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[Duffyside]

People are jarred at how many dudes Nate kills in the game, but not all disconnected that all those dudes look the same. Not, like, "all white dudes look the same," but like "there are 8 character models in the game."

Let's stomp our feet and demand Naughty Dog cut the amount of shooting to one-third of what it was, and multiply the amount of character models by fifty!

 

[JAVK]

.

 

[IMACOMPUTA]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA

 

[krae_man]

I just find it annoying that Uncharted is the main game that gets ridiculed to death over the body count when so many other games can be discussed.

Oh yea, that was just false anger. I'm doing my Garnett impression.

I just want more Dude Raider and less Gears ripoff.


I just wish developers could figure out a different way prevent people from trading in single player games over "add deathmatch and CTF. Then we can sell map packs and multiplayer skins as DLC".

 

[Neuromancer]

The people in here that are seriously saying that Nathan drake is a serial killer need to quit trying so hard... its a videogame first and foremost. If it didn't have shooting, you'd cut the audience in half and it would probably be much less exciting.

No one here is saying cut out all shooting. But killing 800 people during the course of the game is, in my opinion, flat out ridiculous. I think I would like the series to go in the direction of a little less combat and a little more platforming/exploration/puzzles, but I don't think that'll happen.

You are aware this is a video game discussion board right? The point is to discuss video games. This is the one place (okay, maybe two including QT3) where this debate should be able to take place without masses whitewashing with "It's just a video game".

This really irritates me, because any thread that is dissecting an aspect of game design but summarizes something positive, is fine, people agree games should be looked at in that manner and it's great, but you do that with anything that's negative and the board turns into a bunch of children.

There is dissonance for some people when playing Uncharted, that's pretty clear based on the fact this topic comes up all the time. Maybe not for you, maybe not for most people, but clearly it happens, and that seems as worthy of discussion as if Garnett is strange when sitting next to a pretty girl, hell, I'd say it might even be more interesting.

Good post even if Lik was being a little facetious. I think it still warrants discussion.

 

[benny_a]

Hey, I know it doesn't make much sense. But it's still a better story than Crysis 2!

 

[JohngPR]

At least in Uncharted 2, the fact that he does kill so many is brought up by Lazarevic (sp?)

"You think I am a monster, but you're no different from me, Drake. How many men have you killed? How many, just today?"

I wonder if anything will come of that or if it's just a throw away line....

 

[Kintaro]

No one here is saying cut out all shooting. But killing 800 people during the course of the game is, in my opinion, flat out ridiculous. I think I would like the series to go in the direction of a little less combat and a little more platforming/exploration/puzzles, but I don't think that'll happen.

So, what is the okay number of people to kill? 400? 200? 15? 5? May want to let Naughty Dog know so they have a number to aim for.

I wonder if this discussion shows how different of a character Drake is. Because he is not flat out portrayed as a psychotic (like 90% of other game heroes, including the military ones), you guys get some sort of dissonance between cutscene and gameplay. Drake has always been chaotic good. The story starts out with him stealing something in U2 and getting double crossed by a guy who works for a war criminal. In U1 you get shot at by pirates who destroy your boat to start out the game then by a competing treasure hunter.

Like Drake said: "I do attract the scum of the Earth." He has never been pure good and has always done what he has to in order to save his tail (and his friend's).

Here s a fun playthrough I did with both games. Go through the entire game K.O.ing everyone you can with melee/stealth and shooting only those you have to. There. He is much less of a mass murderer now. >.>

At least in Uncharted 2, the fact that he does kill so many is brought up by Lazarevic (sp?)

"You think I am a monster, but you're no different from me, Drake. How many men have you killed? How many, just today?"

I took this as Naughty Dog's way of sniping back at discussions like this and finding them silly. A line said by a war criminal who sent wave after wave of killers to kill Drake who is played by gamers who relish in games that glorify violence day in and day out.

I laughed. =)

 

[Bigfoot]

To get away from all the discussion about dissonance, I just wanted to chime in on the discussion the past few pages.

