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The Coalition - tech test in UE5

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Stuart360

Member
I liked the open world part, it reminded me of Death Stranding but a lot better looking.
The rest of it though just looked like a cgi cutscene. I mean cool its realtime but i'm not excited.

I dont know, maybe i'm getting over the whole graphics thing, i mean what AAA games dont look good these days?. I think framerates and resolution are what can make games look and feel better these days.
 

Snake29

RSI Employee of the Year
You must have been sleeping for a long time then.

Just read carefully what i said. Maybe you guys just take the laugh and don't act so desperate at this time. It's weird to bring the first demo up for some console waring, but then forget that everyone has been able to play The Matrix demo, which shows that performance can be different on multiple platforms.
 

kingfey

Banned
Just read carefully what i said. Maybe you guys just take the laugh and don't act so desperate at this time. It's weird to bring the first demo up for some console waring, but then forget that everyone has been able to play The Matrix demo, which shows that performance can be different on multiple platforms.
UE5 has been used as weapon for console wars. Considering the demo was collaboration between Sony and epic. People took that as a sign that Xbox consoles couldn't run it, due to the ssd magic.
Turned out it was wrong.
 

KyoZz

Tag, you're it.
unknown.png


You Got Me GIF by HULU
 

Snake29

RSI Employee of the Year
UE5 has been used as weapon for console wars. Considering the demo was collaboration between Sony and epic. People took that as a sign that Xbox consoles couldn't run it, due to the ssd magic.
Turned out it was wrong.

That Phil guy said "Xbox couldn't run UE5". Well UE5 is the name of the whole engine. Nobody said that the engine was exclusively developed for the PS5.

There is a big difference between saying "You guys said UE5 wouldn't run on XSX" or "The PS5 demo is not running on the XSX", which is true. Like people said back then, we don't know what the difference would be. The Matrix demo already showed that both can run the UE5 perfectly but still with differences in performance.

We are now what..almost 2 years from that first demo. We had a demo on pc and The Matrix and still some people are desperate to bring the first demo up because they are still upset about it. People even claimed back then that it would've run much better on XSX due to 12TF bla bla bla...well The Matrix demo really showed that....
 

Stuart360

Member
UE5 has been used as weapon for console wars. Considering the demo was collaboration between Sony and epic. People took that as a sign that Xbox consoles couldn't run it, due to the ssd magic.
Turned out it was wrong.
To be fair the Sony fans were talking about the UE5 demo that was PS5 exclusive, they were NOT on about the engine itself. Hell the engine will work on last gen consoles, as Epic said.

There was a lot of talk, especially in the 'Next Gen shitpost' thread about the demo not being able to run on XSX as well as PS5, especulation on asset streaming and stuttering from the lower speed SSD in XSX etc.

So yeah that was the talk for months.
I have to be honest, its annoying as hell that Epic's collab with Sony meant XSX never got that demo as it would of been crow eating like never before if it looked at ran as well on XSX.
 

Snake29

RSI Employee of the Year
To be fair the Sony fans were talking about the UE5 demo that was PS5 exclusive, they were NOT on about the engine itself. Hell the engine will work on last gen consoles, as Epic said.

There was a lot of talk, especially in the 'Next Gen shitpost' thread about the demo not being able to run on XSX as well as PS5, especulation on asset streaming and stuttering from the lower speed SSD in XSX etc.

So yeah that was the talk for months.
I have to be honest, its annoying as hell that Epic's collab with Sony meant XSX never got that demo as it would of been crow eating like never before if it looked at ran as well on XSX.

Well you can use The Matrix demo for that. And the XSX didn't outperform the PS5 in the demo, even with the help of the coalition for the Series consoles.
 
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kingfey

Banned
That Phil guy said "Xbox couldn't run UE5". Well UE5 is the name of the whole engine. Nobody said that the engine was exclusively developed for the PS5.

There is a big difference between saying "You guys said UE5 wouldn't run on XSX" or "The PS5 demo is not running on the XSX", which is true. Like people said back then, we don't know what the difference would be. The Matrix demo already showed that both can run the UE5 perfectly but still with differences in performance.

