Support NeoGAF

[Rentahamster]

Title says it. This came up in the dating thread when I made a remark about people being closed to dating transgender people, using 'close minded' which, albeit intended without the negative connotation, incited a heated response and sparked a debate between myself and Septimius about how much of a woman transgender women are.

I didn't click the quote referral link to read the rest of your conversations about it, but what I think is going on here is a misunderstanding in the subject of what you are discussing. i.e. you two are talking about different things.

Septimius is commenting on the subjective qualities he finds in another person to make that person be attractive to him.

You are commenting on the what objective characteristics of a person that we should use as metrics in order to "classify" a person as a "woman".

He is talking about what makes a person attractive to his tastes, you are talking about what makes a woman a woman. Two different things.

 

[John Kowalski]

I treat everyone as male

do you also call everyone victor?

 

[hodgy100]

/thread

Cis people debating over how legitimate or illegitimate trans women are is nauseating. It's not your place to dissect and criticise other people's identities and then make some judgement, it's the height of privilege to do so. These threads just ooze with trans misogyny.

I agree, but I hate being assigned the label Cis, its starting to become a slur...

Unless you have access to the person's medical files, you can't really by 100% sure what sex they were born with. Considering that most people, when first dating, don't have such intimate knowledge, it's a weird line to draw in the sand.

As I mentioned in the thread, drawing this weird line around female organs like not wanting to date someone without a female thyroid is absurd. I don't have a thyroid; I have to take hormones. I guess I should let dudes know that not every part of my body functions in a "standard female" way and that I have to compensate it with medication.

thats a strawman and you know it.

 

[Pau]

I didn't see the discussion in the other thread, but...
There's a difference between sex and gender, right? You can pick any gender you want but you're born a certain sex, certain chromosomes, etc.

So wouldn't it follow that being heterosexual would be attraction to the opposite sex, not the opposite gender, necessarily?

Honestly asking. I certainly respect anybody's decision regarding their gender.

Unless you have access to the person's medical files, you can't really by 100% sure what sex they were born with. Considering that most people, when first dating, don't have such intimate knowledge, it's a weird line to draw in the sand.

As I mentioned in the thread, drawing this weird line around female organs like not wanting to date someone without a female thyroid is absurd. I don't have a thyroid; I have to take hormones. I guess I should let dudes know that not every part of my body functions in a "standard female" way and that I have to compensate it with medication.

 

[EmiPrime]

So since I think of myself with female pronouns, should other people consider me female as well?

Genuine question. I have a beard.

If you want to use female pronouns and would rather people use those in reference to you go for it. There's nothing wrong or inferior about them.

 

[Hollycat]

Are you a gynecologist? Any decent surgeon would be able to fool you.

Hey, if you don't get on with me because I'm not a 'real' woman, chances are I don't want to be friends with you anyway.

I can see both sides of that argument. The womans view is obvious, but for the man in that situation, it's a little different. Technically in a purely scientific viewpoint, the woman is still a man, and nothing can ever change that. He can consider her both female and male at the same time without even intending it.

 

[mantidor]

We often judge how much of a "man" or a "woman" someone is even if they aren't trans.

I say we shouldn't really worry that much about it.

 

[PhoenixDark]

Personally I think it's pathetic of anyone to call a straight male "close minded" for preferring to date a person who was born a biological/genetic female.

I support trans people's right to be identified as whichever gender they know they are. That doesn't mean I am a bigot for not considering a relationship with one.

 

[perfectchaos007]

So since I think of myself with female pronouns, should other people consider me female as well?

Genuine question. I have a beard.

Well if your gender identity was female, i highly doubt your female self would WANT a beard. So, that would make it difficult from a believably standpoint to have others identify you as female.

 

[EmiPrime]

If my response is offensive, I do apologize. That was not my intent.

That's okay I hope you can learn from this topic.

I agree, but I hate being assigned the label Cis, its starting to become a slur...

lol.