Garnett and Jeff, don't let all the comments discourage you. You make a great podcast team and it is obvious a lot of GAF listens to it based on the discussion. It is also usually on the top of everyone’s gaming podcast list when those threads come around.

I know you may not read this as I imagine you both have (wisely) decided to avoid Weekend Confirmed threads from now on.

Sure, people have their complaints which is ok. I know I've complained that Garnett seems to dislike games (like Bulletstorm or Magika) without playing them, but that doesn't mean he isn't a great podcast host.

I also enjoy Jeff's enthusiasm. I hadn't heard of him before WC started, but I now check out TRS whenever I can and even visit his blog. Plus I agree with Jeff when he mentions those that use the word "cringe". Do people literally cringe when they listen to the podcast? If so, why keep on listening?

Thanks for putting out a great podcast!

 

[Curufinwe]

How many people did Indiana Jones kill?

 

[StuBurns]

Like Drake said: "I do attract the scum of the Earth." He has never been pure good and has always done what he has to in order to save his tail (and his friend's).

Okay, lets look at that claim.

Uncharted begins on a boat, he is 'jumped' by people shooting at him, he claims this has happened before, even if he's lying to comfort the woman, he could decide to bail on the whole thing once they escape that situation, he knows carrying on will likely result in him having to kill more people, but he does it.

Uncharted 2 begins (chronologically, the game actually begins in medias res) with Drake meeting an old friend and deciding to rob something and not hurt anyone, they're going to use stealth and no guns (ultimately they use tranq darts). Drake is double crossed, caught and goes to prison. When he gets out he could have gone back to the States, instead he decides to go along with a plan that they must have known would involve killing tons of people.

It's not a good excuse to say Drake is in a bad situation, because he deliberately puts himself in those situations, repeatedly. It's also not a good excuse to say 'shooting things in games is fun' or 'shooters sell'. Those things are true, but that doesn't nullify the dissonance some people are experiencing. It was touched on why Uncharted is usually the example given, and ultimately it's because it's the worst offender of this by a country mile while still being a major series. Lots of people addressed this in various ways, make the protagonist a scum bag, make the bag guys robots or aliens or zombies, etc. ND have decide to just ignore the issue, and hope people don't care, and for the most part they're right. Uncharted is a massive IP, the second game got huge critical acclaim and Uncharted 3 is going to sell five million copies within the next year. None of that means the debate is invalid.

 

[ArjanN]

How many people did Indiana Jones kill?

Indiana Jones body count

 

[I AM JOHN!]

How in the fuck has this thread gotten to five pages? You'd think Shawn Elliot came on and said he thought the first Resistance was middling or something.

 

[Rahxephon91]

Even Batman has killed a dude.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ULSvR6hhyI

Blew my mind as a kid.

 

[LiK]

How many people did Indiana Jones kill?

Lara Croft is a better comparison, imo

 

[Kintaro]

How many people did Indiana Jones kill?

Over the course of four movies? I don't know. They were Nazis and a religious cult. They don't count of course.

 

[Duffyside]

Okay, lets look at that claim.

Uncharted begins on a boat, he is 'jumped' by people shooting at him, he claims this has happened before, even if he's lying to comfort the woman, he could decide to bail on the whole thing once they escape that situation, he knows carrying on will likely result in him having to kill more people, but he does it.

Uncharted 2 begins (chronologically, the game actually begins in medias res) with Drake meeting an old friend and deciding to rob something and not hurt anyone, they're going to use stealth and no guns (ultimately they use tranq darts). Drake is double crossed, caught and goes to prison. When he gets out he could have gone back to the States, instead he decides to go along with a plan that they must have known would involve killing tons of people.

It's not a good excuse to say Drake is in a bad situation, because he deliberately puts himself in those situations, repeatedly. It's also not a good excuse to say 'shooting things in games is fun' or 'shooters sell'. Those things are true, but that doesn't nullify the dissonance some people are experiencing. It was touched on why Uncharted is usually the example given, and ultimately it's because it's the worst offender of this by a country mile while still being a major series. Lots of people addressed this in various ways, make the protagonist a scum bag, make the bag guys robots or aliens or zombies, etc. ND have decide to just ignore the issue, and hope people don't care, and for the most part they're right. Uncharted is a massive IP, the second game got huge critical acclaim and Uncharted 3 is going to sell five million copies within the next year. None of that means the debate is invalid.