We are now what..almost 2 years from that first demo. We had a demo on pc and The Matrix and still some people are desperate to bring the first demo up because they are still upset about it. People even claimed back then that it would've run much better on XSX due to 12TF bla bla bla...well The Matrix demo really showed that....
As a whole engine is kinda different. It's was just the demo part. The guy got confused about that.

For the 12tf, that is just marketing hype, like the ssd. It means nothing, until someone utilizes it very well.

I am kinda excited for the games it will bring though. If games can look like the matrix demo, we are in for a wacky ride.
 

kingfey

Banned
To be fair the Sony fans were talking about the UE5 demo that was PS5 exclusive, they were NOT on about the engine itself. Hell the engine will work on last gen consoles, as Epic said.

There was a lot of talk, especially in the 'Next Gen shitpost' thread about the demo not being able to run on XSX as well as PS5, especulation on asset streaming and stuttering from the lower speed SSD in XSX etc.

So yeah that was the talk for months.
I have to be honest, its annoying as hell that Epic's collab with Sony meant XSX never got that demo as it would of been crow eating like never before if it looked at ran as well on XSX.
Its will be much better, if they didn't. The war during that time was nasty. Right now it's tame, due to the rules. But before, it was blood bath.
Imagine, if they released that demo.
 

Stuart360

Member
Well you can use The Matrix demo for that. And the XSX didn't outperform the PS5 in the demo, even with the help of the coalition for the Series consoles.
Well the Matrix demo was 1080p and ran like shit on both, under 30fps for large parts.
If you want to take the win then go for it but its very much barrel scraping to be honest. If that had been an actual game that performed like that, i'd expect outrage.
 

sncvsrtoip

Member
Doesnt look as good as the Epic demos. Are they using nanite?

Character models and especially the environments look fairly cross gen compared to the Matrix and the first two UE5 demos.
remember games have to target decent performance target and not 1080p with drops to 20fps
 

Snake29

RSI Employee of the Year
Well the Matrix demo was 1080p and ran like shit on both, under 30fps for large parts.
If you want to take the win then go for it but its very much barrel scraping to be honest. If that had been an actual game that performed like that, i'd expect outrage.

Is correcting some people now "going for the win?". It doesn't really matter that it was 1080p/30. The first UE demo for the PS5 was 1440p/30 so if The Matrix demo already couldn't do much better, then we not have to expect that the first demo on the XSX would've outperform the PS5 in that specific demo also.

Its will be much better, if they didn't. The war during that time was nasty. Right now it's tame, due to the rules. But before, it was blood bath.
Imagine, if they released that demo.

So wait, are you one of them claiming that the first demo would run, much..much better on the XSX? Are we back in 2020 or something?
 
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kingfey

Banned
So wait, are you one of them claiming that the first demo would run, much..much better on the XSX? Are we back in 2020 or something?
Who said that?
Did you see neogaf 2020? That shit is much worse than what it is now.
It was unbearable.
The mods had to implement that sticking rule, just so they could make people behave.
 

Stuart360

Member
Who said that?
Did you see neogaf 2020? That shit is much worse than what it is now.
It was unbearable.
The mods had to implement that sticking rule, just so they could make people behave.
The rules seem to of been forgotten by the mods anyway the last few months, just go in any Xbox related thread to see that.
 

Riky

$MSFT
Looks like another great show for character models just like Hellblade 2, most impressive we've seen out of UE5 so far. If The Coalition can get that sort of detail at 60fps then Gears 6 is going to look incredible.


More details in the link.

AZjtJmw.jpg


UE5 is getting substantial first party support from Xbox, Coalition will be sharing their experience with other first party studios,

"We’ve been really privileged to share our knowledge and best practices with others across Xbox Game Studios, and learn from them as well. In addition, we work really closely with the Xbox ATG (Advanced Technology Group), giving us the ability to optimize on a system level"

With The Coalition working with Epic so closely on the engine we're going to seem some amazing looking first party games.
 

oldergamer

Member
Looks like another great show for character models just like Hellblade 2, most impressive we've seen out of UE5 so far. If The Coalition can get that sort of detail at 60fps then Gears 6 is going to look incredible.