 

[KaiserBecks]

Weird question. Are you confusing being a woman with being feminine? Of course, the person gets to decide whether or not she's a woman. That doesn't mean that I think she's feminine.
The same applies to a "born woman" (I can't remember the term, sorry) though, so I don't see what being trans-gender has to do with this?

 

[sixteen-bit]

Only cis people know

 

[daviyoung]

do you also call everyone victor?

if their names are boring yes

 

[MogCakes]

/thread

Cis people debating over how legitimate or illegitimate trans women are is nauseating. It's not your place to dissect and criticise other people's identities and then make some judgement, it's the height of privilege to do so. These threads just ooze with trans misogyny.

I agree. One of the points brought up by others in the dating thread was that women can identify as a female (gender), but their physiological makeup (sex) would still be male if born that way - my counter was that post-op that's really not an issue anymore, which was countered with the XY chromosome point and the quoted post from Septimius in the OP.

I don't personally think any of us have the right to say, but I feel this is something that should be discussed, if nothing else to raise awareness of the topic.

You were in a dating thread, that's the thing.
I'm all for equal rights and stuff. But, there's no equal rights in dating. You wouldn't date someone you weren't attracted to, and frankly, a large amount of straight guys aren't attracted to trans-gendered women. That's just the way things are. It doesn't make a person "close-minded" to not be attracted to trans-gendered people.

I was told using close-minded was probably not the best choice of words, and I can recognize that. In my mind the context of its use didn't apply the negative connotation, but I was wrong.

 

[Pau]

thats a strawman and you know it.

He's the one who brought up a female thyroid, not me.

 

[CHEEZMO™]

I agree, but I hate being assigned the label Cis, its starting to become a slur...

lmao

 

[Opiate]

I agree with the answers above, by the way. That was really a question to prompt debate.

My understanding of gender is that it's mostly (or entirely) a psychological phenomenon, and that it's mostly outside of a person's control in any meaningful way.

 

[hodgy100]

That's okay I hope you can learn from this topic.



lol.

lmao

problem?

I understand the hypocracy but my point remains. and the replies of "lol" and "lmao" further cements the feeling that ther term is used to look down on a group of people (even if it is the larger group), i've seen it used in a vindictive and venomous way too often.

and before I get completely trashed my personal view is that a man is a man, a woman is a woman, a man that has a sex change to a woman is a woman, and a woman that has a sex change to a man is a man.

 

[crowphoenix]

That's okay I hope you can learn from this topic.

Always trying.

 

[collige]

EDIT: Whoever recognizes themselves as female can be female and vice versa. However, I think it's a too big of an omission if you don't tell the person you're dating that you're trans.

Now this is a much more relevant issue than the OP. Disclosing trans status on say, the first date, is not really something most people would do, especially after putting an exorbitant amount of effort into their gender presentation. This is made worse when you consider how violently people may react to hearing such information. Obviously, if you're pre- or non-op, you should probably say something before the clothes come off, but otherwise I view it as irrelevant in the context of a romantic outing.

 

[Antti]

There's no such thing as being born a man.

Also you'd have to be really imperceptive to not realise that this is very different. The whole "would you date a trans woman" thing picks apart the identity of the person, it's not the same as being fat. It's a weapon used to bludgeon trans women with even though the likelihood of you ever dating a trans woman is really really really really slim.

Let's say I would like to have the information disclosed that you're not really sure what you were born as? Or whatever is the PC way of saying what I want to say.

I wasn't saying it's the same as being fat. I said you can't pick what others like when it comes to dating. Don't try to twist my words to fit your agenda. Bludgeon trans women? Really?

 

[Hollycat]

Well if your gender identity was female, i highly doubt your female self would WANT a beard. So, that would make it difficult from a believably standpoint to have others identify you as female.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, in my mind because I can never actually be female, there's no point in just looking like one. Mimicry is the purest form of flattery, but in my purely logical view my body would still be male. In the same viewpoint, I don't know if I actually want people to think of me as female, even though I think of myself as so. Besides, a female with my bone structure would look bizarre.