I know, right? Like that time he and Tenzin come out of the Ice Cavern and see that the Tibetan village is being shot up by soldiers and overrun by tanks. He could have just said "well, let's go this way, cuz killing is wrong" but no, that asshole hurried back to the village where he KNEW he was going to have to kill tons of people! That monster!

Also worth noting is the way you just swept past MW for "they're military." Believe it or not, I'm actually far more comfortable shooting Serbian War Criminals/Illegal Thug Mercenaries than I am in killing Marines, like we had to do in Modern Warfare 2. Or, I dunno, that whole airport scene.

But hey, know what the real kicker is? This is totally your problem. Sounds like you have plenty of reason to not think Drake is a good guy, that he is a piece of shit like Nyko. Not only does Drake apparently love killing people, but he also plans to backstab his friend Flynn, ditch a young woman alone on an island while he and his old buddy go get treasure, and steal from a museum. Yet, you find yourself liking him, instead of just saying "yeah, he's a piece of trash."

So, the real question is, what's wrong with you? Why do you want to like this horrible man so much? It's like battered-woman-syndrome, where a girl believes if their boyfriend just changes this one thing he will be the most wonderful man in the history of the world. Is it because he's so durn pretty?

 

[Lunchbox]

this thread needs a "heroes of the web" reading by jeff green

garnetts posts read in the voice of whiskey nerd

 

[StuBurns]

I know, right? Like that time he and Tenzin come out of the Ice Cavern and see that the Tibetan village is being shot up by soldiers and overrun by tanks. He could have just said "well, let's go this way, cuz killing is wrong" but no, that asshole hurried back to the village where he KNEW he was going to have to kill tons of people! That monster!

Funny.

Also worth noting is the way you just swept past MW for "they're military." Believe it or not, I'm actually far more comfortable shooting Serbian War Criminals/Illegal Thug Mercenaries than I am in killing Marines, like we had to do in Modern Warfare 2. Or, I dunno, that whole airport scene.

Well I 'swept past' those games for a few of reasons, firstly they're military, and murder is the illegal killing of a human, they aren't murderers outside of the ending of MW2. They also don't know notable personalities. It's also not a single person.

But hey, know what the real kicker is? This is totally your problem. Sounds like you have plenty of reason to not think Drake is a good guy, that he is a piece of shit like Nyko. Not only does Drake apparently love killing people, but he also plans to backstab his friend Flynn, ditch a young woman alone on an island while he and his old buddy go get treasure, and steal from a museum. Yet, you find yourself liking him, instead of just saying "yeah, he's a piece of trash."

It's Niko, not Nyko. I don't like Drake. I don't believe I said I did. I said they portray him as a nice guy, a loveable rogue character.

So, the real question is, what's wrong with you? Why do you want to like this horrible man so much? It's like battered-woman-syndrome, where a girl believes if their boyfriend just changes this one thing he will be the most wonderful man in the history of the world. Is it because he's so durn pretty?

I don't like the horrible man.

 

[entremet]

wow @ this thread.

 

[Curufinwe]

Lara Croft is a better comparison, imo

Why?

 

[LiK]

Why?

Kills way more than any Indy movie.

 

[Bigfoot]

Why?

Because Nathan Drake is the male version of Lara Croft (with a bit of Gears mixed in).

 

[Curufinwe]

Oh, I see. I do remember mowing down a ton of dudes in Tomb Raider 2. It was much less fun than killing gorillas and dinosaurs in the original.

 

[Duffyside]

Funny.

Well I 'swept past' those games for a few of reasons, firstly they're military, and murder is the illegal killing of a human, they aren't murderers outside of the ending of MW2. They also don't know notable personalities. It's also not a single person.

