So a transgender student not even on hormones could participate in the girls sports for scholarships? Now that's really unfair.
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Transgender Teen (Male to Female) Wins 3rd Place in Race;Girls' Mothers Mad
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So a transgender student not even on hormones could participate in the girls sports for scholarships? Now that's really unfair.
Unless she had some sort of miraculous chromosome transmutation, this is factually false.
She's absolutely a girl. But she has the XY chromosomes of a man which makes her sex identification male. This has nothing to do with civil rights. We're strictly talking about the scientific definition of the term.
Octavianus
Banned
GameAddict411
Member
Men are naturally stronger than women when it comes to physical strength. Depending on when the hormonal therapy started, it might be unfair for the transgender student to compete with the other female students. If the hormonal therapy started from young age, then I don't think it's an issue. But I might be wrong. It's definitely a grey area and the right thing to do is not very clear.
SEX is purely based on chromosomes, if you have a Y you are a Male (Sex wise) unless you have XXY
"That chatty, bitchy, flop-wristed athlete is certainly a girl!"
Come the fuck on, smh. The "dress" thing gets a pass if there are uniforms and they require boys to wear jackets and girls skirts, but even that's stupid.
edit: I'm reminded of that woman who was attacked for using the woman's restroom because someone was confused by her short hair -that she shaved because she donates hair to cancer patients. We don't need outside council making "judgement calls" based on how people "look" and "act."
LizardKing
Member
If they were segregated by sex then she would be running with XY. She's running with XX. But that's really more because the system hasn't wrestled with the questions of transgender and differences of sex/gender.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
You can't just change the definition of a term to win an internet argument.
For some it might be unclear, but for myself it's really quite clear. Her biological sex is male so she can't compete against biological females.
chromosomes are a myth?
UnemployedVillain
Member
Not really...Sex and gender are different because there is that difference in distinction. A transgender, by definition, has a sex that doesn't match their gender. You can't change a chromosome into a different one
If not any of those, how would you quantify gender?
EDIT:
And I very much doubt the meaning behind the statement has any relation to the statement you posted there.
Yea thats the blurred line I would say, outside of hormonal level, how do you definitively quantify it
How the person in question identifies. There was a time where women couldn't wear pants, or go outside without makeup on. They aren't acting "manly" when they do that.
Beerman462
Member
You condesending tone is doing you no favors. Stop acting like your shitty examples are to hard to grasp when the only one that seems to get it is the guy posting. It usually means your usuing poor examples or terrible logic. Even in your hypothetical B. Scenario there will be women that train and compete from birth I would venture to say that the best women golfer in the world has probably trained from a very young age. Even still she is at a disadvantage among other professionals.
I don't feel like going down this path any more. I think you've got some good ideas and we probably agree on more points than not. I will just say I don't think you give modern women athetes enough credit when you say their potential is hinderd because they didn't get enough encouragement. Sometimes someone telling you will fail is a fuel for sucess.
cpp_is_king
Member
I'm sorry but it's exactly how it DOESN'T work.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_sex-determination_system
If you have XY chromosomes, your sex is male. If you have XX chromosomes, your sex is male. sex is a biological trait.
I'm ridiculing the notion that this is an issue. Some people are already genetically superior in sports so why make a big deal out of a transgender person having a genetic advantage?
Butterfly Witch
Member
It's nowhere near that simple. What about intersex people? What about cisgender women who are born XY, have kids, live their lives and never find out?
Chromosomes are not as cut and dry as most people seem to believe.
Chromosomes aren't the hard-and-fast rule you think they are.
And, not gonna lie, seeing all this gender essentialism bullshit on GAF is really discouraging. I'd really rather not deal with that.
Zoe
Member
You're conveniently overlooking the "declaration" part that comes before all of that.
cpp_is_king
Member
What part of them is not cut and dry? They're in your body, whether you know it or not.
WaterAstro
Member
I dunno... mythical country sounds like North America and some European countries.
I think females are encouraged to play sports a lot in these times.
If you are implying that a person's gender is an attribute decided entirely by what they claim to be, then it becomes little more than a meaningless title. Under those specifications saying "I identify as the president" is a valid statement that ought to give a person all the benefits and responsibilities of the president lol. Having a definition not based on (EDIT: Or at least in relation to) society's definitions of "male" and "female" makes the concept of gender entirely meaningless in regards to situations like these, which revolve around presumptions(Edit: and the biology) of sex.
B
bomb
Unconfirmed Member
LOL Nattaphon lost to two girls that were born girls. What a loser.
WaterAstro
Member
"The Men's English Football team loses the World Cup... again."
"The Men's English Football team identifies themselves as Women and finally win the (Women's) World Cup!"
Butterfly Witch
Member
Not the point.
