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[Tieno]

Shane has been splooging all over Ryan, embarrassing at times. Ryan, however, always comes off as a nice guy whenever I hear him, very open and actually makes me want to play MGS4 but then I hear from Garnett how convoluted the UI and stuff is...which makes me think of MGO, which I did not like at all.

I'm sad that Shawn left 1up yours, he brings the depth, the substance, the needed bigger perspective, is very adept at cutting through BS and just a very good debater. He draws from sources others rarely if ever do and 1up yours is poorer for it.

 

[traveler]

I don't know what to say here. Before MGS4, I was sure I'd be "too old for that crap" and over cutscenes to enjoy MGS4's story. I also thought the controls would end up in the same state of unintuitive-ness the others were and that the gameplay would, once again, feel broad, yet shallow, but, honestly, I've REALLY liked the game. I'm not ready to side with the absolute worshippers yet, though. (I really hate the two party system that goes on here) Guess I'll just step back and watch for now.

One thing I will comment on, though, is the instuction thing. Yes, if a person has trouble getting the game's controls and truly wishes to enjoy the game, they should read the manual (or look up the crap in game) but there is such a thing as good design and a part of that is insuring your audience is at least familiar with their capabilities before throwing them into conflict. It's a small complaint, to be sure, but I don't feel Garnett was in the wrong for criticizing the game for its lack of handholding. (Which, while often used in a negative sense, is needed more for this series' controls than any other.)

BTW, Shawn, what Act are you on? Just curious to see how you to react to this game.

 

[Guts & Puck]

The podcast was a borefest IMO (especially Shane splooging) but at least the thread delivered.

 

[Kintaro]

I'm sad that Shawn left 1up yours, he brings the depth, the substance, the needed bigger perspective, is very adept at cutting through BS and just a very good debater. He draws from sources others rarely if ever do and 1up yours is poorer for it.

There's a time and place for all of those things, and going from some of Garnett's comments in this particular show, 1up Yours is not that place. Which is actually perfectly fine.

One thing I will comment on, though, is the instuction thing. Yes, if a person has trouble getting the game's controls and truly wishes to enjoy the game, they should read the manual (or look up the crap in game) but there is such a thing as good design and a part of that is insuring your audience is at least familiar with their capabilities before throwing them into conflict. It's a small complaint, to be sure, but I don't feel Garnett was in the wrong for criticizing the game for its lack of handholding. (Which, while often used in a negative sense, is needed more for this series' controls than any other.)

The game does hold your hand through the beginning of Act 1. There's also a handy guide, with pictures into of the game itself. Not to mention a firing range. To be honest, anybody who has been playing 3rd person shooters should be able to do the basics in MGS4. You always hold one button to ready your run and one button to shoot. You push a button against object to take cover. Blah blah.

 

[traveler]

There's a time and place for all of those things, and going from some of Garnett's comments in this particular show, 1up Yours is not that place. Which is actually perfectly fine.



The game does hold your hand through the beginning of Act 1. There's also a handy guide, with pictures into of the game itself. Not to mention a firing range. To be honest, anybody who has been playing 3rd person shooters should be able to do the basics in MGS4. You always hold one button to ready your run and one button to shoot. You push a button against object to take cover. Blah blah.

It mentions a few functions as you go through, but other things are left unexplained. (The CQC stuff, for example) Also, I would consider the firing range as much apart from the main game as the menu briefings and the instruction manual.

Edit: And did you just say there's no room for "depth," "substance," "outside perspective," and "reasonable debate" on 1up Yours? And that that is a good thing? O_O

 

[Y2Kev]

The UI is not that convoluted. It's not any different from MGS3...you have a health bar and a psyche (stamina) bar (there's no third meter, though there is a stress percentage-- but honestly, if "STRESS LEVEL" isn't intuitive to you after a few minutes of seeing how it works...). There is an entire setting on the codec to help you manage psyche.

On the right you have a camo percentage (also obvious) and a radar...people actually whined that radar was missing in MGS3, so now it's there. And if it bothers you, you can shut it off.

The threat ring is where I agree. It's not really well explained ever that I can remember. The only reason I know how it worked was from observation and from the 20 minute gameplay demo in July.

