro]

So when a racist calls someone a racial slur, how should they respond to the racist?

 

[IrishNinja]

This topic comes up over and over again and it's becoming glaringly obvious that if this is the proposed plan of action then the burden of it lies on other white liberals. Constantly hearing about a white liberal's racist family is not going to get minorities like me to go out of their way to convince them otherwise. The center of this issue lies at the fact that white liberals are not doing enough to combat racism and so some of them actually have the gall to tell the people who experience it to deal with it so we can somehow win another election. Has anyone in support of this idea ever thought that maybe the reason why some minorities don't feel encouraged to vote is because of suggestions like that?

We've had to deal with decades of putting up with bigots, and I think most of us are tired of the conversation of us being the 'better' person. We have been, but we shouldn't have to stoop so low that our dignity is stripped from us, while the Democrats continue to ignore or exacerbate most of our issues all at the same time, but at least we minorities vote right? All of you who agree with this type of sentiment need to reach out to the bigots who are saying this shit and try to change them, instead of telling a minority to appease to them.

i absolutely agree that it's not on minorities, but if you think me going to my irish thanksgiving and again trying to talk - however openly - about why supporting platforms of racism, misogyny, homophobia, islamophoba etc is a poor choice, than i welcome you to take that sisyphean task for me. you might get some drinks out of it, but i assure you, you're not winning any hearts & minds.

and that's kinda the point - trying to meet that shit halfway has, for quite a while now, gotten us nowhere. all this post-election chicken littleing that we need to change our tone & surely that'll bring folks around is asinine...if someone's logic is that a racist element of trump's base (which that person clearly doesn't identify as) is called on it once & they decided to prove that narrative wrong by openly supporting such a platform, there's not a real conversation to be had there.

i get framing it like it's our duty to fix that, but in all honesty, that energy would best be used on actual efforts of merit/change. nevermind the notion that tolerating/abiding that shit isn't exactly doing minorities any good either.

When do we stop tucking our tails between legs? Next racist will want an apology for being something they hate.

seriously, this
i've a close friend who's a social worker. she's good at not using "social justice language" because she understands white fragility & points out that any hint of pointing out privilege is met with scorn (because us whites can be broke too, etc etc), and given her position, i admire her tenacity & understanding.

i'm not here for this apologist shit. the notion that we'll lose again in 2020 if we don't want to honestly engage a group that just wants things magically turned back into a period of their childhood is not only piss poor logic, it's rooted in no facts from this election either.

You don't need to smile or even interact with them. If you feel that they are not willing to listen, then you don't need to waste time on them. Focus on making your own life better.

Spoken like someone living in a bubble.

seriously - yeah, it's just that easy, just hit a button & put people in your life on ignore, minorities. what's the problem here?

I'm sure racism is going to be beat when the elusively precise pitched hiss of "white people" is achieved. Keep at it fam!

well said, as ever man. think i'll go buy my racist cousins some new balances and listen to their anecdotal tales of how the world works for them, that's the ticket!

 

[FadedRevolution]

So when a racist calls someone a racial slur, how should they respond to the racist?

Thank you sir, may I have another?

 

[Breads]

I see people still aren't picking up on the sub-narrative of this thread being maybe constantly treating people actually on the side against racism and sexism with some broad brush bullshit aggression is why you're on the losing side and everything seems to be slipping away faster than the polar icecaps.



The "I voted for the side that didn't call me a dumb motherfucker" bumper sticker will be all the rage come 2020 I see.

Get it all out, though. Bring your adult temperament to 2017 or beyond though if you don't want to stay losing bigly.

I wouldn't call it losing. We got the raw numbers on our side which counts for something. We just got got due to a technicality... as people pretending to be allies in the same cause are doing their best to seed division and confusion.

Because they have our best interest in mind ofc.

 

[shinra-bansho]

I'm sorry straight white people who hate minorities. You keep being you. You're a star. Let's be friends.

Did that work? Will they vote progressively now? Awesome. Mission accomplished.

 

[Frozenprince]

So

This post is kind and well mannered "fam"?

"Stay losing liberals"

Gee you know what.

It's funny, how calling bigots out didn't make Romney win, or McCain.

But Trump wins and suddenly "LOL STUPID LEFT".

Mhm.