I keep the beard because it makes my face look less like a 12 year old boy.

 

[Nesotenso]

no one should be deciding. If someone sees themselves as transgendered then just respect them.

But I acknowledge I am hypocritical when it comes to dating or having a relationship aspect.

 

[EmiPrime]

problem?

You're as amusing as the people who complain about being called heterosexual. "I'm not heterosexual, stop categorising me, i'm just normal".

Always trying.

Awesome.

 

[Nephtis]

Unless you have access to the person's medical files, you can't really by 100% sure what sex they were born with. Considering that most people, when first dating, don't have such intimate knowledge, it's a weird line to draw in the sand.

As I mentioned in the thread, drawing this weird line around female organs like not wanting to date someone without a female thyroid is absurd. I don't have a thyroid; I have to take hormones. I guess I should let dudes know that not every part of my body functions in a "standard female" way and that I have to compensate it with medication.

I think for a lot of us it boils down to reproducing. I don't much care what sex a person was born with -- I will treat them the way they present themselves to me as. However, I don't know that I would *date* said person if they are transgendered. Even she was post-op and I could not feel the difference between someone who is transgender vs cis. In the end, I want to have a baby to carry on my legacy.

That's where it stops making a difference for me though. You tell me you're a woman, I will take your word for it and treat you no different than I do any and all women, which is with, y'know, respect.

 

[Chainsawkitten]

You don't. If you're not attracted to certain physical attributes, that's fine, regardless of whether they're typically male or female. But those are irrelevant to "how much of a woman/man" someone is. If you're not attracted to someone who's MTF because of their physical traits, that's perfectly fine. But you don't get to call them not a woman. Or are women only people whom you're attracted to?

 

[Gherid__lacksGPS]

I don't consider them women full stop. It's not about drawing a line in the sand on female characteristics, I'm not even drawing the line in the first place. If you have a Y chromosome, you're not a woman in my eyes, however you wish to define yourself (and I'll support your right to do so).

Now maybe this is an extremely ignorant view. However, since I think we lack a better way to define gender, it's what I'm going by in the meantime. I imagine advances on our knowledge of the brain will at some point allow a more definitive answer, at which point I'll be happy to revise my opinion.

Now let's imagine a hypothetical scenario (which might not be so hypothetical in future) of a brain transplant or something, where a transgender person has their brain placed into a body of the other gender. It becomes far more complicated then, and you'd probably need a better definition, possibly based on the underlying brain structure or something.

I don't take this view though. To be blunt, a surgeon's hack job ain't the same thing for me, and they're certainly not reproductive.

Your view isn't ignorant at all; it's objectively indifferent based on both foundational genetic attributes and ones own psyche.

Although, because I'm an asshole, I do draw the line because it's pretty obvious what sex and gender intent is when you're born - minus a few "abnormalities" in alleles now and again. People are free to do what they want. If you're born with a certain genetic make up, which was obviously intended to compliment another series of genetic elements, and you decide to "switch the game up," then fine whatever. I just think there's something psychologically wrong with you and people are trying too hard with arguments of relativity to justify it.

 

[EmiPrime]

Let's say I would like to have the information disclosed that you're not really sure what you were born as? Or whatever is the PC way of saying what I want to say.

I wasn't saying it's the same as being fat. I said you can't pick what others like when it comes to dating. Don't try to twist my words to fit your agenda. Bludgeon trans women? Really?

You're confusing being PC with being polite. When said disclosure can result in violence and outing and other maliciousness it's not something that gets blurted out just because someone bought you dinner.

I don't need to twist your words, your agenda is very clear.

 

[Deified Data]

Let people decide for themselves how much of a man or woman they are and if you find their given ratio fuckable, then by all means.

I love women. Whatever she's hooked up with downstairs doesn't concern me terribly. I can think of quite a bit to do with any configuration.

 

[timetokill]

Unless you have access to the person's medical files, you can't really by 100% sure what sex they were born with. Considering that most people, when first dating, don't have such intimate knowledge, it's a weird line to draw in the sand.