He's describing the UI as if it were constantly changing and fluctuating, but it's really not very hard to grasp. Unlike say, in a racing game (which Garnett enjoys), you're not trying to directly manipulate it in most cases. Usually, all the bars will regenerate on their own if you just relax.

It sounds like he's a bit impatient (understandable), but I definitely understand frustration. But you really CAN easily play this as a shooter, so really you shouldn't have any problem even if you ARE setting off alarms all the time. And if you don't WANT to set off any alarms, well, that's hard. It should frustrate you if you aren't that good at the time. I get frustrated when I can't beat Ninja Gaiden 2 on Master Ninja

 

[traveler]

That's something that still hasn't changed that I find weird. I appreciate the multiple ways to tackle any given scenario, but when going stealthy (in what many would call is the "Premier Stealth Action franchise") means making the game more difficult on yourself than if you brute forced it, the design just seems unusual to me. The game could still keep its "You can approach this from any number of different ways" methodology without prioritizing combat over stealth, no?

 

[Y2Kev]

I don't agree with that. I don't find being stealthy more difficult. Conversely, I also find it more fun and more rewarding. The game rewards players for being stealthy, particularly with Drebin's Shop.

How can you say they prioritize combat over stealth? There's like three ways to sneak through every level and only one to "brute force" your way through it.

 

[No_Style]

The threat ring is where I agree. It's not really well explained ever that I can remember. The only reason I know how it worked was from observation and from the 20 minute gameplay demo in July.

Otacon explains the threat ring in a codec conversation early on. I think people need to realize that the codec is an in-game manual/hint system as well. If you don't understand anything you can contact people who know. I'm also certain that it's in either the manual or in-game tutorial section as well.

Spoiler

Yes, I bailed out, but now I'm back and bailing again.

 

[rollingstart]

That's something that still hasn't changed that I find weird. I appreciate the multiple ways to tackle any given scenario, but when going stealthy (in what many would call is the "Premier Stealth Action franchise") means making the game more difficult on yourself than if you brute forced it, the design just seems unusual to me. The game could still keep its "You can approach this from any number of different ways" methodology without prioritizing combat over stealth, no?

The game rewards you if you play stealthy compared to going all out guns blazing. You can even play the entire game without killing a singler human and the game will reward you with a prize for doing so. The game even gives you more options when going stealthy such as playing dead or more options when holding up an enemy/taking him down with CQC.

Oh, and even if you do go brute force all the way, chances are more enemy troops will be deployed in that area, so sooner or later you might need to hide out or make a mad dash away. Don't forget that constant battle could lead to stress and a failing psyche guage. Although, there are times when you can get a combat high.

 

[traveler]

I don't agree with that. I don't find being stealthy more difficult. Conversely, I also find it more fun and more rewarding. The game rewards players for being stealthy, particularly with Drebin's Shop.

How can you say they prioritize combat over stealth? There's like three ways to sneak through every level and only one to "brute force" your way through it.

Because I take way less time and usually get hurt much less just shooting my way through it I guess. I don't disagree that the stealthy way is more rewarding, psychologically, but I still think that combat is easier. (Whether that is deliberate or not is another question)

Edit: All the ways you guys are saying the game rewards stealth are outside the actual gameplay. They're non game design implemented rewards- artificial ways to induce you to play one way. I wasn't disputing that the game literally rewards you more for stealth, I just think the game design itself encourages it less. Sorry if I confused you guys with my wording.

Edit2:

I didn't say there's no room. There is obviously depth and substance to the podcast and in their discussion of games. However, I don't believe Garnett wants to take it too far. That's my point. I'm a fan of Shawn and his views, but while I really jive with what he talks about on GFW, it tended to be boring on 1up Yours and I would skip past it because it doesn't fit the show when you go too far. He would go on and on and the others would either sound bored or try to move on to the next topic because it's simply not the place.

Thanks for elaborating. That's more understandable.

 

[Imperial Hot]

Shane has been splooging all over Ryan, embarrassing at times. Ryan, however, always comes off as a nice guy whenever I hear him, very open and actually makes me want to play MGS4 but then I hear from Garnett how convoluted the UI and stuff is...which makes me think of MGO, which I did not like at all.