 

[BlackJace]

I see people still aren't picking up on the sub-narrative of this thread being maybe constantly treating people actually on the side against racism and sexism with some broad brush bullshit aggression is why you're on the losing side and everything seems to be slipping away faster than the polar icecaps.



The "I voted for the side that didn't call me a dumb motherfucker" bumper sticker will be all the rage come 2020 I see.

Get it all out, though. Bring your adult temperament to 2017 or beyond though if you don't want to stay losing bigly.

Ah yes, the ones arguing against bigotry need to bring their adult temperament going forward. Do you not understand how odd this sounds?

Decades of vying peacefully for equality being met with indifferent and/or outright contempt occasionally results in heated backlash. Forgive the oppressed if once and a while they do not wish to lecture the person that actively promotes bigotry.

 

[rec0ded1]

So when a racist calls someone a racial slur, how should they respond to the racist?

"I feel your pain and understand where you are coming from. If my existence has offended you, please put yourself in my shoes when you get a moment" according to some in here.

 

[Gutek]

"We wanna deport you, put you on lists, ban you, disenfranchise and outlaw you, stop and frisk you, stop you from voting, and you better be nice to us."

Fuck you.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

I'm not gonna call people racist in an argument but I also am not going to try convince racists that the lives of minorities matter. Fuck that. I also have a life to live that I value and shouldn't have to defend grom bullshit. All the power to those that want to argue and w/e but I'm not gonna bother.

If Trump supporters really need to have it systematically explained as to why his dog whistles and rhetoric are demeaning, I'm not gonna be entertain that. Naw man. You got what you wanted, next election clearly everyone else needs to organize better.

 

[Infinite]

Neither is "lol white people". It's just antagonistic to them (as true as it sometimes is).

As always, the innocent party sometimes needs to be the one to hold out the olive branch/make an effort, even though the other party doesn't deserve it.

Changing peoples minds/opinions as much as we can is the best way forward though.

even if you change "you're fucked up" to "that was fucked up" you will probably be met with the same outcome. People on the other side have to be willing to meet you halfway. They gotta be humble or else no one will be taught anything. In addition you can rest this on the shoulders of the oppressed who are just trying to carve out some peace in this world. Take up the task yourself. Influence people in your social circles and be willing to grow and learn yourself. Don't just wag your finger and tell people how its really done. Practice what you preach.

 

[Jonm1010]

Reading this thread and others it seems like there is this false choice emerging and leading to this pitting of liberals against one another.

That false choice being framing that you can't pursue social justice and minority rights if you attempt to empathize and appeal to rural voters that embraced Trump. So any talk of making that appeal, any appeal, is viewed as an automatic de-prioritizing of their issues.

When in reality what is being argued by people is not to prioritize the rural voter over minorities, but to reach out with messaging that appeals to the better nature of these people like Obama and Bernie did. Focused on areas where party ideals and policy align with their issues.

Obama showed how this can be done, Bernie mapped a convincing blueprint of what ideals already present in the party can address some of the underlying grievances without compromising core values.

 

[Audioboxer]

I don't understand how you can blame the left for the rise of the radical right across the West in the last decade. There's a historical pattern of people turning to these sorts of ideologies when they feel like they've been failed by democracy and the capitalist establishment, but pretending like it wouldn't have happened if people weren't loudly angry about their oppression is disingenuous.

People who complain about liberals being extremely critical of each other and always finding fault in others' opinions don't understand how discourse works. Academics will go in on each other, and people don't discuss things to find consensus, they discuss ideas to develop and expand them. Everybody who calls me on being wrong is another opportunity for me reevaluate my views, and everybody who calls me a bigot is another opportunity for me to learn to be a better person. The reason the left is progressive is because we don't walk on eggshells trying not to hurt each others feelings, despite the common misconceptions about liberals.

Calling the discourse on the left toxic is like calling science cynical because scientists are always trying to disprove each others' ideas.

I see part of the reason for the rise of such parties isn't always a massive slide in voter base, but like what has happened in America. Liberals become disenfranchised and either stay at home, or instead of playing into the multiple failed 2 or 3 party systems in most countries they start voting independent. Which takes a vote from either one of the huge parties.

