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[RustyNails]

It's actually not yet clear what happened to Jeb, but it's clear he's in trouble. Jeb's candidacy relied on "inevitability" -- which is to say, it assumed he'd be able to lock down enough party insiders early enough that he could start as the default candidate and snowball from there.

As far as I know, there aren't any leaks yet on why that didn't work, but for whatever reason, it's obvious he wasn't able to do that. And, unfortunately for him, it works both ways -- if Jeb can't actually command party insiders and raise more money, have a better organization, etc., then what good is he? He's not exactly a standout conservative, and he comes with a big handicap in the form of his last name.

After the Mittens, I highly doubt they're gonna back another seemingly moderate candidate who is very clearly ok on immigration. What did their 2012 autopsy results tell them? That they better adopt immigration reform as a policy otherwise risk losing a significant chunk of voting base. And that's exactly what they wont do.

Real question is where the hell is Chris Christie and his political game? Weren't they screaming out his name during the early 2012 season?

 

[Teggy]

Forget Jindal becoming President because that isnt happening but how screwed are we if Jindal becomes Health and Human Services Secretary under a Hypothetical Republican Administration?

If the Republicans win the White House it would probably be along with both chambers of congress, and Bobby Jindal would be the least of your worries.

 

[RadioHammer500]

so do you guys think Obama goes down as a top 3 president of all time in terms of legacy? when he finally leaves office

based on his accomplishments

 

[NYCmetsfan]

so do you guys think Obama goes down as a top 3 president of all time in terms of legacy? when he finally leaves office

based on his accomplishments

No

There are 10 that have a better legacy

FDR
Lincoln
Teddy
LBJ
Washington
Grant
Wilson
Jefferson
Truman
Adams

All have much greater legacies

 

[sharbhund]

No

There are 10 that have a better legacy

FDR
Lincoln
Teddy
LBJ
Washington
Grant
Wilson
Jefferson
Truman
Adams

All have much greater legacies

Isn't Grant considered one of the worst Presidents ever?

 

[Aaron Strife]

so do you guys think Obama goes down as a top 3 president of all time in terms of legacy? when he finally leaves office

based on his accomplishments

Top 1

 

[B-Dubs]

Isn't Grant considered one of the worst Presidents ever?

He was drunk most of that time so it's hard to tell.

 

[Abinash117]

What could Obama do to get him up there? He did some pretty decent stuff that will have some impact, assuming everything goes well, I can see him being perceived as a good president in the future.

 

[thepotatoman]

No

There are 10 that have a better legacy

FDR
Lincoln
Teddy
LBJ
Washington
Grant
Wilson
Jefferson
Truman
Adams

All have much greater legacies

So then best president since LBJ maybe?

 

[sc0la]

Top 1

He is definitely the best sitting president we currently have. This is indisputable.

 

[B-Dubs]

What could Obama do to get him up there? He did some pretty decent stuff that will have some impact, assuming everything goes well, I can see him being perceived as a good president in the future.

The ACA alone is a huge accomplishment, anything else is gravy.

 

[Ecotic]

What could Obama do to get him up there? He did some pretty decent stuff that will have some impact, assuming everything goes well, I can see him being perceived as a good president in the future.

Not have lost the House in 2010. If he'd have had a Democratic Congress until 2014 he could've gone down as one of the greats. I still can't believe the American public got so impatient after only 18 months. Or maybe they just got cold feet. They voted for change in 2008, they were getting change, and got scared.

 

[Chichikov]

so do you guys think Obama goes down as a top 3 president of all time in terms of legacy? when he finally leaves office

based on his accomplishments

No, it's not even close.
He is however number one in killing the most American citizens without trial with a drone strike.

 

[B-Dubs]

Not have lost the House in 2010. If he'd have had a Democratic Congress until 2014 he could've gone down as one of the greats. I still can't believe the American public got so impatient after only 18 months. Or maybe they just got cold feet. They voted for change in 2008, they were getting change, and got scared.

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, that's as true in politics as it is in physics. The House was always going to swing, it was just a matter of when. Going as big early on as he did made it inevitable that the opposite push would come faster. The tea party was the reaction to Obama and the Warren wing of the Dems rising up was equilibrium reasserting itself.