It's Niko, not Nyko. I don't like Drake. I don't believe I said I did. I said they portray him as a nice guy, a loveable rogue character.

I don't like the horrible man.

I take it you mean "they aren't notable personalities?" To which I disagree completely, especially with Captain Price and Soap.

The illegal killing of a human as determined by whom? By what body? There may have been plenty of killing authorized by an American gov't, or an American official, but does that automatically make it ok with you? It takes a few steps back from immorality because somebody said it was all right?

And it sounds like you only want characters that are either obviously rotten, or totally angelic, with no room for degrees of variation in between. There is a solution to this: it's called every other game. Or Star Wars. Blue = good, red = bad. Enjoy.

 

[Dogfacedgod]

I'm gonna shift gears and go back to the whole male vs. female character thing in games.

I think with very few exceptions, Heavy Rain being one, the gender of the main protagonist is a game is irrelevant. Most games do not have stories that depend on the differing viewpoints of either men or women. Look at Bioware games, you can pick your gender but the story, as good and in-depth as they are, are identical regardless of the sex of the main character.

Nathan Drake stood of the shoulders of Lara Croft to get where he is. The Tomb Raider games arguably owe some of their early success to Lara's...assets....but in terms of story, gender doesn't matter.

Can anyone name a game other than Heavy Rain, regardless of whether or not the female lead is a scantily clad sexpot or a "strong female lead," where it actually matters that the character is female in terms of story?

 

[StuBurns]

I take it you mean "they aren't notable personalities?" To which I disagree completely, especially with Captain Price and Soap.

Okay, I'll rephrase. Those games are too shit for me to care about.

The illegal killing of a human as determined by whom? By what body? There may have been plenty of killing authorized by an American gov't, or an American official, but does that automatically make it ok with you? It takes a few steps back from immorality because somebody said it was all right?

The reason I skipped past the 'legal killings' was because I didn't want to debate this issue. I agree with you in this regard. And I don't think there is anything honorable about killing for one's country, however a lot of GAF do and are very sensitive about it.

And it sounds like you only want characters that are either obviously rotten, or totally angelic, with no room for degrees of variation in between. There is a solution to this: it's called every other game. Or Star Wars. Blue = good, red = bad. Enjoy.

I only want well written characters, they can be any shade of gray they choose, I don't think Drake and the cast of Uncharted are.

 

[Kintaro]

Okay, lets look at that claim.

Uncharted begins on a boat, he is 'jumped' by people shooting at him, he claims this has happened before, even if he's lying to comfort the woman, he could decide to bail on the whole thing once they escape that situation, he knows carrying on will likely result in him having to kill more people, but he does it.

Uncharted 2 begins (chronologically, the game actually begins in medias res) with Drake meeting an old friend and deciding to rob something and not hurt anyone, they're going to use stealth and no guns (ultimately they use tranq darts). Drake is double crossed, caught and goes to prison. When he gets out he could have gone back to the States, instead he decides to go along with a plan that they must have known would involve killing tons of people.

Wow. You must like some short ass games. Drake is just supposed to 1) give up on the find he has been looking for and a link to someone he believes he is related to and 2) not go after a clear link to the mythical city of Shambhala?

By this logic, he shouldn't have agreed to steal anything to begin or to run off with Chloe (which would definitely cause a confrontation with the other guy). Nor would he even be a treasure hunter because he certainly doesn't want to chance running afoul of any shady characters.

It's not a good excuse to say Drake is in a bad situation, because he deliberately puts himself in those situations, repeatedly.

Duh! That's what rogues do! Even the lovable ones! What part of "they are not good people" wasn't clear? From the start, Drake and Sully wanted to get rich (and more). How do you get rich quick? Shady shit.

It's also not a good excuse to say 'shooting things in games is fun' or 'shooters sell'. Those things are true, but that doesn't nullify the dissonance some people are experiencing. It was touched on why Uncharted is usually the example given, and ultimately it's because it's the worst offender of this by a country mile while still being a major series. Lots of people addressed this in various ways, make the protagonist a scum bag, make the bag guys robots or aliens or zombies, etc. ND have decide to just ignore the issue, and hope people don't care, and for the most part they're right.