More details in the link.

AZjtJmw.jpg


UE5 is getting substantial first party support from Xbox, Coalition will be sharing their experience with other first party studios,

"We’ve been really privileged to share our knowledge and best practices with others across Xbox Game Studios, and learn from them as well. In addition, we work really closely with the Xbox ATG (Advanced Technology Group), giving us the ability to optimize on a system level"

With The Coalition working with Epic so closely on the engine we're going to seem some amazing looking first party games.
No shock here, I was saying there were 8 - 10 studios using unreal 5 back when everyone was thinking the unreal 5 reveal demo was only possible on PlayStation.
 

Riky

$MSFT
No shock here, I was saying there were 8 - 10 studios using unreal 5 back when everyone was thinking the unreal 5 reveal demo was only possible on PlayStation.

Exactly, this is the first time I've seen Perfect Dark mentioned myself, pleased they haven't had to create a whole engine for the game, should look amazing when we get to see it, especially now Crystal Dynamics have moved to UE5.
 

jorgejjvr

Member
You're crazy, and you also want to start console wars? This is about unreal dude. not comparing to an actual game.
right, im saying a 1 minute unreal demo, which they can take their time to make it the best graphical 1 minute ever, looks worse than a released full game from last gen.

Not impressive

also, im not a fanboy, got a series s, series x, ps5, switch, pc
 
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Corndog

Banned
Just read carefully what i said. Maybe you guys just take the laugh and don't act so desperate at this time. It's weird to bring the first demo up for some console waring, but then forget that everyone has been able to play The Matrix demo, which shows that performance can be different on multiple platforms.
Probably because Sony fanboys went on and on about it not being possible on Xbox. Kind of annoying right?
 

Clear

CliffyB's Cock Holster
Probably because Sony fanboys went on and on about it not being possible on Xbox. Kind of annoying right?

The significant section showing data throughput in that first demo is the long flythrough of the city, which hasn't been shown since outside (maybe) the Matrix demo.

Anyone saying X thing can't be done outside of PS5 was talking crap, because in the long-term it was always obvious that Unreal as a multi-platform tech platform would aim to offer that feature set across all targets. That being said, the extreme performance of the PS5 i/o pipeline is undeniably going to be advantageous under certain circumstances, the numbers simply don't lie.
 
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SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
If Alpha Point is anything to go on, they're making all the assets, rather than kitbashing Quixel Megascans and existing models. The point of their demos seems to have been to do it all for real, not just to get up-and-running anything you can get running on the engine (Epic has already done that work.) These demos weren't made to maximize the engine, they're just putting to work some of its new functions and capabilities within their current work experience in a small-scale demo (although I'm still kind of wary that The Coalition is still making demos, I'd hope they were knee-deep in a game production by now) so that they have a handle on what's ahead in their next actual game.

But also, Matrix and the two UE5 demos were all 20-30+GBs of raw assets (Matrix was 30GB compressed to the game app, it's 85GB of uncompressed/uncompiled material on the asset store and that's without the Matrix intro or playable action scene.) That's a ton of materials for only small portions of "games". Actual games will need to fit lots more than that on a 50GB BD, or 100-200GB of a download (even pushing 100GB is extreme, these consoles have 2/3s to even 1/2 a TB onboard storage right now.) UE5 is going to do great things for games, but the idea that we're waiting for a miracle and that everything is "cross-gen" until the great UE5 hope comes along and ushers in "true next-gen", that's probably a misunderstanding of what to expect.
I can buy the first paragraph, but the Matrix demo is only 25GB on my PS5 and contains a full next gen open world city. Even if they added fully modeled indoor segments that take up 3x more space, we are still looking a 100 GB game on par with last gen games like RDR2 and Horizon. Hell, I have seen UE4 demos look better than this. See the Rebirth demo, the Australia demo, etc.
remember games have to target decent performance target and not 1080p with drops to 20fps
Eh. It's 1080p with TSR which looks way better than whatever the hell GG is using for their 60 fps mode. It looked like 1440p to me. And thats just the open world demo using hardware accelerated ray tracing. The first one was 1440p 30 fps locked, looked native 4k and way more impressive than this.