I'm sad that Shawn left 1up yours, he brings the depth, the substance, the needed bigger perspective, is very adept at cutting through BS and just a very good debater. He draws from sources others rarely if ever do and 1up yours is poorer for it.

Any UI is convoluted when you are in a constant state of being drunk.

 

[Kintaro]

It mentions a few functions as you go through, but other things are left unexplained. (The CQC stuff, for example) Also, I would consider the firing range as much apart from the main game as the menu briefings and the instruction manual.

Edit: And did you just say there's no room for "depth," "substance," "outside perspective," and "reasonable debate" on 1up Yours? And that that is a good thing? O_O

I didn't say there's no room. There is obviously depth and substance to the podcast and in their discussion of games. However, I don't believe Garnett wants to take it too far. That's my point. I'm a fan of Shawn and his views, but while I really jive with what he talks about on GFW, it tended to be boring on 1up Yours and I would skip past it because it doesn't fit the show when you go too far. He would go on and on and the others would either sound bored or try to move on to the next topic because it's simply not the place.

Switching gear a bit; does Grid play like Garnett talked about? I was thinking of giving it a whirl but that kind of made me take a step back.

 

[Y2Kev]

Because I take way less time and usually get hurt much less just shooting my way through it I guess.

Is the point of the game to move quickly? I mean, I don't see this argument at all. You do what you find fun. There are no rewards for moving quickly, and killing lots of people unlocks "worse" emblems and jacks up all the war economy prices in the store.

I don't disagree that the stealthy way is more rewarding, psychologically, but I still think that combat is easier. (Whether that is deliberate or not is another question)

What I don't understand is why you are linking "easier" with "prioritized."

It's also not easier on

Spoiler

The Boss Extreme

.

 

[traveler]

Err, because if the game design makes something quicker and easier, then it is, in effect, encouraging a person to take that road through it? I didn't think that was up for dispute...

Look, once again, I'm not stating that I, personally, find it more satisfying; it's just an oddity in the design (IMO) of what is supposed to be a stealth action game. I figure it's more the result of trying to appeal to multiple playstyles, though, and not quite getting the balance of difficulty right rather than a deliberate desire to make combat the easiest path.

 

[Y2Kev]

Err, because if the game design makes something quicker and easier, then it is, in effect, encouraging a person to take that road through it? I didn't think that was up for dispute...

I dispute that it's easier. Maybe it's easier for you with the style you are playing on the difficulty you are playing.

It's possible the game should push players that want to run and gun up to a harder difficulty.

 

[traveler]

I dispute that it's easier. Maybe it's easier for you with the style you are playing on the difficulty you are playing.

It's possible the game should push players that want to run and gun up to a harder difficulty.

Yeah, I haven't touched the higher ones yet, but I still think it should strike the same balance at all levels. I'll be sure to give them a try, though, when I get done with my current playthrough.

 

[Tieno]

Any UI is convoluted when you are in a constant state of being drunk.

I felt the MGO one was, way too much stuff and what from what it sounds it's not that different with MGS4.

 

[rollingstart]

I felt the MGO one was, way too much stuff and what from what it sounds it's not that different with MGS4.

MGS4 single player actually is more complicated than MGO. MGO is really simple. I think that everything on the HUD is important when playing MGS4. The only one I think might be pushing it is the wind direction arrow, but if you are playing really stealthy it comes in handy.

 

[traveler]

MGS4 single player actually is more complicated than MGO. MGO is really simple. I think that everything on the HUD is important when playing MGS4. The only one I think might be pushing it is the wind direction arrow, but if you are playing really stealthy it comes in handy.

I agree for the most part. I'd get rid of the radar and wind and instead give you a mini version of the pause map with the goal icon flashing on it instead. Besides that, though, I like and regularly use/watch everything on the HUD and it seldom, if ever, gets in my way.