On a similar note, my mother, who is generally very centrist, would seem to prefer Warren to literally everyone else running. This took me a bit by surprise but apparently seeing Warren speak a few times on TV made my mother a huge fan. She was pretty upset when I told her Warren probably wouldn't make a run. Part of me thinks Warren might be a bit more popular than we, or the pundits, give her credit for.

 

[Chichikov]

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, that's as true in politics as it is in physics. The House was always going to swing, it was just a matter of when. Going as big early on as he did made it inevitable that the opposite push would come faster. The tea party was the reaction to Obama and the Warren wing of the Dems rising up was equilibrium reasserting itself.

On a similar note, my mother, who is generally very centrist, would seem to prefer Warren to literally everyone else running. This took me a bit by surprise but apparently seeing Warren speak a few times on TV made my mother a huge fan. She was pretty upset when I told her Warren probably wouldn't make a run. Part of me thinks Warren might be a bit more popular than we, or the pundits, give her credit for.

The tea party is a reaction to the GOP getting their ass handed to them in '08.
That shit started before any major move was done by the Obama administration or the Democratic congress.

Also, Warren's positions with regards to Wall Street are pretty much in tune with the majority of the public's opinions on the issue.

2010 was more about turnout and lack of enthusiasm in the Democratic base than people getting disappointed at Obama and straight up switching political affiliation.

 

[Aaron Strife]

What could Obama do to get him up there? He did some pretty decent stuff that will have some impact, assuming everything goes well, I can see him being perceived as a good president in the future.

Make it legal, baby

Everyone will be too chill to hate him.

 

[RadioHammer500]

So then best president since LBJ maybe?

Washington a greater legacy then Obama?..ehh i dont know.,, i mean just being the first president doesn't really, at least too me, prove anything

what did Teddy do again?

 

[Chichikov]

Washington a greater legacy then Obama?..ehh i dont know.,, i mean just being the first president doesn't really, at least too me, prove anything

what did Teddy do again?

wat.gif

Washington is directly and personally responsible to the idea of civilian supremacy winning out and Teddy is the biggest trust buster in US's history and probably the most important figure in the conservation movement worldwide.

Make it legal, baby

Everyone will be too chill to hate him.

It will never happen, but I honestly don't see a downside for doing this.
And if you talk legacy, he do that, and every strain forever and ever will be named after him (unlike now, when only 30-40% are).

 

[RadioHammer500]

wat.gif

Washington is directly and personally responsible to the idea of civilian supremacy winning out and Teddy is the biggest trust buster in US's history and probably the most important figure in the conservation movement worldwide.


It will never happen, but I honestly don't see a downside for doing this.
And if you talk legacy, he do that, and every strain forever and ever will be named after him (unlike now, when only 30-40% are).

would you say Teddy has more accomplishments in office then Barack?

 

[Chichikov]

would you say Teddy has more accomplishments in office then Barack?

Of course, it's not even close.
You want more?
I got more!

The Panama canal, national parks, laying the base for consumer protection by the government.

 

[RadioHammer500]

Of course, it's not even close.
You want more?
I got more!

The Panama canal, national parks, laying the base for consumer protection by the government.

it's just......Teddy never seemed like the intellectual Obama is...he always seemed like the rough and tough type personality, but never an intellectual..

 

[thepotatoman]

It does feel a little weird to talk about Obama's legacy while the probably worse than NAFTA TPP is near passing.

Cuba and Iran stuff could still die, and Net Neutrality and ACA could still get killed by the courts.

What would that leave him with? Happening to be president while states and courts legalized marijuana and same sex marriage?

 

[Chichikov]

it's just......Teddy never seemed like the intellectual Obama is...he always seemed like the rough and tough type personality, but never an intellectual..

He definitely was less bookish than Obama, but he wasn't stupid by any measure.
In any case, we're talking about legacy here, Teddy made fundamental lasting changes in the US, its economy and the roll the government play, he started projects whose impact are still felt globally a century later.
Barry can't come close to him.

 

[RadioHammer500]

He definitely was less bookish than Obama, but he wasn't stupid by any measure.
In any case, we're talking about legacy here, Teddy made fundamental lasting changes in the US, its economy and the roll the government play, he started projects whose impact are still felt globally a century later.
Barry can't come close to him.

ok i will agree with you there in terms of legacy, yeah Teddy did alot more than Barack

Washington too...

can we at least say in terms of Intellect, Barack might be the smartest president ever?

