Support NeoGAF

[PSqueak]

I wanna open this statement by saying that at this point they prolly should abolish gendered tiers in such school activities and the trans teen's gender identity is valid and should be respected.

That said, 5th and 3rd place? and people are mad?, even in the stupid mindset of this people that "she doesn't count as a real girl" (again, i want to stress, i DO NOT share this mindset), why get mad if she was beat by a bunch of so called "real girls"?

Sounds like these parents just are salty about their daughters losing and just want to blame the girl who ran a perfectly legitimate, clean run. If your daughters lost to her you can't blame it on her being transgender, because then, how come another 6 girls defeated her?

I would pay to see an NFL player play against a woman, I'm sure everything would go just fine.

Now lets be fair here, American Football should not be player by any gender at all.

Rugby, on the other hand, would work better. Then again, the female division is already as violent and ruthless as the male one, so not much would change.

 

[Quonny]

People should watch the 30 for 30: Renée. It's about Renée Richards, a transgender tennis player who started winning women's tournaments.

 

[ApharmdX]

No. You cannot reverse those innate changes completely.

Yeah, that's why I'm against this. Athletics are about a level playing field. The only other alternative would be opening up all sports to both men and women, which would be a disaster.

 

[Ordinaryundone]

The male/female sports distinction ought to be dissolved anyway.

Ok, I'll bite. What would that solve?

 

[Gotdatmoney]

Wasn't a problem for the 1st and 2nd placers.

You ever race in a conpetition where 1st, 2nd and 3rd advance to next round?

I dont really know the solution to this is besides just letting it go because it really isnt a big deal.

 

[foxuzamaki]

I know men on average are physically stronger than women but does that necessarily translate to being faster?

 

[Orbis Tabula]

I know I'm almost certainly missing the forest for the trees, but I'd have an easier time getting worked up if the student in question hadn't come in third place. If she were crushing everyone I'd get the concern, but not so much here.

 

[braves01]

It would negatively cis-female athletic participation if trans female people took over sports due to an inherent prior gender based edge.

 

[Skellig Gra]

The male/female sports distinction ought to be dissolved anyway.

That would result in females being cut out of all sports. I doubt thats what you are going for.

 

[LordOfChaos]

What I've heard from m-f trans people on hormones is that after just weeks or months on them, stuff very quickly gets *heavy*, as in the strength stat boost from maleness is gone or diluted.

I'd be interested in if they're still stronger on average than a born female female. Maybe some structural benefits remain after muscle mass is reduced.

Anyways, piss off, girls mothers.

 

[entremet]

wrong thread.

 

[Kusagari]

I mean the fact the student didn't win kind of destroys the point I would think.

 

[kswiston]

I mean men are physically stronger than women (I believe?)

The distributions obviously overlap, but men tend to be stronger and faster than women, yes. At the highest levels of competition, women wouldnt be competitive in most olympic events if you got rid of the gender split.

I have no idea how M2F hormone treatments factor into things though, especially if administered during adolescence.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

In the long run, at least for elite level sports, we might have to have separate leagues for transgendered athletes. That would probably be the best solution

For lower levels, where it's not really very competitive, any advantages for trans women wouldn't really matter though

 

[Hazmat]

The male/female sports distinction ought to be dissolved anyway.

Wouldn't this result in some events being completely dominated by one gender or the other? I mean, the best female weightlifter would crush any normal man, but can she compete with male weightlifters at the Olympic level?

 

[Justified]

Good points, but transgendring do not always involve hormone treatment.

Its easy to not see "an issue" in this case, but overall it can be within the current setup of Sports.

As point out the Olympic way may be the closest way to solve it, by testing testosterone, but is that feasible at a grade school level?

 

[Trojita]

The potential advantage is there.

But

and parents with the Alaska Family Council

These people are a hate group and only involved because they hate LBGTQ.

 

[jacob armitage]

This is tricky but there are a lot of other genetic advantages that some people may have, not taking into account gender. Do the students feel upset over this, or is just some vocal parents?

 

[Eumi]

I know men on average are physically stronger than women but does that necessarily translate to being faster?

Yes.

 

[Alienous]

Ok, I'll bite. What would that solve?

This issue. The best of the best athletes compete against eachother. No more putting all women in the second-class of sporting because of their gender.

 

[Zoe]

I know I'm almost certainly missing the forest for the trees, but I'd have an easier time getting worked up if the student in question hadn't come in third place. If she were crushing everyone I'd get the concern, but not so much here.

3rd place is the difference between advancing to the next round and going home empty-handed.