Tieno, if the hud and controls are what are stopping you, I'd still give it a try. I briefly played the MGO beta and was afraid I'd be in for the same complicated control systems as the previous ones, but, for some reason, I haven't been bothered by the controls in MGS4 much at all. It really is an improvement; you just need to take a little break at the beginning of the game and familiarize yourself with what does what before you head into the action. (something that's kinda hard to do in an online game)

 

[JBuccCP]

MGS4 single player actually is more complicated than MGO. MGO is really simple. I think that everything on the HUD is important when playing MGS4. The only one I think might be pushing it is the wind direction arrow, but if you are playing really stealthy it comes in handy.

Why is there a wind direction arrow? Can the PMC's smell you or something?

 

[traveler]

Why is there a wind direction arrow? Can the PMC's smell you or something?

Maybe not the PMCs, but....

 

[Y2Kev]

PMCs CAN smell you.

Spoiler

if you spend too much time in the oil drum...

The other "reward" for sneaking is that you see all the kojipro hijinx

 

[traveler]

PMCs CAN smell you.

Spoiler

if you spend too much time in the oil drum...

The other "reward" for sneaking is that you see all the kojipro hijinx

I didn't know that. Huh. I guess I should use the oil drum more. I suppose that also applies to the trash cans?

 

[Woo-Fu]

People are complaining about the UI of MGS4? I've seen everything now.

It works great, and is intuitive for the most part. Codec transmissions explain most of it to you in-game, including the threat ring. You only need to crack the manual if you want to learn the finer points of CQC.

UI is great and the controls themselves are much better than previous MGS games, to the point where they should be easily grasped by anybody who plays console shooters now and then.

I will admit that using the camera is big pain in the ass, that could have been done a lot better. If you are going to make me turn on a 2nd controller just to snap the picture, why not use more buttons on the 2nd controller to give me a lot more control over the camera so I can take some really cool shots?

 

[JavaMava]

I'm listening to this right now, and as for MGS4 spoilers... WHAT THE FUCK!?!

Spoiler

telling me the game uses completely different mechanics near the end and even plays as a completely different genre for a bit at the end....

is a spoiler.

 

[TDG]

don't mean to be rude but no one will fucking take you seriously with comments like that.
I don't watch a movie trailer and think that I have seen the movie. I also don't skim through pages of a book and think I know the story.

Hey, I know that this is crazy-defense hour, but let's back up: I never claimed that I know the story of MGS. All I said, is that there's a huge difference between what fans say about the maturity and inredible meaning of the story, and the oddball weirdness I see in trailers.

Again, I never pretended to know the story of MGS, I just hear fans of the game talking as if I could have a serious discussion aout the story in MGS with a non-gamer, and then when I see trailers with octopus-women and monkeys in diapers... I think otherwise.

 

[schuelma]

Damn, I might have to listen to the MGS4 segment after all:lol

Shane with the Scientology shit was great as always, but he did kind of go into full fanboy mode in the news segment when the brought up Star Ocean 360..I swear to God his voice changes as he says "It's a nice title, but ITS NO FINAL FANTASY".

 

[Y2Kev]

Damn, I might have to listen to the MGS4 segment after all:lol

Shane with the Scientology shit was great as always, but he did kind of go into full fanboy mode in the news segment when the brought up Star Ocean 360..I swear to God his voice changes as he says "It's a nice title, but ITS NO FINAL FANTASY".

 

[FabCam]

I didn't like the show. Everyone was hating on it for such stupid things. The British guys said some stupid shit about the game having too much content. I literally like, "wtf is this guy on about?". Then Garnett BSing about the UI. The UI is so simple. There's a life and stamina bar. Under that it says Stress Level, so you must be dumb if you don't know what that is. But then again, Shane splooging to Ryan wasn't too cool either. I really wish Shawn was back

 

[sun-drop]

what's with Garnett ...he seriously thought the treat ring meant only ppl inside that ring could see snake ... ??

oh boy ..

it's a freakin radar .. jesus ..and a damn genius one at that.

how is he missing the in game prompts for these things ... ?

 

[Truant]

Why did Shawn leave 1UP Yours?

He was the best part, after Luke left.

 

[Spruchy]

I'm listening to this right now, and as for MGS4 spoilers... WHAT THE FUCK!?!

Spoiler

telling me the game uses completely different mechanics near the end and even plays as a completely different genre for a bit at the end....

is a spoiler.