 

[Chichikov]

ok i will agree with you there in terms of legacy, yeah Teddy did alot more than Barack

Washington too...

can we at least say in terms of Intellect, Barack might be the smartest president ever?

I don't really accept the idea that you can measure intellect with a single measure, but if you go by what people usually think of as smart, then Herbert Hoover probably win that category.
He was also a terrible president.

 

[RadioHammer500]

I don't really accept the idea that you can measure intellect with a single measure, but if you go by what people usually think of as smart, then Herbert Hoover probably win that category.
He was also a terrible president.

so there wouldn't really be a strong correlation out there that intelligence= the ability to be a good president...

 

[Chichikov]

so there wouldn't really be a strong correlation out there that intelligence= the ability to be a good president...

I think being stupid hurts, but what we generally categorize as being smart does not necessarily correlate really well with being an effective president.
Like, LBJ is not what you would call an intellectual, but he's probably the greatest legislator in the history of the US.

 

[Jackson50]

wat.gif

Washington is directly and personally responsible to the idea of civilian supremacy winning out and Teddy is the biggest trust buster in US's history and probably the most important figure in the conservation movement worldwide.

Washington also firmly established the authority of the federal government at a time when many openly challenged it. He implemented the cabinet system for the executive branch. And although Alexander Hamilton was the architect behind many of Washington's policies, it was Washington's clout that permitted their passage. That includes the assumption plan, the establishment of a national bank, and the creation of the revenue cutters.

 

[Chichikov]

Washington also firmly established the authority of the federal government at a time when many openly challenged it. He implemented the cabinet system for the executive branch. And although Alexander Hamilton was the architect behind many of Washington's policies, it was Washington's clout that permitted their passage. That includes the assumption plan, the establishment of a national bank, and the creation of the revenue cutters.

All good points.
Also, stepping down as a president, Americans accept peaceful transition of power as this normal thing, but if you look at the world's history, until the American revolution and even after it, this is hardly the case.

 

[CrimzonSamurai]

ok i will agree with you there in terms of legacy, yeah Teddy did alot more than Barack

Washington too...

can we at least say in terms of Intellect, Barack might be the smartest president ever?

I don't really accept the idea that you can measure intellect with a single measure, but if you go by what people usually think of as smart, then Herbert Hoover probably win that category.
He was also a terrible president.

Jefferson isn't being included anywhere? I think with the ability to gain new information that existed in the 18th century, Jefferson has to be the most learned. I know he's got this whole mythical thing with his intellect, but he was a farmer, architect, statesman, accomplished writer, multilingual, philosopher, etc. I mean, obviously Hoover and Obama have much more solid ground since they were born in more scientifically advanced time, but I think if you put them within their historical contexts, Jefferson at least has to be a contender.

 

[Chichikov]

Jefferson isn't being included anywhere? I think with the ability to gain new information that existed in the 18th century, Jefferson has to be the most learned. I know he's got this whole mythical thing with his intellect, but he was a farmer, architect, statesman, accomplished writer, multilingual, philosopher, etc. I mean, obviously Hoover and Obama have much more solid ground since they were born in more scientifically advanced time, but I think if you put them within their historical contexts, Jefferson at least has to be a contender.

You are right, he should absolutely be in the conversation.

 

[CrimzonSamurai]

You are right, he should absolutely be in the conversation.

Can't tell if sarcasm, haha. Swivel chairs rule!

I'm just enamored with the JFK quote "Gentleman, we have assembled here some of the finest minds in the world, surely the greatest gathering of intellect in the history of the White House. Except, perhaps when Thomas Jefferson dined alone."

Paraphrased a bit.

 

[Chichikov]

Can't tell if sarcasm, haha. Swivel chairs rule!

I'm just enamored with the JFK quote "Gentleman, we have assembled here some of the finest minds in the world, surely the greatest gathering of intellect in the history of the White House. Except, perhaps when Thomas Jefferson dined alone."

Paraphrased a bit.

That was absolutely not sarcasm.

And yeah, swivel chairs fucking rule, and the fact that Jefferson invented it is one of my favorite factoids.
I always imagined Jefferson trying to write declaration of independence, uneasily shifting in his non-swiveling chair before standing up and shouting "this will not do, to bring freedom to the people, I must first create... A FREEDOM CHAIR!".

