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[MogCakes]

Title says it. This came up in the dating thread when I made a remark about people being closed to dating transgender people, using 'close minded' which, albeit intended without the negative connotation, incited a heated response and sparked a debate between myself and Septimius about how much of a woman transgender women are.

This is not about if they look pretty or not. Everything from their tendons, to their pelvis tilt, to their fat deposits, to their glands, to their thyroid, to their spleen, to the nerve endings in their anus and boobs. They might look female, but that doesn't mean the physical differences aren't huge. I love the female anatomy, and a trans woman doesn't have the intricacies of the female anatomy.

My own argument is that if they have female reproductive organs and are taking hormones, there isn't much difference at all, and I think going so far as to point out fat deposits among other things to differentiate trans women from women is a bit absurd.

 

[BocoDragon]

If there's a Y chromosome... I would not.

Sorry Jamie Lee Curtis.

 

[collige]

Why should any potential partner care about your spleen? If the person in question is pre- or non-op, I could see there being problems sex-wise, but otherwise, there's no reason have any sort of bias.

 

[Malvolio]

"In a thousand years, there will be no men and women, just wankers, and that's fine by me."

- Rent-boy

 

[Deleted member 231381]

"In a thousand years, there will be no men and women, just wankers, and that's fine by me."

- Rent-boy

Your avatar looks sort of like Evilore and it amuses me.

 

[Wazzy]

If I love someone why would them being transgendered suddenly change that? I found them attractive, we're compatible and happy so I'm not going to suddenly start seeing them differently. If they see themselves as male or female, then they are.

 

[GungHo]

I go with "ask her".

 

[crowphoenix]

Seems to me like you hit a nerve.

As for what I'd do? I dunno. I'd like to think I wouldn't care, but I have not been in that situation.

 

[Prophet Steve]

If someone identifies as a certain gender, I have no issues with acknowledging them as that gender.

That you consider someone unattractive because the person was physically born as a different gender is fine, but just keep it at that and don't make a bigger deal out of it.

 

[John Kowalski]

is this a trial by fire

let me pray for a bit before i answer

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Isn't the woman the one who decides?

 

[Photolysis]

I don't consider them women full stop. It's not about drawing a line in the sand on female characteristics, I'm not even drawing the line in the first place. If you have a Y chromosome, you're not a woman in my eyes, however you wish to define yourself (and I'll support your right to do so).

Now maybe this is an extremely ignorant view. However, since I think we lack a better way to define gender, it's what I'm going by in the meantime. I imagine advances on our knowledge of the brain will at some point allow a more definitive answer, at which point I'll be happy to revise my opinion.

Now let's imagine a hypothetical scenario (which might not be so hypothetical in future) of a brain transplant or something, where a transgender person has their brain placed into a body of the other gender. It becomes far more complicated then, and you'd probably need a better definition, possibly based on the underlying brain structure or something.

if they have female reproductive organs

I don't take this view though. To be blunt, a surgeon's hack job ain't the same thing for me, and they're certainly not reproductive.

 

[Hollycat]

If I could change my genes to become female in DNA, I would. I can't so I wont.

And no I'm not gay. I just like the female body better.

I can call a Trans woman a woman, but I'm not going to sleep with her.

 

[Kinyou]

Isn't the woman the one who decides?

When it gets to stuff like male prison or female prison it's not really up to the individual anymore

 

[Holy Order Sol]

I go with "ask her".

Basically. No one has a say in it except the woman herself.

 

[Booty Patrol]

Now maybe this is an extremely ignorant view.

'maybe'

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

When it gets to stuff like male prison or female prison it's not really up to the individual anymore

Don't think the premise of the OP is that involved

 

[Zeyphersan]

WE don't decide anything. They decide. There's no committee for this sort of thing, nor should there be.

 

[timetokill]

I didn't see the discussion in the other thread, but...
There's a difference between sex and gender, right? You can pick any gender you want but you're born a certain sex, certain chromosomes, etc.

So wouldn't it follow that being heterosexual would be attraction to the opposite sex, not the opposite gender, necessarily?

Honestly asking. I certainly respect anybody's decision regarding their gender.

 

[Onemic]

I don't consider them women full stop. It's not about drawing a line in the sand on female characteristics, I'm not even drawing the line in the first place. If you have a Y chromosome, you're not a woman in my eyes, however you wish to define yourself (and I'll support your right to do so).