Oh god stop crying, if your that anal about spoilers do not listen to a podcast where the game is the main discussion.

 

[Kintaro]

I didn't like the show. Everyone was hating on it for such stupid things. The British guys said some stupid shit about the game having too much content.

Yeah, I...was kind of dumbfounded by that one. "I'm only going to play through it once so I should be able to see everything the game has to offer the first time around" was his argument in a nutshell.

John has really turned into a strange kind of gamer.

 

[LCfiner]

Yeah, I...was kind of dumbfounded by that one. "I'm only going to play through it once so I should be able to see everything the game has to offer the first time around" was his argument in a nutshell.

John has really turned into a strange kind of gamer.

Yeah, the word you're looking for is parent.

It's not strange. Not everyone has the time or desire to play a 20 hour game 2 or 3 times.

 

[Y2Kev]

You don't have to. It's still a fully satisfying and entertaining game if you just play it once.

There's a six page check list of GOODIES/EXTRAS/KOJIMA-ISMS in the Limited Edition guide. You really can go multiple playthroughs without seeing everything, but why is this a bad thing? These are cool little trinkets for hardcore gamers that don't at all take away from more casual players.

On the other hand, I went through the entire game just now and I didn't know I could roll from prone position or play dead! That's not good! lol

*loads up act 1 again*

 

[traveler]

I actually agree with the arguments against John's. I fully understand that he doesn't have the time, but I don't really see what he wants- the easter eggs removed? Made obvious? I can't see any reason for the former and if its the latter, just use a faq or guide. Besides, you can go through the whole game without even seeing the stuff and still have a great time.

On the podcast as a whole, I'd go through and post my individual thoughts, but skip pretty much said whatever I would have said at any point. The "fanboyism" on all sides wasn't really as bad as I was expecting from this thread outside of Shane's peasant outburst. :lol

 

[Kintaro]

Yeah, the word you're looking for is parent.

It's not strange. Not everyone has the time or desire to play a 20 hour game 2 or 3 times.

No, it's strange. It's strange when you argue against having a good amount of fun, extra content in a game because you don't have enough time to put into it. You can have a great deal of fun playing through the game for fun one time and move on. Then theres extra stuff for those who play through it multiple times.

Actually, the word really is selfish.

 

[traveler]

No, it's strange. It's strange when you argue against having a good amount of fun, extra content in a game because you don't have enough time to put into it. You can have a great deal of fun playing through the game for fun one time and move on. Then theres extra stuff for those who play through it multiple times.

Actually, the word really is selfish.

I think he was arguing more against the idea that John is strange for not wanting to play through the game several times over than he was for John's argument that there shouldn't be extras/goodies like that. (if that's what John was even asking for)

 

[Pre]

No, it's strange. It's strange when you argue against having a good amount of fun, extra content in a game because you don't have enough time to put into it. You can have a great deal of fun playing through the game for fun one time and move on. Then theres extra stuff for those who play through it multiple times.

Actually, the word really is selfish.

Why should John miss out on a lot of the cool content just because he has more important things to do than waste his life on playing Metal Gear five times? He's not being selfish, he just doesn't like missing out on things because he has shit he needs to do.

 

[Visualante]

I think John's point stands, as some Western developers have grown up with the industry they've started to make games that reflect the way they play, and the time that they can dedicate to games. They've made the singleplayer experience as rich as possible on a single playthrough.

Kojima Productions has pretty much disregarded that in the attempt to satisfy another group's desires who are willing to play multiple times to get the full experience.

Not knocking the game, because I honestly don't think it could have been done any other way. It's a one of a kind design.

 

[LCfiner]

I think he was arguing more against the idea that John is strange for not wanting to play through the game several times over than he was for John's argument that there shouldn't be extras/goodies like that. (if that's what John was even asking for)

yes. this.

i like it when developers add extra content that requires multiple play through. that's cool. I just know I won't be able to see it unless the game is only 6 hours long. (what's up, Halo 3 skulls)

 

[Xtyle]

I think John's point stands, as some Western developers have grown up with the industry they've started to make games that reflect the way they play, and the time that they can dedicate to games. They've made the singleplayer experience as rich as possible on a single playthrough.