As I mentioned in the thread, drawing this weird line around female organs like not wanting to date someone without a female thyroid is absurd. I don't have a thyroid; I have to take hormones. I guess I should let dudes know that not every part of my body functions in a "standard female" way and that I have to compensate it with medication.

Well, sure. Though a lot of times you can be pretty sure based on certain physical features, etc. So even though somebody might say they are female they might not be attractive to you, just like a straight man isn't interested in all females, and so on.

But beyond that, let's say you find a transwoman attractive, but you are not interested in casual dating, but are looking for long-term relationships that could lead to marriage and having children. Wouldn't the presence of functioning female reproductive organs be a necessity in that situation? It's a bit different from a thyroid. Maybe reproductive potential is key in some people's sense of their own sexuality. I haven't read up much on sexuality though but it seems biologically that it would be probable.

 

[Wazzy]

Because believe it or not attractiveness has a lot to do with physical traits just as much as it does personality traits. And those end up stemming into more than just "does this person look like a man" or "was this person born a woman"

Sure. That still has nothing to do with what I was saying. If YOU found them attractive, loved them and wanted to spend the rest of your life with this person, why should finding out they're transgendered change that?

 

[hodgy100]

You're as amusing as the people who complain about being called heterosexual. "I'm not heterosexual, stop categorising me, i'm just normal".

Its less being categorised and more with how the word is used.

 

[Dude Abides]

Sorry, if the spleen isn't feminine that's a deal breaker.

 

[ArchedThunder]

Well, sure. Though a lot of times you can be pretty sure based on certain physical features, etc. So even though somebody might say they are female they might not be attractive to you, just like a straight man isn't interested in all females, and so on.

But beyond that, let's say you find a transwoman attractive, but you are not interested in casual dating, but are looking for long-term relationships that could lead to marriage and having children. Wouldn't the presence of functioning female reproductive organs be a necessity in that situation? It's a bit different from a thyroid. Maybe reproductive potential is key in some people's sense of their own sexuality. I haven't read up much on sexuality though but it seems biologically that it would be probable.

There is always adoption or a surrogate.

Sorry, if the spleen isn't feminine that's a deal breaker.

Nothing sexier than a nice soft spleen.

 

[Pau]

I think for a lot of us it boils down to reproducing. I don't much care what sex a person was born with -- I will treat them the way they present themselves to me as. However, I don't know that I would *date* said person if they are transgendered. Even she was post-op and I could not feel the difference between someone who is transgender vs cis. In the end, I want to have a baby to carry on my legacy.

That's where it stops making a difference for me though. You tell me you're a woman, I will take your word for it and treat you no different than I do any and all women, which is with, y'know, respect.

That's fine. A lot of people don't pursue relationships with cis women or cis men who are unable to reproduce. But it's not exactly an argument you can make for one night stands or relationships in which it isn't the goal to reproduce. Unless you somehow can only find women who are capable of reproducing physically attractive.

 

[Takuan]

Is it for us to decide?

Having said that, personally, I'll refer to them as whatever they identify as, but that's just out of courtesy. It's just hard to see them as the same as a biological male/female when it takes a lifetime of hormone therapy and surgery to even come close to looking the part.

 

[timetokill]

There is always adoption or a surrogate.

Not everyone is interested in those options, though. In fact based on the numbers I'd say most aren't.

 

[Antti]

You're confusing being PC with being polite. When said disclosure can result in violence and outing and other maliciousness it's not something that gets blurted out just because someone bought you dinner.

I don't need to twist your words, your agenda is very clear.

Hmm? Result in violence and other maliciousness? Suuuuure, disclose it later, that'll go over smoothly with a person that would resort to violence and maliciousness upon meeting someone. I didn't necessarily say first date.


These threads are always a shitfest here, because people do their damnedest to get offended.

 

[Hollycat]

There is always adoption or a surrogate.