No, it is simply because Drake is NOT like every single other hero in gaming who are either complete psychopaths from the get go, or roided up, in the military or what the hell ever. No one calls Lara Croft a mass murderer, yet she has killed tons of humans in her games and the game barely bats an eyelash.

ND hasn't ignored it. Hell, they threw in an ironic line by the bad guy in U2 about it. Gamers just don't get it. Also, why should ND care? Pulp heroes offed people, Indiana Jones offed people, Lara Croft offed people. Comic book heroes cause untold amounts of death and destruction. So, they're supposed to take the time to care that Drake going after the city of Shambhala may cause some trouble for mercs or a war criminal?

Oh, my brain...

 

[StuBurns]

No, it is simply because Drake is NOT like every single other hero in gaming who are either complete psychopaths from the get go, or roided up, in the military or what the hell ever. No one calls Lara Croft a mass murderer, yet she has killed tons of humans in her games and the game barely bats an eyelash.

ND hasn't ignored it. Hell, they threw in an ironic line by the bad guy in U2 about it. Gamers just don't get it. Also, why should ND care? Pulp heroes offed people, Indiana Jones offed people, Lara Croft offed people. Comic book heroes cause untold amounts of death and destruction. So, they're supposed to take the time to care that Drake going after the city of Shambhala may cause some trouble for mercs or a war criminal?

Oh, my brain...

People do comment about those things. Uncharted is not the only game that gets brought up. In fact Tomb Raider has a running joke of 'murdering endangered species' because it stands out to people.

I didn't say ND should care. In fact I said they clearly don't need to.

 

[firehawk12]

I'll just say, when your character has a higher body count than Jack Bauer - who is clearly an anti-hero - maybe you need to reconsider what your character is doing in your text.

 

[Dogfacedgod]

Question...

If there weren't all those firefights in the Uncharted games, and it was pure exploration and puzzle solving, other than the games being much quicker to play through, would they still be as fun?

 

[Kintaro]

I'll just say, when your character has a higher body count than Jack Bauer - who is clearly an anti-hero - maybe you need to reconsider what your character is doing in your text.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xss4SzaJBoA

Of course, 24 also had entire episodes where Jack paces or moped or whined or is barely even features at all. =)

Question...

If there weren't all those firefights in the Uncharted games, and it was pure exploration and puzzle solving, other than the games being much quicker to play through, would they still be as fun?

If it was pure Tomb Raider with no guns, in other words? No. It wouldn't be. It also wouldn't have sold as much and become the premiere Sony 1st party franchise.

 

[StuBurns]

Question...

If there weren't all those firefights in the Uncharted games, and it was pure exploration and puzzle solving, other than the games being much quicker to play through, would they still be as fun?

I think it'd be way more fun, the best three levels in Uncharted are the three in the second game where there is very little gun fighting.

However I seriously doubt it'd sell.

If it was pure Tomb Raider with no guns, in other words? No. It wouldn't be. It also wouldn't have sold as much and become the premiere Sony 1st party franchise.

When did this happen? GT gone third party now?

 

[LiK]

I think it'd be way more fun, the best three levels in Uncharted are the three in the second game where there is very little gun fighting.

However I seriously doubt it'd sell.

I concur, UC doesn't need a lot of gunplay and I would still enjoy it. The quiet moments with pure platforming are just as fun.

 

[firehawk12]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xss4SzaJBoA

Of course, 24 also had entire episodes where Jack paces or moped or whined or is barely even features at all. =)

That's both amazing and frightening!

 

[Bigfoot]

Question...

If there weren't all those firefights in the Uncharted games, and it was pure exploration and puzzle solving, other than the games being much quicker to play through, would they still be as fun?

Yes, more fun infact. I play Uncharted for the story and exploration. The gunplay is fun too but it is third on the list. If they made the gunplay a minor aspect and spent more time making good puzzles, I would be very happy. I also had the same thoughts on the Prince of Persia series last gen (well maybe not the story so much).