Kojima Productions has pretty much disregarded that in the attempt to satisfy another group's desires who are willing to play multiple times to get the full experience.

Not knocking the game, because I honestly don't think it could have been done any other way. It's a one of a kind design.

that is hard to agree with when in the single player you can pretty much only use a few weapons and items to enjoy the game. I only used a hand gun, 1 machine gun, 2 rifles, rations, solid eye, noodels...and few mandatory items. If you are not going to play through the game multiple times, these other hardcore unlock ables won't even matter to him.
The whole time I was listening to the podcast on MGS4, I was like are you guys serious? Do you only play Wii games or what? MGS4 menu and controls complicated? most of it you don't even need to be aware of to enjoy the game. The game doesn't punish you for not doing well on CQC. only few points in the game when you do have to grab someone...

 

[Kintaro]

Why should John miss out on a lot of the cool content just because he has more important things to do than waste his life on playing Metal Gear five times? He's not being selfish, he just doesn't like missing out on things because he has shit he needs to do.

He can Youtube it then. It's called replayability. You go back through because a) you enjoy it b) you want to find all the cute things you missed or c) explore all of the areas the designers give you. If not, you can play it once, enjoy it and move on.

These guys harp of games that are too linear and you only play through once. They harp on games that have goodies and so forth for fans who want to play the game over and over. They harp on games that hand your hold throughout the game. They harp on games that figure you're smart enough to play it without hand holding. They harp on games that are accessable to everybody and take away depth to even the playing field. They harp on games that are deep and competitive which makes them scared to even play them. Blah blah blah. If it's not one thing, it's another. Across the board on all systems.

Jebus. The more I think about it, the more I wonder why the Wii doesn't get more talk on the podcast because it's catering itself more and more to the things guys like John want.

 

[bathala]

do they have a picture of shane with brown stuff clogging his nose?

 

[mileS]

I can't believe people are making such a big fucking deal over Shane being completely in love with MGS4... give it a rest people! Just because hes not spending the entire time listing off silly things he doesn't like about the game it makes him a huge fanboy? Ask any huge fan of the MGS games how much they enjoyed MGS4 and you'll hear the same things. Get a tissue and move on with life it really isn't a big deal.

Why these threads turn into a big bitch fest is beyond me. It's usually always only a couple people with positive comments and the rest just whine about random crap. I wonder how many weeks its going to take for the Shawn banana riders to give it a rest? I love the guy just as much as the rest of you but theres a reason he chose to leave the show and focus just on GFW. No amount of crying for him back is going to change that.

No wonder skip and the crew usually avoid these threads. It makes it seem like hardly anybody enjoys the show at all.

 

[traveler]

I don't have a problem with Shane enjoying the game; I have a problem with him insulting everyone with (arguably valid) criticisms of MGS4's cutscenes.

 

[HK-47]

I haven't played Army of Two, but isn't that the whole conceit of that game?
Hell, wasn't Mercenaries about... well, Mercenaries?
Probably unlike most people, I think the greater narrative innovation is the whole Beauty side story, not the PMC stuff.

I don't deny that MGS4 does some interesting things. But to say it's some kind of eye-opening experience that teaches the player about humanity and his/her inner self is kind of preposterous. I understand hyperbole, but come on... this is too much.

Indeed. MGS has always been a tad too ridiculous to take seriously, and while the themes are there, the narrative leaves much to be desired. Especially with how melodramatic it got. MGS 3 was a lot better at the serious heartfelt moments

 

[HK-47]

I don't have a problem with Shane enjoying the game; I have a problem with him insulting everyone with (arguably valid) criticisms of MGS4's cutscenes.

Yes its fucking annoying. Especially from Mr. I Heard Someone Say This But I Didnt Actually Play the Game.

 

[LCfiner]

I don't have a problem with Shane enjoying the game; I have a problem with him insulting everyone with (arguably valid) criticisms of MGS4's cutscenes.

same here.

And to Miles, I wouldn't say this thread has been a clusterfuck. People have different opinions and we're expressing them. It hasn't devolved into complete rampant moaning and flaming... yet.