The point is that the same code can be interpreted differently. Following your example, XY tends to imply male and XX tends to imply female but it doesn't always work that way since there are other factors that influence it.
infinitys_7th
Member
No, it is not. Sex is determined by chromosomes, gender by brain structure in the context of society.
Male human = has a Y sex chromosome (mostly for SRY)
Female human = does not have a sex chromosome
Man = identifies as a traditional male gender
Woman = identifies as a traditional female gender
A man can be female, and a woman can be male. This is simple scientific fact.
cyberheater
PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
It's progressive bullshite
I understand the principles of equality etc. but this is straight up nonsense.
I understand the principles of equality etc. but this is straight up nonsense.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
The fastest female 200m time of all time isn't in the top 3000 fastest mens times. In fact, it's a full second behind:
http://www.alltime-athletics.com/m_200ok.htm
http://www.alltime-athletics.com/w_200ok.htm
cpp_is_king
Member
Just curious, if Floyd Mayweather or someone started identifying as female, could he go and compete in women's boxing? I mean, wouldn't want to be unfair.
We can do this all day with the hypothetical examples, bottom line is that a line has to be drawn somewhere, the goal should not be to fair to everyone because it's literally impossible. The goal should be to be fair to the most people.
We can do this all day with the hypothetical examples, bottom line is that a line has to be drawn somewhere, the goal should not be to fair to everyone because it's literally impossible. The goal should be to be fair to the most people.
LizardKing
Member
How is what gender a person identifies as meaningless? Can it change? Sure. Doesn't mean it's meaningless. Maybe the problem is your definition of gender isn't correct. It is precisely what someone identifies as. By identifying as a woman, that person is a woman by gender. That is exactly what makes this question of competitive sports so difficult. And like people above me said, is why you are going to exclude some who identify as women in women's sports. If Mayweather became a women, you aren't letting him box women. You can't be fair to everyone and by trying to make it fair to transwomen, you are making it unfair to biological women.
I'm thinking that it may be that we'll have to set up rules like "at least two years on hormones" or something if we're going to keep these sex/gender divisions.
Otherwise, we'll have to come up with some other system of division based on relative mass and/or performance rather than sex or gender.
Otherwise, we'll have to come up with some other system of division based on relative mass and/or performance rather than sex or gender.
Chromosomes aren't the hard-and-fast rule you think they are.
It's actually more note worthy that it was Nattaphon's very first season even training for the sport, and she managed those rankings.
Scholarship to college that costs almost 100k?
Absolutely. Differing definitions on people's fundamental beliefs seems to be the cause of most debates like these on neogaf.
Rabbi_Vole
Banned
Acceptance.
UnemployedVillain
Member
Tends to being overwhelmingly points to aside from an incredibly small number of times in people with mutations. A look on "intersex" wiki shows that
If your point is that nothing in nature is absolute then yes, I guess you're right
Wow, that's pretty eye-opening. Thank you for the information!
I would have thought that there would be a gap at the top ranks, that there'd at least be some overlap, just through advances in training, nutition, etc. This does indeed make the situation a lot more complex
But those factors are largely very rare or irrelevant in the context of this debate.
Males have genetics that confer physical advantage. That is a fact regardless of which chromosome you think it comes from or how the genetics behind it works. Any male that decides they are female will still have developed all of the genetic advantages in their physiology for physical activity. It will take years for hormones to change muscle structure and even then, this probably won't be very effective because all hormone replacement just isn't as good as hormones synthesised by your own body.
Reading that seems like just a long way of saying what I already believe.
Sex and Gender is not the same thing
Disenfranchising and denying places to a handful of biological girls for a handful of transgender girls is progress?
Trojita
Rapid Response Threadmaker
You just don't understand Sho_Nuff, women just haven't been running as long as men!
That's exactly what I address in my post though. Having gender simply be a title makes it have absolutely no relevance in situations regarding human biology and societies presumptions about it.
Rabbi_Vole
Banned
It's a rare exception and not worth working everyone into a froth.
Your binary vision of the matter is what's discouraging (either for or against it), basically pinning me as a anti-transgender because I won't ignore biological facts and widely accepted scientific notions.
The question would also be when to enforce those rules. It would seem a bit extreme for something like highschool track running. (Then again, cisgender girls could feel discouraged to compete if they feel like they're disadvantaged...)
I expect these instances to increase if our society keeps to become more open and accepting.
The declaration is one element, it is independent of the district's considerations on other issues of "conduct."
I just mean when I read For the purposes of gender identification for interscholastic activities, the district will consider the gender identity based on..." I see that as very wishy-washy, turning gender into the district's judgement call should someone protest an athlete's competing.
It means that a person's gender identity is tied up in how the school district feels about that person.
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