As much as a crapshoot as Brexit was it had tons of the same behaviour as this American election. Call everyone a racist and fucking asshole who isn't 1:1 with you. The left aren't acting like scientists because scientists often leave emotion at the door and just deal with why's, how's and facts. I don't expect that from humans and politics, but I do expect less hostility on the left for their own people, or people who can genuinely be swung to this side. Just above because I didn't go ham on a poster it's automatically assumed I am aiding and abetting. Where as the simple fact was I replied to someone who quoted me and added a simple addendum to my original posts which was I can empathise that wounds are raw.

People were as they quite often are on the left just now desperate to trip someone up and try to set the hounds on them. This is scaring off some people from as you said above just trying to disprove ideas. It's not just a battle of ideas when there is a constant want for blood.

 

[nynt9]

So when a racist calls someone a racial slur, how should they respond to the racist?

Thank you sir, may I have another?

The snark doesn't really help meaningful discussion, you know right?

When I was called a terrorist simply because of being from a muslim country (not even religious myself) once, I said "Do you realize that that's hurtful? What did I do to make you think that way?" it immediately disarmed the person and they were taken aback. They had to take a step back realize what they said and it changed the tone of the conversation afterwards.

Doesn't always work obviously, but works more often than just shutting them out.

 

[Seductivpancakes]

So when a racist calls someone a racial slur, how should they respond to the racist?

Tell them to let you have it till they're all racist'd out.

Then the healing can begin!

 

[IrishNinja]

I see people still aren't picking up on the sub-narrative of this thread being maybe constantly treating people actually on the side against racism and sexism with some broad brush bullshit aggression is why you're on the losing side and everything seems to be slipping away faster than the polar icecaps.

The "I voted for the side that didn't call me a dumb motherfucker" bumper sticker will be all the rage come 2020 I see.

Get it all out, though. Bring your adult temperament to 2017 or beyond though if you don't want to stay losing bigly.

oh yeah, the 46% that showed up to vote and lost the popular vote against a controversial candidate, big time losers there, guess we should chuck all social progress in the bushes fam

how i long for the adult temperament of the american right. and once again, you've yet to point to a single thing showing the one-time use of "deplorable" as deciding this election, but we're post-facts now
is this performance art? do you really believe this mess?

This has been happening for decades. Literal, actual decades. How long does it need to keep happening before real sweeping change is made?

i'm not gonna be the 8th person to post that fantastic MLK quote on white liberal "allies" who think it's their job to tell another man to be calm & wait for the right time for their freedom, am i? cause it's dead on here

I'm sorry straight white people who hate minorities. You keep being you. You're a star. Let's be friends.

Did that work? Will they vote progressively now? Awesome. Mission accomplished.

well not with that attitude, no
just one apology, and nothing citing your close-minded elitism? try again, fam

 

[The Lamp]

So much misunderstanding in this thread.

As I've said before, this is established social psychology principles. The only way to change prejudice over time is consistent, calm, repetitive truth exposure over time. Not over night. Takes lots of patience and education. Insults and anger entrench prejudice further.

Doesn't really matter if you don't believe it's your job to do so, or how you don't feel like you like this research, or what. Truth is, that's how it works.

Your actions can either entrench prejudice further, be part of the education process, or do nothing.

It's not your responsibility to educate people. You don't have to. But social psychology tells us HOW and WHY people behave the way they do.

It's satisfying to tell a racist or homophobe to fuck off but it doesn't help anything. But for the sake of your own sanity, it may be totally warranted to isolate yourself from these people.

 

[Pie and Beans]

This has been happening for decades. Literal, actual decades. How long does it need to keep happening before real sweeping change is made?

Fun.

I'd like to point out, for the thousandth time, that we have been reaching out for decades. Centuries in some cases. And progress can be tracked in single digit percentage points.

Yeah, shit sucks. It'll be more centuries to go too since there ain't no shortcuts to this shit. You push too hard, the pendulum comes back. Worse really is its mainly 'white people' constanting hissing "white people" and whatever that are to blame for the birth of the opposite and greater reaction.

Patience and slow methodical change is a fucking metaphysical concept I know when guns are getting pulled on you. We were only just fucking dropping boulders on each others heads a couple of weeks ago species wise and its a long goddam haul. Reversing and doing donuts isn't gonna help though.

 

[Professor Beef]

Right? Like we've all been sitting on our hands until literally just this moment.