 

[Kusagari]

Bauer's kill count through all the seasons combined is 266. Drake breaks that in an hour of gameplay.

 

[firehawk12]

Yes, more fun infact. I play Uncharted for the story and exploration. The gunplay is fun too but it is third on the list. If they made the gunplay a minor aspect and spent more time making good puzzles, I would be very happy. I also had the same thoughts on the Prince of Persia series last gen (well maybe not the story so much).

Speaking of which, in terms of charming heroes, Nolan North as the Prince was at least more convincing than Nolan North as Nathan Drake, mostly because the Prince just jumped around walls and had witty banter with the girl sidekick. The combat was almost perfunctory.

 

[mik]

There's a level of abstraction required in pretty much all video games--at least that's how my brain processes them. I don't take the shootout sections as the literal sequence of events that occurs between Drake getting from point A to point B--that's just the "game" part.

Perhaps that's a bullshit way of thinking, but you have to go there to an extent in almost all games. That's how your soldier in Call of Duty can take a half dozen shots and not only remain standing, but actually heal completely in 10 seconds. Or how you can smash your car into a concrete barrier, back up, and continue a race, etc.

 

[Neuromancer]

So, what is the okay number of people to kill? 400? 200? 15? 5? May want to let Naughty Dog know so they have a number to aim for.

Less than 800 would be an improvement.

 

[Rahxephon91]

Edit-Nvm

 

[Kintaro]

Less than 800 would be an improvement.

799? Cool.

 

[MrPliskin]

Jeff - This thread waits for you:


http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=406418

 

[JaxJag]

Man, that Dead Space discussion was so awful.

They don't like Dead Space because it's scary, but it's not scary, but Garnett isn't a fan of survival horror, but he likes Resident Evil so he is a fan of the genre...

They didn't even point out anything wrong with the game other than it's like Doom 3, which it isn't.

They should have just edited that whole segment out of the podcast.

 

[Neuromancer]

799? Cool.

I know you're being facetious but that's my opinion. Well anyway it's a moot point, Uncharted 2 is what it is, Uncharted 3 will probably be more of the same, and I'll play something else instead. Everyone wins.

 

[LiK]

Man, that Dead Space discussion was so awful.

They don't like Dead Space because it's scary, but it's not scary, but Garnett isn't a fan of survival horror, but he likes Resident Evil so he is a fan of the genre...

They didn't even point out anything wrong with the game other than it's like Doom 3, which it isn't.

They should have just edited that whole segment out of the podcast.

I wish Jeff Mattas was there to defend it. DS was basically a punching bag during that whole segment. That is why I had to post my reaction so strongly.

 

[Kusagari]

Uncharted 2 did totally have too many dudes though. The game went on way too long and I just felt fatigued by the end.

 

[Dogfacedgod]

Yes, more fun infact. I play Uncharted for the story and exploration. The gunplay is fun too but it is third on the list. If they made the gunplay a minor aspect and spent more time making good puzzles, I would be very happy. I also had the same thoughts on the Prince of Persia series last gen (well maybe not the story so much).

I agree that the gunfights can tend to drag on. But aren't those enemies integral to the story? As in, they represent, literally and figuratively, the conflict that Nathan has to overcome to reach his goal? Do you think they're necessary to provide tension and a sense of urgency to the game?

 

[Curufinwe]

I wish Jeff Mattas was there to defend it. DS was basically a punching bag during that whole segment. That is why I had to post my reaction so strongly.

Or Mark McDonald. Hopefully it comes up the next time Make and Garnett do a podcast together.

 

[dralla]

The combat was a lot of fun UC2. I really hope they continue to push the "sandboxy-ness" of it in UC3 and don't go the totally scripted route. There are fights in UC2 I've played 5+ times and still have fun with them just messing around with different tactics/weapons.

As for Dead Space, I think Mark oversold it to Garnett. I like the games but the way Mark talks about it is really strange. There's really not a creative bone in its body, everything in DS has been done before, its strength is in its execution. If you go in expecting something new or evolutionary in the horror genre, you will be very disappointed.