Now maybe this is an extremely ignorant view. However, since I think we lack a better way to define gender, it's what I'm going by in the meantime. I imagine advances on our knowledge of the brain will at some point allow a more definitive answer, at which point I'll be happy to revise my opinion.

Now let's imagine a hypothetical scenario (which might not be so hypothetical in future) of a brain transplant or something, where a transgender person has their brain placed into a body of the other gender. It becomes far more complicated then, and you'd probably need a better definition, possibly based on the underlying brain structure or something.



I don't take this view though. To be blunt, a surgeon's hack job ain't the same thing for me, and they're certainly not reproductive.

What do you think about the voice actor for Angelica in rugrats then?(intersexed people basically)

 

[ArchedThunder]

A trans-woman is a woman to me, it's as simple as that.

 

[Liseda]

I don't see why I would decide for someone else.

 

[Transhuman]

Cross-fit.

 

[Grym]

why do "we" get to decide something?

Who cares

 

[EmiPrime]

Isn't the woman the one who decides?

/thread

Cis people debating over how legitimate or illegitimate trans women are is nauseating. It's not your place to dissect and criticise other people's identities and then make some judgement, it's the height of privilege to do so. These threads just ooze with trans misogyny.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

If it's not for medical reasons, i don't see any purpose to coming up with a concrete metric for "manliness/womanliness." Whether someone gets referred to as a man/woman is up to them. If people are interested in them sexually, then the matter can discussed further between the parties involved. If you're sexually attracted to women, that doesn't mean you have to attracted to people who identify as women, and vice versa.

 

[Hatchtag]

You were in a dating thread, that's the thing.
I'm all for equal rights and stuff. But, there's no equal rights in dating. You wouldn't date someone you weren't attracted to, and frankly, a large amount of straight guys aren't attracted to trans-gendered women. That's just the way things are. It doesn't make a person "close-minded" to not be attracted to trans-gendered people.

 

[NathanMcMahon]

I think whenever the person in question wants to be considered either male or female. Not really up to me or anyone else I think. I'm sure this runs into issues in regards to laws and culture at large.

 

[Opiate]

I'm honestly more interested in discussing how male a cis male is. I have male genital organs and XY chromosomes. What percentage male am I without any further information?

 

[crowphoenix]

/thread

Cis people debating over how legitimate or illegitimate trans women are is nauseating. It's not your place to dissect and criticise other people's identities and then make some judgement, it's the height of privilege to do so. These threads just ooze with trans misogyny.

If my response is offensive, I do apologize. That was not my intent.

 

[Weiss]

If somebody identifies as male, I call them male.

If somebody identifies as female, I call them female.

Pretty simple to me.

 

[Antti]

I think everyone has has the authority to decide who to date themselves (since this is essentially the question). It is something I would want disclosed.

Some people don't date people who are fat. Some people don't date people who are uninteresting. Some people don't date ugly people. Some people don't date people who were born a man.

EDIT: Whoever recognizes themselves as female can be female and vice versa. However, I think it's a too big of an omission if you don't tell the person you're dating that you're trans.

 

[ArchedThunder]

What do you think about the voice actor for Angelica in rugrats then?(intersexed people basically)

You're mixed up there buddy, that's a different Cheryl Chase.

 

[SamVimes]

Your avatar looks sort of like Evilore and it amuses me.

I believe that's Peter Gabriel in a The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway poster.

on topic if you don't find transexual women attractive there's nothing anyone can do about that, but if someone identify himself or herself as a man or a woman you should accept that.

 

[Kinyou]

Don't think the premise of the OP is that involved

Well from the title I figured that he also asks beyond dating.

 

[perfectchaos007]

I'm honestly more interested in discussing how male a cis male is. I have male genital organs and XY chromosomes. What percentage male am I without any further information?

Your sex is 100% male, but your gender is whatever you identify in your head so anywhere between 0-100%

 

[Photolysis]

What do you think about the voice actor for Angelica in rugrats then?(intersexed people basically)

If it's a dichotomy, would probably go by chromosomes. Otherwise I'd probably include them in a third category.

If it's not for medical reasons, i don't see any purpose to coming up with a concrete metric for "manliness/womanliness." Whether someone gets referred to as a man/woman is up to them. If people are interested in them sexually, then the matter can discussed further between the parties involved. If you're sexually attracted to women, that doesn't mean you have to attracted to people who identify as women, and vice versa.