Well everyone already knows that the Lord Martin Luther King Jr. was the only one to get people off their feet! And when he was assassinated died on the way back to his home planet, it finally made the law change.

So when a racist calls someone a racial slur, how should they respond to the racist?

Clearly you should offer them advice on how to deliver a true zinger.

 

[RDreamer]

Slightly unrelated but this worked on me as well when it came to trans-phobia.

I had always accepted homosexuality because my mom had many gay friends who were around when I grew up, and she had no qualms about explaining what it was when I was young.

But when I was like 20, I made a comment on a forum - something like, "I've never had issues with gays at all, but that transsexual stuff is weird. I think something's wrong with many of those people."

Someone absolutely lay into me. I remember reading the comment and initially thinking, "Ah, whatever." Then it progressed to, "Well, they are right I probably shouldn't have said there's something wrong with those people" and finally to, "Fuck. What the hell is wrong with me for posting that?"

I don't know, it fixed me right up. I mean we're talking like in a matter of a fortnight. I think it was so effective because I basically transferred my understanding and acceptance of homosexuality to trans people, actually read more about it, and suddenly it seemed obvious I had been an ignorant piece of shit.

To this day I wish I could thank that user for setting me straight.

This is one of those things where I just need to accept that my very personal experience just isn't the norm

Pretty much all of my shitty opinions, including some fairly racist viewpoints around affirmative action, got explicitly called out by people on the internet as being shitty opinions and actually made me re-think my stances on...just about everything

I wish that worked more broadly

I'm just gonna pipe up and say the same sort of thing happened with me. I grew up conservative and entered the internet as a homophobic/transphobic dickbag. I said some stuff very much like PlayALLtheGames here, and talked about how being gay was gross and trans people were just weird etc. It was hateful, hurtful stuff, and I really think if people pussyfooted around it maybe I wouldn't have changed. People called me out and told me what I was saying was not right. I was being homophobic.

Nowadays I've marched in/went to Pride events and and donated to trans specific causes.

Maybe part of the switch was because I ultimately could empathize with them, being someone that was picked on a lot and marginalized throughout school. I dunno. I just know that part of why I'm aggressive with people and call out their shit is because that's exactly how I changed.

 

[Con_Smith]

I don't understand this. I probably never will.

How many of you on GAF telling us to "just talk to them" have ever had conversations with bigots or those that hold bigoted beliefs in a frank manner, towards you or people like you?

Outright out and out bigots, they can't be turned. People who look at you and use slurs because "well it's just a word", they won't change because "you're being to sensitive, lighten up" or shit to that effect.

If me calling someone a bigot makes them react in anger and vitriol, odds are they aren't worth my time to talk too in the first place.

Sick to death of being told how to combat intolerance by a bunch of white folks who have never dealt with it nor will ever have to deal with it a day in their damn lives.

Honest to god truth I've swayed some good old boys over a blunt and some chill music. Some truly believe in the principal's of the party and not the hate. The problem doesn't lie in the conversation, it's the lies.

See the blind screen isn't getting all the racists and we'll see people on the same page, its the lack of understanding outside your bubble. Most minorities in America are used to seeing the other side of the street through white washed media and day to day life, you really can't miss the opportunity to understand why working class whites are angry. He'll racists have no problem telling you what's wrong where and who. The issue is pandering to the lowest denominator has trueluly fucked us having a conversation and now that Cannon and Breitbart are expanding its only a matter of time before the ignorant screw the informed for real.

 

[Brian Griffin]

I've asked this in another thread before- has anyone EVER talked someone out of racism? What's your success rate?

At best they'll stop doing it in front of you but I bet you had to get frustrated at them first for that to happen.

My great aunt posted some image on FB about how we need to take OUR country back from Muslims who want to force everyone to obey THEIR laws. She'd posted pro-US troops stuff before so I figured that'd be a good angle to start with. I posted something to the effect of "This image is crazy racist and I'm sure the many Muslim Americans in OUR military who fight to protect OUR country would take serious offense to it. You should be ashamed for having shared it." Her response was basically "Yeah, you're right. It is terrible." I haven't seen many posts by her since, so maybe she blocked me from seeing posts but maybe not?

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

The snark doesn't really help meaningful discussion, you know right?