 

[Kurdel]

Gender dysphoria is so rare that this is a non issue.

If you want to avoid certain people winning due to an unwanted genetic advantage, put height or weight rules in place.

 

[Jharp]

I don't see why this is a hard issue to consider for even the most pro-trans folk. Are we simply afraid of admitting that men and women are born with biological and physiological differences? Look at Fallon Fox. Should a trans woman born with the frame, muscle structure, and bone structure of a man be allowed to fight women? For fucking serious?!

It's possible to be as pro trans as you want without budging on this one. Athletic competition is segregated because there are physical differences between the sexes, that we're innately born with.

 

[Clockwork5]

The male/female sports distinction ought to be dissolved anyway.

Why do you say that?

 

[DrBo42]

Seems like they would need to compete with the gender they transitioned from. I'd imagine hormones can only do so much. I'd definitely be bummed if I transitioned and had to compete with a gender I no longer identify as anymore though. No great solution I can see.

 

[perfectchaos007]

This issue. The best of the best athletes compete against eachother. No more putting all women in the second-class of sporting because of their gender.

I'm sure MRA's agree with you

 

[entremet]

This issue. The best of the best athletes compete against eachother. No more putting all women in the second-class of sporting because of their gender.

You'd kill women's sports outside of ultra endurance running, where women show less gaps in performance.

 

[McBryBry]

Futurama was way ahead on this one.

ALL HAIL ROBONIAAAAAAAAAA

THE LAND I DIDNT MAKE UUUUUUUUUUP

OT; there's not much I can really add that isn't already said. Super difficult situation. I hate to tell a transgender person they can't do what they want to do, but the physical differences in the male and female body don't go away. Is unfair to others in the sport.

 

[Basileus777]

This issue. The best of the best athletes compete against eachother. No more putting all women in the second-class of sporting because of their gender.

You'd just get men competing and women excluded in the vast majority of sports.

 

[Zornack]

This simply comes down to raw science. Once trans acceptance gas gotten more prevalent we need comprehensive studies on a transitioned individual's strength, stamina, etc. versus other people of that gender. If there is a clear advantage then they can not be allowed to compete. If there is no clear advantage then we have to find how long into transitioning that advantage disappears and allow them to compete past then.

I believe some of this research has already been done and found that there is no advantage, but I'm not certain.

 

[norm9]

Gender dysphoria is so rare that this is a non issue.

If you want to avoid certain people winning due to an unwanted genetic advantage, put height or weight rules in place.

Or sticking with the binary system that is in place.

I don't see why this is a hard issue to consider for even the most pro-trans folk. Are we simply afraid of admitting that men and women are born with biological and physiological differences? Look at Fallon Fox. Should a trans woman born with the frame, muscle structure, and bone structure of a man be allowed to fight women? For fucking serious?!

It's possible to be as pro trans as you want without budging on this one. Athletic competition is segregated because there are physical differences between the sexes, that we're innately born with.

I agree. There's a lot of hemming and hawing about both sides and it feels from my point of view that it's coming from a fear of seeming like a bigot.

 

[Giolon]

This issue. The best of the best athletes compete against eachother. No more putting all women in the second-class of sporting because of their gender.

Even if that means fewer women participating, winning, and/or receiving scholarships and publicity due to inherent disadvantages?

 

[ApharmdX]

The Fallon Fox thing was a little bit more egregious. She concussed her last opponent and broke her eye socket, I think. That's a really hard sell to me, why she should be competing in women's MMA.

The male/female sports distinction ought to be dissolved anyway.

Perhaps. You could make an argument for this but it would kill most women's sports.

 

[ShOcKwAvE]

Bathroom-equality advocates want people to use whatever bathroom they feel more comfortable in, but I'd be interested in knowing whether they want athletes to compete against their preferred gender as well. I'd be for that but it raises so many challenges. If a female athlete transitioned to being a male, he would likely have a really tough time competing with other "original" males, so I don't see how he'd be comfortable with it. Isn't testosterone part of the transition process? How would that affect drug-testing policies?

Edit - OK bunch of posts since I started writing this, so someone may have answered already.

 

[mrklaw]

I wanna open this statement by saying that at this point they prolly should abolish gendered tiers in such school activities and the trans teen's gender identity is valid and should be respected.

That said, 5th and 3rd place? and people are mad?, even in the stupid mindset of this people that "she doesn't count as a real girl" (again, i want to stress, i DO NOT share this mindset), why get mad if she was beat by a bunch of so called "real girls"?

Sounds like these parents just are salty about their daughters losing and just want to blame the girl who ran a perfectly legitimate, clean run. If your daughters lost to her you can't blame it on her being transgender, because then, how come another 6 girls defeated her?