^

Still not going to hook up with a trans woman because science, but ^^^^.

It always shocks me how many people ignore adoption.

 

[xbhaskarx]

It's a matter of personal preference and I'm just not sexually attracted to Y chromosomes...

 

[Kimawolf]

I'm honestly more interested in discussing how male a cis male is. I have male genital organs and XY chromosomes. What percentage male am I without any further information?

You are male biologically but if you wish to be called a woman that's in your rights to do so is what I say.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

Genders are so fuzzy in the first place, I consider each gender a soft continuum rather than checklists of criteria (and I consider genders to also be part of a sexual identity continuum stretching across multiple psychodimensions).

That is my view though, and I am fully aware of the rest of society having more rigid definitions. I'm fine with that, so long as you are consistent with the application of those definitions, as they would if used on a wider basis presumably be used for quick group identification of individual traits deemed relevant.

That's the thing though, if you define female as encompassing [Insert checklist of criteria] then sure, you might get into a debate on how much of a woman a transwoman in. If you wish to make use of the term "female" to quickly identify females you can procreate with, a desire I could see having use in a group setting (to minimize energy spent on identifying prospective procreative partners), then it makes sense to include biological criteria such as having a womb that is capable of housing a fetus.

On the other hand, you might not use the term female for that purpose, and most likely you don't - it is a term that has organically grown as a result of interpersonal unconscious interactions, and has now certain associations that transwomen consider applicable to them.

 

[moggio]

It's a matter of personal preference and I'm just not sexually attracted to Y chromosomes...

Pwhoar! Look at those sexy chromosomes!

 

[okayfrog]

/thread

Cis people debating over how legitimate or illegitimate trans women are is nauseating. It's not your place to dissect and criticise other people's identities and then make some judgement, it's the height of privilege to do so. These threads just ooze with trans misogyny.

Err, what? Is that the hatred of men who identify as women?

 

[timetokill]

That's fine. A lot of people don't pursue relationships with cis women or cis men who are unable to reproduce. But it's not exactly an argument you can make for one night stands or relationships in which it isn't the goal to reproduce. Unless you somehow can only find women who are capable of reproducing physically attractive.

I guess what I'm asking is, perhaps there is a difference between finding someone physically attractive and finding them sexually attractive.

^

Still not going to hook up with a trans woman because science, but ^^^^.

It always shocks me how many people ignore adoption.

I'm not ignoring it, but for most people it doesn't seem to be an option they would want to consider. It doesn't fulfill the biological desire for many to pass on their genes.

 

[DECK'ARD]

Your view isn't ignorant at all; it's objectively indifferent based on both foundational genetic attributes and ones own psyche.

Although, because I'm an asshole, I do draw the line because it's pretty obvious what sex and gender intent is when you're born - minus a few "abnormalities" in alleles now and again. People are free to do what they want. If you're born with a certain genetic make up, which was obviously intended to compliment another series of genetic elements, and you decide to "switch the game up," then fine whatever. I just think there's something psychologically wrong with you and people are trying too hard with arguments of relativity to justify it.

What.

I don't think trans men and women just decide to go through all that just on a whim to 'switch the game up'.

We are biological, not manufactured exactly to a blueprint. You can have a mismatch between how the brain develops, which I believe is fixed much earlier in the pregnancy, and how the rest of the body develops later on. Changes in hormone levels can affect different things at different times.

Correcting the mismatch between the gender someone identifies with, which comes from the brain, and how they are physically isn't switching the game up merely correcting something they consider wrong.

 

[George Oscar Bluth II]

Pwhoar! Look at those sexy chromosomes!

 

[Deified Data]

Nothing sexier than a nice soft spleen.

We're all nice and soft on the inside.

 

[Susurrus]

There's no women on the internet. Case closed.

 

[TUROK]

Well if your gender identity was female, i highly doubt your female self would WANT a beard. So, that would make it difficult from a believably standpoint to have others identify you as female.

That's presumptous bordering on offensive. What, someone who identifies as female can't want a beard?