When I was called a terrorist simply because of being from a muslim country (not even religious myself) once, I said "Do you realize that that's hurtful? What did I do to make you think that way?" it immediately disarmed the person and they were taken aback. They had to take a step back realize what they said and it changed the tone of the conversation afterwards.

Doesn't always work obviously, but works more often than just shutting them out.

Honestly it's nice that you're patient and thatvit worked out for you, but that's the exception and not the rule.

You have threads full of people who consider themselves liberal and compassionate who refuse to confront racism in people they know and respect, how often do you think it's going to work out between perfect strangers?

 

[Pai Pai Master]

"We wanna deport you, put you on lists, ban you, disenfranchise and outlaw you, stop and frisk you, stop you from voting, and you better be nice to us."

Fuck you.

You left out the increasingly common "we want to kill you," as if black people and other minorities are somehow in a better position to stand up to hatred and racism in 2016.

 

[Infinite]

My great aunt posted some image on FB about how we need to take OUR country back from Muslims who want to force everyone to obey THEIR laws. She'd posted pro-US troops stuff before so I figured that'd be a good angle to start with. I posted something to the effect of "This image is crazy racist and I'm sure the many Muslim Americans in OUR military who fight to protect OUR country would take serious offense to it. You should be ashamed for having shared it." Her response was basically "Yeah, you're right. It is terrible." I haven't seen many posts by her since, so maybe she blocked me from seeing posts but maybe not?

I was told never to use that word by gaf when confronting someone in these situations

I'm being flippant of course but this example runs counter to what the study is saying right?

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

And now we have resentment for other white people who actually step up against racism.

Good times "fam"

 

[Frozenprince]

Honest to god truth I've swayed some good old boys over a blunt and some chill music. Some truly believe in the principal's of the party and not the hate. The problem doesn't lie in the conversation, it's the lies.

See the blind screen isn't getting all the racists and we'll see people on the same page, its the lack of understanding outside your bubble. Most minorities in America are used to seeing the other side of the street through white washed media and day to day life, you really can't miss the opportunity to understand why working class whites are angry. He'll racists have no problem telling you what's wrong where and who. The issue is pandering to the lowest denominator has trueluly fucked us having a conversation and now that Cannon and Breitbart are expanding its only a matter of time before the ignorant screw the informed for real.

I'm from a rural dead factory town so no I fully understand why people are pissed the jobs ain't coming back.

But they ain't coming back.

Taking out that anger on other people and "they'll find ways to deal with it, all that matters to me is that my $30/h factory job with a pension plan and benefits comes back" isn't okay, nor is it something I can sympathize with.

 

[Messofanego]

So when a racist calls someone a racial slur, how should they respond to the racist?

White Fragility Training

 

[FadedRevolution]

The snark doesn't really help meaningful discussion, you know right?

When I was called a terrorist simply because of being from a muslim country (not even religious myself) once, I said "Do you realize that that's hurtful? What did I do to make you think that way?" it immediately disarmed the person and they were taken aback. They had to take a step back realize what they said and it changed the tone of the conversation afterwards.

Doesn't always work obviously, but works more often than just shutting them out.

Look I'm glad you have the patience to deal with that bullshit. Congrats to you but I will be damned if I have to stand and make somebody feel comfortable about their racism. I should not have to take that shit and I won't. For people in this thread to act as all we have done is yell and scream at folks and ignore decades and centuries of history of extending an olive branch to people and then wonder question why we have the right to be to be angry and tell us we need to watch ourselves and have empathy in their ignorance is some bullshit. So fuck them.

 

[GorillaJu]

Oh god I feel so vindicated reading this.

 

[Ekai]

I have little to no empathy for racist, sexist, homophobic, transphobic, etc. etc. bigoted individuals who want to actively get rid of the rights of others. Why should I? They have never wanted to change in my experience. And they never will change. We shouldn't coddle their shitty behaviors. All these people want is to bring suffering to others. Especially when they're already fairly damn well off themselves. Let the righties think they're suffering. They're the ones maliciously out to ruin other people's lives. Screw their "fuck you, got mine" attitude.
I have asked so often now why I should ever try to change their views when they never change and it only endangers my life to do so. Have not gotten a single response. I just want a genuine response on this. That's all.