I dont know. Matrix ran fine until I crashed into cars at full speed because their collision system doesnt currently support nanite. It will in the future. Otherwise, the more impressive chase sequence ran at an average of 29 fps according to NX gamer's frame graphs.

I hope Coalition isnt making the same mistake Bluepoint and Insomniac made by making their next gen games native 4k 30 fps. It's a gigantic waste of resources, and we are just not going to get that generational leap by wasting 75% just rendering useless pixels.

Tell me if this looks 1080p to you. I'd rather devs use 1080p and pay whatever cost for TSR then render native 4k and produce average looking next gen games.

FGTcrHcX0AYhFA9


92jxhif.gif
 
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Snake29

RSI Employee of the Year
I wish you would take your own advice, stated below.



Precisely. Now say this to yourself.

That demo was build for the PS5, and we've never seen it running on the Xbox, so yes we don't know how this same demo would run.

Better now? And since i explained it already in a different post but...sure, let's keep pretending that we've seen the demo on the XSX.

I can buy the first paragraph, but the Matrix demo is only 25GB on my PS5 and contains a full next gen open world city. Even if they added fully modeled indoor segments that take up 3x more space, we are still looking a 100 GB game on par with last gen games like RDR2 and Horizon. Hell, I have seen UE4 demos look better than this. See the Rebirth demo, the Australia demo, etc.

Eh. It's 1080p with TSR which looks way better than whatever the hell GG is using for their 60 fps mode. It looked like 1440p to me. And thats just the open world demo using hardware accelerated ray tracing. The first one was 1440p 30 fps locked, looked native 4k and way more impressive than this.

I dont know. Matrix ran fine until I crashed into cars at full speed because their collision system doesnt currently support nanite. It will in the future. Otherwise, the more impressive chase sequence ran at an average of 29 fps according to NX gamer's frame graphs.

I hope Coalition isnt making the same mistake Bluepoint and Insomniac made by making their next gen games native 4k 30 fps. It's a gigantic waste of resources, and we are just not going to get that generational leap by wasting 75% just rendering useless pixels.

The metahuman head in The Coalition demo itself is not impressive. This demo showed good looking lighting, something like the first PS5 demo. The character in the first demo was also not impressive, but the world around it was.
 
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Riky

$MSFT
If people read the article it says,

Can you speak to some often-overlooked features of Unreal Engine? What are some aspects you would like to call out to other developers?

Unreal Insights are worth mentioning since they allow developers to gather real-time data on anything during the development process. Also, Temporal Super Resolution (TSR) – the ability to render 4k for the cost of rendering at 1080p – is an incredible feature that can sometimes be overlooked.

That doesn't say to me 4k 30fps.
 

phil_t98

#SonyToo
That Phil guy said "Xbox couldn't run UE5". Well UE5 is the name of the whole engine. Nobody said that the engine was exclusively developed for the PS5.

There is a big difference between saying "You guys said UE5 wouldn't run on XSX" or "The PS5 demo is not running on the XSX", which is true. Like people said back then, we don't know what the difference would be. The Matrix demo already showed that both can run the UE5 perfectly but still with differences in performance.

We are now what..almost 2 years from that first demo. We had a demo on pc and The Matrix and still some people are desperate to bring the first demo up because they are still upset about it. People even claimed back then that it would've run much better on XSX due to 12TF bla bla bla...well The Matrix demo really showed that....

I said the demo, you reacted. Read my original post
 

elliot5

Member
The Coalition (the Colin guy) already has said before with the prev tech test (Alpha Point) that they are a 60 FPS studio. FUD about 30 FPS with UE5 isn't warranted.
 

sncvsrtoip

Member
I can buy the first paragraph, but the Matrix demo is only 25GB on my PS5 and contains a full next gen open world city. Even if they added fully modeled indoor segments that take up 3x more space, we are still looking a 100 GB game on par with last gen games like RDR2 and Horizon. Hell, I have seen UE4 demos look better than this. See the Rebirth demo, the Australia demo, etc.