I agree with this. I suppose people being able to define themselves how they like. If you feel comfortable identifying as a woman, I support you doing that. I'll address you as your preferred gender. But I sure as hell don't have to accept it privately.

 

[GungHo]

I'm honestly more interested in discussing how male a cis male is. I have male genital organs and XY chromosomes. What percentage male am I without any further information?

How many cords of wood have you chopped in your lifetime?

 

[Drazgul]

I'm honestly more interested in discussing how male a cis male is. I have male genital organs and XY chromosomes. What percentage male am I without any further information?

Depends, how big is your beard?

 

[Booty Patrol]

You wouldn't date someone you weren't attracted to, and frankly, a large amount of straight guys aren't attracted to trans-gendered women. That's just the way things are. It doesn't make a person "close-minded" to not be attracted to trans-gendered people.

There is a reason why trans women are considered undesirable, why try to take the easy way out and explain it away by saying 'that's just the way things are'?

 

[John Kowalski]

I don't see why I would decide for someone else.

Well, i understand the need for a semantic agreement for the betterment of the discussion surrounding gender fluidity. Without strong, graspable concepts that can support and give strong, graspable meaning to arguments, everyone would be at a loss as to how and why to even discuss the subject. Never mind how having a need to redefine "woman", but not being able to leaves the word with a semantic malleability that very easily be abused by those who wish only to discriminate and to justify their bigotry with shady, uninformed definitions that help only their ego.

Like that one poster.

I'm honestly more interested in discussing how male a cis male is. I have male genital organs and XY chromosomes. What percentage male am I without any further information?

You're... neither? Lacking information doesn't inform.

 

[Wiktor]

If somebody identifies as male, I call them male.

If somebody identifies as female, I call them female.

Pretty simple to me.

I do too, but I'm not sure if I wouldn't have troubles dating a post-op woman.

 

[Palmer_v1]

I'm honestly more interested in discussing how male a cis male is. I have male genital organs and XY chromosomes. What percentage male am I without any further information?

Do you watch football?

Edit: NM, that's more information. I'm going to go with 67% for no valid reasons at all.

 

[EloquentM]

If I love someone why would them being transgendered suddenly change that? I found them attractive, we're compatible and happy so I'm not going to suddenly start seeing them differently. If they see themselves as male or female, then they are.

Because believe it or not attractiveness has a lot to do with physical traits just as much as it does personality traits. And those end up stemming into more than just "does this person look like a man" or "was this person born a woman"

 

[John Rabbit]

the idea of being attracted to somebody and their gender are completely, completely separate ideas. some transgender people are more attractive than cisgender people. the degree to which they are a "woman" or a "man" has little bearing other than whether or not you are attracted to that gender.

 

[daviyoung]

I treat everyone as male

 

[Hollycat]

Your sex is 100% male, but your gender is whatever you identify in your head so anywhere between 0-100%

So since I think of myself with female pronouns, should other people consider me female as well?

Genuine question. I have a beard.

 

[EmiPrime]

I think everyone has has the authority to decide who to date themselves (since this is essentially the question). It is something I would want disclosed.

Some people don't date people who are fat. Some people don't date people who are uninteresting. Some people don't date ugly people. Some people don't date people who were born a man.

There's no such thing as being born a man.

Also you'd have to be really imperceptive to not realise that this is very different. The whole "would you date a trans woman" thing picks apart the identity of the person, it's not the same as being fat. It's a weapon used to bludgeon trans women with even though the likelihood of you ever dating a trans woman is really really really really slim.

 

[Hatchtag]

There is a reason why trans women are considered undesirable, why try to take the easy way out and explain it away by saying 'that's just the way things are'?

For exactly that reason, to take the easy way out. I didn't feel like typing up "They're not attracted to people who are born with the same genitalia as them, and that's perfectly fine." I kind of figured people would just mentally put that in there. Wasn't trying to avoid a discussion or anything, was just trying to simplify my post.

 

[Reishiki]

To be blunt, a surgeon's hack job ain't the same thing for me

Are you a gynecologist? Any decent surgeon would be able to fool you.

Hey, if you don't get on with me because I'm not a 'real' woman, chances are I don't want to be friends with you anyway.