 

[NYCmetsfan]

That was absolutely not sarcasm.

And yeah, swivel chairs fucking rule, and the fact that Jefferson invented it is one of my favorite factoids.
I always imagined Jefferson trying to write declaration of independence, uneasily shifting in his non-swiveling chair before standing up and shouting "this will not do, to bring freedom to the people, I must first create... A FREEDOM CHAIR!".

His inventions are awesome and are precursors to a lot of things computers do now. Didn't he invent a kind of autopen to. Pretty much a 18th century copier

I thought you were joking tying it to the declaration but it really was invented around that time and he wrote it in one. I can imagine him finishing it up and doing a loop out of joy for having finshed it

 

[Jackson50]

All good points.
Also, stepping down as a president, Americans accept peaceful transition of power as this normal thing, but if you look at the world's history, until the American revolution and even after it, this is hardly the case.

True. Peaceful, orderly transitions were rare. And although you can cite the Constitution as the blueprint for succession, a great constitution is hardly a guarantee. The actual practice has to be established by political actors. And even then they often leave institutional legacies that retain their influence. But Washington handled it perfectly. It's remarkable how many of the customs and practices we take for granted can be traced to Washington.

Jefferson isn't being included anywhere? I think with the ability to gain new information that existed in the 18th century, Jefferson has to be the most learned. I know he's got this whole mythical thing with his intellect, but he was a farmer, architect, statesman, accomplished writer, multilingual, philosopher, etc. I mean, obviously Hoover and Obama have much more solid ground since they were born in more scientifically advanced time, but I think if you put them within their historical contexts, Jefferson at least has to be a contender.

Jefferson was undoubtedly intelligent and knowledgeable. If you wanted to label him the smartest president we've had, I would not object. I would put him with Madison, Wilson, and Reagan.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

True. Peaceful, orderly transitions were rare. And although you can cite the Constitution as the blueprint for succession, a great constitution is hardly a guarantee. The actual practice has to be established by political actors. And even then they often leave institutional legacies that retain their influence. But Washington handled it perfectly. It's remarkable how many of the customs and practices we take for granted can be traced to Washington.Jefferson was undoubtedly intelligent and knowledgeable. If you wanted to label him the smartest president we've had, I would not object. I would put him with Madison, Wilson, and Reagan.

Wha?

Is there something I don't know about Reagan?

 

[Chichikov]

His inventions are awesome and are precursors to a lot of things computers do now. Didn't he invent a kind of autopen to. Pretty much a 18th century copier

I thought you were joking tying it to the declaration but it really was invented around that time and he wrote it in one. I can imagine him finishing it up and doing a loop out of joy for having finshed it

That chair still exists, you can see it in Phili.
They claim Jefferson wrote the declaration of independence on it, but as far as I know, this is not a verifiable historical fact, but to paraphrase one of the my favorite movies - This is the America, sir. When the legend becomes fact, post the legend.

 

[pigeon]

so there wouldn't really be a strong correlation out there that intelligence= the ability to be a good president...

Real talk: most of what you do as president, especially in the modern day, is get a really good staff and manage them.

No one human being could possibly make all the decisions that the president is "responsible" for every day without destroying the world and going insane. They rely on their cabinet and their staff to determine appropriate courses of action and put them into action.

When we criticize presidents for being bad at specific things, generally what we're actually criticizing is their ability to get good staff in that particular area, or their ability to resist the pressure of interest groups attempting to sway them and their staff. For example, we think of most modern presidents as unnecessary warmongers -- but if there's a thread of unnecessary military action that runs through several administrations, the right place to look is the Department of Defense, which is responsible for providing military advice and staff to the president.

So being smart is important in the sense that you need to be smart enough to be a good manager of people. But Steve Jobs, for example, was very smart, but would be a horrible president, because he was famous for micromanagement and not leaving his staff well enough alone.

 

[Fenderputty]

It does feel a little weird to talk about Obama's legacy while the probably worse than NAFTA TPP is near passing.

Cuba and Iran stuff could still die, and Net Neutrality and ACA could still get killed by the courts.

What would that leave him with? Happening to be president while states and courts legalized marijuana and same sex marriage?

I thought this as well. Makes no sense if he's in no fucks given mode trying to cement his legacy.