Eh. It's 1080p with TSR which looks way better than whatever the hell GG is using for their 60 fps mode. It looked like 1440p to me. And thats just the open world demo using hardware accelerated ray tracing. The first one was 1440p 30 fps locked, looked native 4k and way more impressive than this.

I dont know. Matrix ran fine until I crashed into cars at full speed because their collision system doesnt currently support nanite. It will in the future. Otherwise, the more impressive chase sequence ran at an average of 29 fps according to NX gamer's frame graphs.

I hope Coalition isnt making the same mistake Bluepoint and Insomniac made by making their next gen games native 4k 30 fps. It's a gigantic waste of resources, and we are just not going to get that generational leap by wasting 75% just rendering useless pixels.

Tell me if this looks 1080p to you. I'd rather devs use 1080p and pay whatever cost for TSR then render native 4k and produce average looking next gen games.

FGTcrHcX0AYhFA9


92jxhif.gif
for me it looks defenitly worse than 1440p, also you criticize character model of coaliton ue5 demo but to be honest maybe not mindblowing but still better by far than character you can walk in city in this demo
 
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CamHostage

Member
I can buy the first paragraph, but the Matrix demo is only 25GB on my PS5 and contains a full next gen open world city. Even if they added fully modeled indoor segments that take up 3x more space, we are still looking a 100 GB game on par with last gen games like RDR2 and Horizon.

Matrix Awakens is 29.07 GB on Xbox. So give or take a GB on whichever platform it is compiled for.

But also, "only 25GB"... only? It's a relatively modest city area made with heavy usage of procedural generation and replicated assets, with few audio samples or other multimedia included much less all the other materials that go into a game. There are apparently just 44 unique buildings populating the entire City Sample (aka the open-world section of Matrix Awakens,) which can be used to make a nice-looking city when spread around and stylized but isn't going to be enough to create distinct boroughs or open parks or landmark skylines in say a realistic NYC-set game. (Although they do augment building with different decoration and even rough shape shifts as well as other visual cues to make them distinct.) Those square buildings and the highway system are most of that "full next gen open world city"; then they randomize in some people (which mix&match from 12 heads, 6 bodies, and various bits of wardrobe and fabric textures) and place some props, and that's the city. And that's 90GB of assets, which compiles/compresses down to an executeable of 25-30GB* in a PlayStation or Xbox game build.



(**EDIT - Big adjustment here, the PC version of City Sample (which has the same map as Matrix Awakens but does not contain any of the video files or the opening action sequence) is a more economical 18.14GB. So, we're fitting more in per GB than my original FUD indicates, but we also needed almost 11GB for, what, 3 minutes of gameplay?)

So, you could make a game of that 30GB. They did make a game of it, sort of. (Matrix Awakens doesn't have "a point" to it, but you can drive around and crash and jump and discover stuff.) But if you were going to make a real game on a AAA scale, you're going to need significantly more, and you will ultimately need to be thrifty with your assets because you need to deliver something on a disc, or at least you need to be concerned that tipping over 200GB installed on drive is a big ask of gamers. If developers can stay in that 100GB range then okay, it is the standard for now, but I disagree on your math that they'd only need 3X this demo's content in order to make for example a full-scale Matrix AAA game.

We'll see when more UE5 projects are actually compiled for release (and especially now that it's beyond Early Access and developers can produce finalized, releasable content with it,) but asset size will be a concern. The Market of Light, a UE5 project made available to the public, is a tiny bit of gameplay area and yet that's I think 2.5GB in its little corner of the world.

Either way, though, I don't really think that's why Coalition's newest demo is not impressing you, it just is what it is: a short little demo made to exercise the feature set of the engine and production methods of the team. It would have been nice if this was finished back in June of 2021 so that their Alpha Point demo would have made more sense, but ever all of their demos put together still don't add up to the quality or depth of content found in the very first UE5 demo, Lumen in the Land of Nanite, way back in May of 2020. (Also I agree that, in 2022, showing this when so much stunning work has been done by amateurs in UE5 Early Access is not ideal, whether it looks good or "too cross-gen" to viewers.) But the point isn't to blow gamers away, it's to exercise the team and provide some feedback for MS's teams and get an idea of the work process/challenge as they go into their actual next project.
 
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