Now lets be fair here, American Football should not be player by any gender at all.

Rugby, on the other hand, would work better. Then again, the female division is already as violent and ruthless as the male one, so not much would change.

So this transgender girl wasn't amazing enough to beat everyone, but that doesn't touch on the broader point - generally speaking would a transgender male->female be at an unfair physical advantage in some sports?

 

[IdreamofHIME]

She had such an advantage that she lost.

 

[God Dayumm]

I'm sure MRA's agree with you

The horror. A broken clock is right twice a day

 

[Poltergust]

It would negatively cis-female athletic participation if trans female people took over sports due to an inherent prior gender based edge.

There's not enough sports-minded male-to-female transgender people for that to happen.

 

[Yaboosh]

I was a mediocre summer league swimmer.

If I had my times in the 50yd free (short course) as a woman, I would get a scholarship to any school in the country.

There are large differences between men and women in sports. If hormone treatments are proven to eliminate those advantages, then great. No problems. But that seems super hard to prove on an individual level and intrusive as well.

 

[Trojita]

The male/female sports distinction ought to be dissolved anyway.

Holy Baikal Logic.

 

[j-wood]

To everyone saying genetics play a role in how good you are at a sport, you are correct.

However, genetics isn't involved in this conversation really in that sense. This is essentially men (transitioned to a woman) playing against women who have not transitioned or vice versa.

As others have stated, hormone therapy does diminish things, but it doesn't completely wipe out biological differences between men and women.

 

[The Faceless Master]

sooooooo...

it's not fair but she was seeded 3rd and came in 3rd?

 

[GreatestHits]

You can't pretend there is no difference between a woman born as male and a woman born as female when we apply a scientific mindset to the situation which sports does naturally. There are big physical differences in them, and historically we separate those with physical differences in sports (welter-weights, heavy-weights)

The problem here is that this natural method of segregation directly contends with the miracle of self identity which allows one to permeate boundaries and defy limitations. However when it comes to sport, we are simply keeping a physically level playing field, so I think there should be new categories for trans people

 

[Shamrock7r]

This issue. The best of the best athletes compete against eachother. No more putting all women in the second-class of sporting because of their gender.

As others have said, you wouldn't even have what you refer to as "second-class" of sporting (which I disagree). You would simply have less women in sports, period.

 

[Toxi]

Yeah, that's why I'm against this. Athletics are about a level playing field.

Except they aren't. There's a reason there aren't many 5'6'' male basketball players.

To everyone saying genetics play a role in how good you are at a sport, you are correct.

However, genetics isn't involved in this conversation really in that sense. This is essentially men (transitioned to a woman) playing against women who have not transitioned or vice versa.

As others have stated, hormone therapy does diminish things, but it doesn't completely wipe out biological differences between men and women.

I do recognize it's an issue, I just think the biological advantage argument needs to recognize there is already an element of that in sports.

 

[mreddie]

ADVANTAGE?

She won a bronze! Is a Bronze that scared to you?

 

[Ayato Kanzaki]

Disclaimer: Im indifferent when it comes to transgendering. I think everyone should be treated with respect and accepted regardless




http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jun/6/nattaphon-wangyot-transgender-student-riles-critic/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9vpRIqRXM0

Comments GAF. This does make me think of that argument between Evilore, and HolyBaikal that got her banned.

If Men are indeed generally physiologically stronger than females; how can this inevitable competing be resolved? Does DNA or Identity take precedent in Sports?

How about, we just drop all physical competitions, and compete only with activities where strength or size isn't a factor, and remote controlled drones?

It would also solve most doping issues.

 

[Ralemont]

This issue. The best of the best athletes compete against eachother. No more putting all women in the second-class of sporting because of their gender.

So let's take basketball. Your idea is implemented. The best of the best means that every roster is filled with all men. Women either find another profession, or someone starts a women's league so they can at least compete and maybe make a career out of it. We're back to where we started.

 

[Crimson_Fate]

The way you fix this is to get rid of all gender specific sports. Let everyone compete as equals and whoever wins, wins.

 

[God Dayumm]

I was a mediocre summer league swimmer.

If I had my times in the 50yd free (short course) as a woman, I would get a scholarship to any school in the country.

There are large differences between men and women in sports. If hormone treatments are proven to eliminate those advantages, then great. No problems. But that seems super hard to prove on an individual level and intrusive as well.

Yes men are better at sports. But these are not men, these are women born with the genetic advantage of having male features, why should they be excluded from the sport?