 

[RadioHammer500]

Jefferson was brilliant, undoubtedly, i would see no problem with calling him the most intelligent president


i just wish he was able to see past slavery and abolish it.....for all his intelligence, i wish he was able to see the immorality of slavery..

 

[AndyD]

It does feel a little weird to talk about Obama's legacy while the probably worse than NAFTA TPP is near passing.

Cuba and Iran stuff could still die, and Net Neutrality and ACA could still get killed by the courts.

What would that leave him with? Happening to be president while states and courts legalized marijuana and same sex marriage?

Yep. Although in 10-20 years we should have a better idea. If ACA stands and expands to a public option, if Net Neutrality stands and expands to an internet utility revolution, if mj is legalized and war on drugs takes an enormous downturn, then his legacy would be solid.

 

[Wilsongt]

GOP candidates are sitting out the White House correspondents dinner again this year. Not surprising.

You'd think they'd attend, seeing as how it would be their only chance to actually see the White House until well into the 2020s.

 

[CrimzonSamurai]

His inventions are awesome and are precursors to a lot of things computers do now. Didn't he invent a kind of autopen to. Pretty much a 18th century copier

I thought you were joking tying it to the declaration but it really was invented around that time and he wrote it in one. I can imagine him finishing it up and doing a loop out of joy for having finshed it

IIRC he was actually pretty reluctant to write it. He didn't think he had the necessary experience. I think Hancock? Someone from New York, anyway. Basically coerced him into it since he was the youngest and idealistic member present at the Continental Congress. I might be getting that confused with a story from the Constitutional Convention, though.

 

[thefro]

IIRC he was actually pretty reluctant to write it. He didn't think he had the necessary experience. I think Hancock? Someone from New York, anyway. Basically coerced him into it since he was the youngest and idealistic member present at the Continental Congress. I might be getting that confused with a story from the Constitutional Convention, though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committee_of_Five

 

[NYCmetsfan]

IIRC he was actually pretty reluctant to write it. He didn't think he had the necessary experience. I think Hancock? Someone from New York, anyway. Basically coerced him into it since he was the youngest and idealistic member present at the Continental Congress. I might be getting that confused with a story from the Constitutional Convention, though.

Wasn't he thought of as the best "writer" who could best write a formal document but also have great propaganda function

 

[NYCmetsfan]

Jefferson was brilliant, undoubtedly, i would see no problem with calling him the most intelligent president


i just wish he was able to see past slavery and abolish it.....for all his intelligence, i wish he was able to see the immorality of slavery..

Intelligence seems to have no correlation with morality. Its bizarre.

Empathy (which I think is the moral underpinning for good deeds) is a completely different kind of intelligence.

 

[CrimzonSamurai]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committee_of_Five

Wasn't he thought of as the best "writer" who could best write a formal document but also have great propaganda function

I think I'm confusing it with whoever the Committee of Detail got to write the final draft of the Constitution for signing at the Convention. I can't find who wrote it with a cursory google, I'll have to wait until I get home and open my copy of Plain, Honest Men.

Which you all should read, by the way, if you haven't. An amazing and engaging account of the Constitutional Convention without all the divine intervention and manifest destiny fluff that's in Miracle in Philadelphia.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0812976843/?tag=neogaf0e-20

 

[NeoXChaos]

GOP candidates are sitting out the White House correspondents dinner again this year. Not surprising.

You'd think they'd attend, seeing as how it would be their only chance to actually see the White House until well into the 2020s.

That Confidence. Lets hope it doesn't shatter come January 2017.

 

[ivysaur12]

Manchin up big in hypothetical gubernatorial poll. I can't see him losing if he's up for reelection. And we need that seat.

Too bad about bae Carte Goodwin.

 

[NeoXChaos]

Manchin up big in hypothetical gubernatorial poll. I can't see him losing if he's up for reelection. And we need that seat.

Too bad about bae Carte Goodwin.

never say never. Mark Udall looked safe in April 2013 and look what happened to him. The fate of the Romney 5(MO, IN, MT, WV, ND) and the Swing State 5(PA, OH, FL, WI, VA) is going to heavily ride on who is President in 2018 and the environment at the time.

As Chris Matthews warned: if Hillary become President with a Republican Congress, they will do to her what they did to Obama. Prevent her from having any accomplishments. To him, the BEST outcome is a Democratic House and Senate elected next year.